Merseyrail potential expansion if 777 battery capacity can be boosted

[Wtloild]

I thought there were a whole load of plans for Merseyrail expansion that had been put on hold pending trials of battery 777s proving these expansions could be done considerably cheaper than extending the 3rd rail network, e.g.:

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves
Ormskirk to Preston
Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Bidston to Ellesmere Port
etc.

Surely therefore they should be trialling such bigger batteries?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves

Am I missing something, or does this involve relaying former trackbed?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves

Am I missing something, or does this involve relaying former trackbed?

No. You're not missing something. It has a thread (or a number of threads) of its own - e.g. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...and-what-services-should-run-along-it.215822/

 

[urbophile]

Am I missing something, or does this involve relaying former trackbed?

Yes but not a lot.

 

[507021]

I thought there were a whole load of plans for Merseyrail expansion that had been put on hold pending trials of battery 777s proving these expansions could be done considerably cheaper than extending the 3rd rail network, e.g.:

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves
Ormskirk to Preston
Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Bidston to Ellesmere Port
etc.

Surely therefore they should be trialling such bigger batteries?

The trial is to make sure the concept is actually viable.

Once they have the results they'll know if they have a business case to justify purchasing bigger, more expensive batteries.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bidston to Ellesmere Port

Is that correct? Seems a peculiar service to add the Merseyrail when it can be done with a single change at Hamilton Square, and a direct service would involve going round the loop or reversing at James Street. Did you mean to type "Wrexham" rather than Ellesmere Port?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Is that correct? Seems a peculiar service to add the Merseyrail when it can be done with a single change at Hamilton Square, and a direct service would involve going round the loop or reversing at James Street. Did you mean to type "Wrexham" rather than Ellesmere Port?

Or Ellesmere Port to Helsby?

 

[MattRat]

I thought there were a whole load of plans for Merseyrail expansion that had been put on hold pending trials of battery 777s proving these expansions could be done considerably cheaper than extending the 3rd rail network, e.g.:

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves
Ormskirk to Preston
Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Bidston to Ellesmere Port
etc.

Surely therefore they should be trialling such bigger batteries?

Depends on the route. Ellesmere Port to Helsby for example, would only require small batteries. Plus, the station is actually a better interchange than the current stop, with both services getting two platforms instead of one, while also being on separate track.

 

[507020]

I thought there were a whole load of plans for Merseyrail expansion that had been put on hold pending trials of battery 777s proving these expansions could be done considerably cheaper than extending the 3rd rail network, e.g.:

Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough curves
Ormskirk to Preston
Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate
Bidston to Ellesmere Port
etc.

Surely therefore they should be trialling such bigger batteries?

Yes exactly. Southport to Ormskirk and Preston and Headbolt Lane to Skelmersdale. Can’t get better than that in terms of cost:benefit ratio.

Am I missing something, or does this involve relaying former trackbed?

In what way is it former trackbed. It is still very much the trackbed of the Burscough Curves, albeit without the track present, but still owned by Network Rail and it hasn’t been built on. It would be less than 1 mile of single track to relay, a bit of signalling and a pair of crossovers adjacent to Burscough Bridge station. The points could be controlled from the existing signal box. If they were clever about it they could run Southport-Preston and Ormskirk-Preston services without even redoubling the track north of Ormskirk. Do you have some sort of objection to what would be an extremely beneficial scheme to Southport and it’s residents, particularly those with hospital appointments in Ormskirk or who are trying to travel north to any one of a whole multitude of destinations including Preston, Blackpool (for Lytham St Anne’s and Fleetwood), Lancaster, Morecambe (including Heysham Port for the Isle of Man), Barrow in Furness, Oxenholme (Kendal and Windermere!), Penrith, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as south to Maghull and Aintree, not to mention intermediate stations between Ormskirk, Preston and Southport gaining new and more reliable services between each other.

 

[Grumpy Git]

In what way is it former trackbed. It is still very much the trackbed of the Burscough Curves, albeit without the track present, but still owned by Network Rail and it hasn’t been built on. ........

Do you have some sort of objection to what would be an extremely beneficial scheme to Southport and it’s residents, ..........

Wow, quite a reaction and jump from a simple question, (as I was not able to see any 'curves' with track on current OS maps around Burscough).

Your second sentence alone would have sufficed thank you.

 

[507021]

Do you have some sort of objection to what would be an extremely beneficial scheme to Southport and it’s residents,

I think the people of Skelmersdale's need for a rail link is far more pressing than re-opening the Burscough Curves.

 

[Wtloild]

I think the people of Skelmersdale's need for a rail link is far more pressing than re-opening the Burscough Curves

Probably, but I'd presume any track laid to Skem would be electrified, so wouldn't require 777s to run on battery.
Without a lot of additional electrification, Burscough curves would require 777s to run on battery.

 

[507020]

Wow, quite a reaction and jump from a simple question, (as I was not able to see any 'curves' with track on current OS maps around Burscough).

Your second sentence alone would have sufficed thank you.

Sorry if I appear defensive but I am very disappointed as I raised the issue of the Burscough Curves in this thread a few weeks ago and received an extremely unenthusiastic response. Now I’ve seen that another member has asked the same question as I did only for it to be dismissed again because less than 1 mile of track still needs urgently reinstating.

As a resident of Southport with some desire to travel to both Ormskirk and Preston there isn’t another topic I feel more strongly about. I have a suspicion that if a Borough of Southport existed and followed the boundaries of the 01704 telephone area code (i.e. including the location of the Burscough Curves), rather than what currently exists (the metropolitan county of Merseyside being less than 4 miles wide at its northernmost extremity) they would have reopened in the 1970s.

I think the people of Skelmersdale's need for a rail link is far more pressing than re-opening the Burscough Curves.

I disagree. Southport has more than double the population of Skelmersdale and reopening the Burscough curves would also benefit the residents of Meols Cop, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Burscough, Rufford, Croston and Midge Hall (if reopened), as all intermediate stations along the route would gain new and/or more frequent and reliable services to Southport, Ormskirk and Preston. Through services at Ormskirk would also benefit the residents of Aughton, Maghull and Aintree, as well as anyone wishing to travel there.

There is absolutely no excuse for the Burscough curves to remain closed in this day and age, whether the service is Diesel or battery operated. Being forced to change stations at either Burscough or Wigan to reach Preston from Southport is totally unacceptable, as is travelling over an hour out of your way to Sandhills to reach Ormskirk. Bus journey times from Southport to Preston and Ormskirk are also totally unacceptable. Travelling via Wigan also puts you at the mercy of Greater Manchester evening peak fares and should therefore be avoided unless travelling to another destination in Greater Manchester.

Skelmersdale, while it also urgently needs doing, actually inconveniences some passengers at intermediate stations, for example anyone travelling between Rainford and Upholland, which is quite a common journey on that line, will now have to change at Skelmersdale, more than doubling their journey time, but of course passengers from Rainford to Liverpool will no longer have to change at Kirkby (or Headbolt Lane) and will have a more frequent service, so there’s a trade off somewhere.

There’s a clear preference for electrification to be extended to Headbolt Lane and Skelmersdale, but this hasn’t yet been agreed. If the Kirkby line is “converted” to be 100% operated by 777s (including 8 car services), then I don’t expect the 3rd rail will ever be extended, as there will be no requirement for the remaining 507s to ever run past Kirkby and at least some 777s will be equipped with batteries. The Metrolink has a fleet where some trams are not equipped with certain equipment required to traverse some lines, so my expectation is that initially only a few “Kirkby” units will be fitted with batteries, including a few spares and these will be confined to the Kirkby line. When more are ordered to run services to Skelmersdale, round the Burscough Curves and to Helsby etc the the number with batteries will increase and these will be used interchangeably. A Warrington extension may see a small number of 25kV AC fitted units if the CLC line is electrified, or additional battery units which transfer to other battery routes when the CLC line is electrified, perhaps if this coincided with the reopening of the Burscough Curves. I wonder if these will be designated 777/1 or 777/2 to prevent confusion.

There are infinite possibilities with the new technologies this new fleet provides. The reopening of the Burscough Curves is one of the most beneficial and most not be ignored. I should also mention the much missed Gateacre service. From what I’ve seen the traffic in Gateacre is dreadful. On a side note I’ve noticed no one seems to be proposing to reinstate a rail link to Leigh, which is in fact the largest town in the North West without a railway, not Skelmersdale. (Don’t get me started on the guided busway!)

I am not happy with the present situation at all and can’t wait for it to be rectified!

 

[frodshamfella]

Sorry if I appear defensive but I am very disappointed as I raised the issue of the Burscough Curves in this thread a few weeks ago and received an extremely unenthusiastic response. Now I’ve seen that another member has asked the same question as I did only for it to be dismissed again because less than 1 mile of track still needs urgently reinstating.

As a resident of Southport with some desire to travel to both Ormskirk and Preston there isn’t another topic I feel more strongly about. I have a suspicion that if a Borough of Southport existed and followed the boundaries of the 01704 telephone area code (i.e. including the location of the Burscough Curves), rather than what currently exists (the metropolitan county of Merseyside being less than 4 miles wide at its northernmost extremity) they would have reopened in the 1970s.

I disagree. Southport has more than double the population of Skelmersdale and reopening the Burscough curves would also benefit the residents of Meols Cop, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Burscough, Rufford, Croston and Midge Hall (if reopened), as all intermediate stations along the route would gain new and/or more frequent and reliable services to Southport, Ormskirk and Preston. Through services at Ormskirk would also benefit the residents of Aughton, Maghull and Aintree, as well as anyone wishing to travel there.

There is absolutely no excuse for the Burscough curves to remain closed in this day and age, whether the service is Diesel or battery operated. Being forced to change stations at either Burscough or Wigan to reach Preston from Southport is totally unacceptable, as is travelling over an hour out of your way to Sandhills to reach Ormskirk. Bus journey times from Southport to Preston and Ormskirk are also totally unacceptable. Travelling via Wigan also puts you at the mercy of Greater Manchester evening peak fares and should therefore be avoided unless travelling to another destination in Greater Manchester.

Skelmersdale, while it also urgently needs doing, actually inconveniences some passengers at intermediate stations, for example anyone travelling between Rainford and Upholland, which is quite a common journey on that line, will now have to change at Skelmersdale, more than doubling their journey time, but of course passengers from Rainford to Liverpool will no longer have to change at Kirkby (or Headbolt Lane) and will have a more frequent service, so there’s a trade off somewhere.

There’s a clear preference for electrification to be extended to Headbolt Lane and Skelmersdale, but this hasn’t yet been agreed. If the Kirkby line is “converted” to be 100% operated by 777s (including 8 car services), then I don’t expect the 3rd rail will ever be extended, as there will be no requirement for the remaining 507s to ever run past Kirkby and at least some 777s will be equipped with batteries. The Metrolink has a fleet where some trams are not equipped with certain equipment required to traverse some lines, so my expectation is that initially only a few “Kirkby” units will be fitted with batteries, including a few spares and these will be confined to the Kirkby line. When more are ordered to run services to Skelmersdale, round the Burscough Curves and to Helsby etc the the number with batteries will increase and these will be used interchangeably. A Warrington extension may see a small number of 25kV AC fitted units if the CLC line is electrified, or additional battery units which transfer to other battery routes when the CLC line is electrified, perhaps if this coincided with the reopening of the Burscough Curves. I wonder if these will be designated 777/1 or 777/2 to prevent confusion.

There are infinite possibilities with the new technologies this new fleet provides. The reopening of the Burscough Curves is one of the most beneficial and most not be ignored. I should also mention the much missed Gateacre service. From what I’ve seen the traffic in Gateacre is dreadful. On a side note I’ve noticed no one seems to be proposing to reinstate a rail link to Leigh, which is in fact the largest town in the North West without a railway, not Skelmersdale. (Don’t get me started on the guided busway!)

I am not happy with the present situation at all and can’t wait for it to be rectified!

It was a bit shame the Northern Line only got to Hunts Cross and not Gateacre as planned, the traffic is horrendous now. I passed that way on Saturday, on leaving Hunts Cross, I couldn't make out where the line would have gone, its looks very overgrown. If it was possible, it would be just a short but useful hop for the 777s.

 

[TheSel]

... I couldn't make out where the line would have gone, its looks very overgrown...

It's now part of the Liverpool Loop Line foot/cycle path. See screen grab (below) from Google Maps - the curves sweep away north of the line roughly half way between Hunts Cross and Halewood, through what's shown as 'Halewood Park'.

Actually, it's a nice walk - you can follow the old Cheshire Lines railway alignment through the site of Gateacre Station, and on through Childwall, under the M62 (and the current Liverpool - Huyton - St Helens / Wigan lines), Knotty Ash, over the East Lancs Road (A580), and pretty well all the way to just shy of Aintree Station.

 

[507020]

It's now part of the Liverpool Loop Line foot/cycle path. See screen grab (below) from Google Maps - the curves sweep away north of the line roughly half way between Hunts Cross and Halewood, through what's shown as 'Halewood Park'.

Actually, it's a nice walk - you can follow the old Cheshire Lines railway alignment through the site of Gateacre Station, and on through Childwall, under the M62 (and the current Liverpool - Huyton - St Helens / Wigan lines), Knotty Ash, over the East Lancs Road (A580), and pretty well all the way to just shy of Aintree Station.

You can get all the way to Southport if you make your way through Aintree to Sefton Lane, Maghull, beyond Switch Island. It’s about 26 miles the whole way. The Cheshire Lines Commitee insisted the North Liverpool Extension trackbed was built to 4 track width for easy expansion, but 4 tracks never actually materialised before the line was closed, so it would be easy to reopen while retaining the parallel foot/cycle path the whole way.

It’s a shame Gateacre and the rest of the North Liverpool Extension doesn’t have a pressure group campaigning for it. Knotty Ash station would be useful for Alder Hey hospital and Broad Green could become an interchange.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can get all the way to Southport if you make your way through Aintree to Sefton Lane, Maghull, beyond Switch Island. It’s about 26 miles the whole way. The Cheshire Lines Commitee insisted the North Liverpool Extension trackbed was built to 4 track width for easy expansion, but 4 tracks never actually materialised before the line was closed, so it would be easy to reopen while retaining the parallel foot/cycle path the whole way.

It’s a shame Gateacre and the rest of the North Liverpool Extension doesn’t have a pressure group campaigning for it. Knotty Ash station would be useful for Alder Hey hospital and Broad Green could become an interchange.

The issue is that the bus would be quicker into town from quite a few stations along the way as it's rather circuitous. Gateacre does need doing though.

On the other hand rail does sometimes win out anyway - the Eccles Metrolink line is a prime example.

 

[frodshamfella]

It's now part of the Liverpool Loop Line foot/cycle path. See screen grab (below) from Google Maps - the curves sweep away north of the line roughly half way between Hunts Cross and Halewood, through what's shown as 'Halewood Park'.

Actually, it's a nice walk - you can follow the old Cheshire Lines railway alignment through the site of Gateacre Station, and on through Childwall, under the M62 (and the current Liverpool - Huyton - St Helens / Wigan lines), Knotty Ash, over the East Lancs Road (A580), and pretty well all the way to just shy of Aintree Station.

View attachment 97847

Yes can make out where it went, thanks. Looks like there was a branch eastwards too, towards Halewood.

 

[507021]

Probably, but I'd presume any track laid to Skem would be electrified, so wouldn't require 777s to run on battery.
Without a lot of additional electrification, Burscough curves would require 777s to run on battery.

I'm not sure, Stadler's FLIRT Akku BEMU has recently demonstrated a range of over 100 miles.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the Skelmersdale branch wasn't electrified.

 

[MattRat]

I'm not sure, Stadler's FLIRT Akku BEMU has recently demonstrated a range of over 100 miles.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the Skelmersdale branch wasn't electrified.

Doesn't the wider loading gauge give them the ability to have a larger battery though? The BEMU 777 would then have smaller batteries, limiting what routes it can do.

 

[507021]

Doesn't the wider loading gauge give them the ability to have a larger battery though? The BEMU 777 would then have smaller batteries, limiting what routes it can do.

Yes. However that figure shows that a decent range can still be achieved by smaller or less batteries.

An educated guess on range based on the proposed trial between Ormskirk and Preston is 30 or 40 miles. The 777s also have provision for a pantograph so I expect any future third rail will be limited to the aspired termini for battery charging purposes.

 

[MattRat]

Yes. However that figure shows that a decent range can still be achieved by smaller or less batteries.

An educated guess on range based on the proposed trial between Ormskirk and Preston is 30 or 40 miles. The 777s also have provision for a pantograph so I expect any future third rail will be limited to the aspired termini for battery charging purposes.

Pretty certain the pantographs and batteries can't be equipped at the same time, at least for now.

 

[Skie]

Pretty certain the pantographs and batteries can't be equipped at the same time, at least for now.

Pans can, it’s the 25kv equipment which can’t as it occupies the same under frame space as the batteries would.

Does mean battery + 750v dc ole is an option for infilling/charging if other options don’t pan out.

 

[507021]

Pans can, it’s the 25kv equipment which can’t as it occupies the same under frame space as the batteries would.

Does mean battery + 750v dc ole is an option for infilling/charging if other options don’t pan out.

Thanks for that explanation, much appreciated.

I don't suppose you know what sort of range they'd have in battery mode?

 

[Skie]

Thanks for that explanation, much appreciated.

I don't suppose you know what sort of range they'd have in battery mode?

Finding that out is what the tests are for

 

[Gareth]

The issue is that the bus would be quicker into town from quite a few stations along the way as it's rather circuitous. Gateacre does need doing though.

I'm not sure, you know. I think it would depend on the time of day. When I used to commute in from West Derby by bus, it took a good hour, door to door. You had the village, which was snarled up, then the Jolly Miller junction, also snarled up and then the big 5 mph crawl into town from around Boundary Ln onwards, where the dual carriageway becomes single.

Off peak, maybe not so much. Ideally, much of East Liverpool could do with a tramway, directly replacing the bus routes 18 & 12/13. Although Merseytram was a bit weird when it came to the fine detail, the broad principle was sound.

 

[MattRat]

I'm not sure, you know. I think it would depend on the time of day. When I used to commute in from West Derby by bus, it took a good hour, door to door. You had the village, which was snarled up, then the Jolly Miller junction, also snarled up and then the big 5 mph crawl into town from around Boundary Ln onwards, where the dual carriageway becomes single.

Off peak, maybe not so much. Ideally, much of East Liverpool could do with a tramway, directly replacing the bus routes 18 & 12/13. Although Merseytram was a bit weird when it came to the fine detail, the broad principle was sound.

Weymouth had 'mainline' tracks in it's road system. Add in the pantograph system on the 777's, and it might help solidify the idea.

 

[507021]

Finding that out is what the tests are for

Fair point!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2021 ==

I'm not sure, you know. I think it would depend on the time of day. When I used to commute in from West Derby by bus, it took a good hour, door to door. You had the village, which was snarled up, then the Jolly Miller junction, also snarled up and then the big 5 mph crawl into town from around Boundary Ln onwards, where the dual carriageway becomes single.

Off peak, maybe not so much. Ideally, much of East Liverpool could do with a tramway, directly replacing the bus routes 18 & 12/13. Although Merseytram was a bit weird when it came to the fine detail, the broad principle was sound.

A sound idea, but I think the Canada Dock Branch could play a big part in that too. It'd take a lot of pressure off the Tuebrook, Breck Road and County Road corridors in addition to the buses serving Anfield on match days.

I know it's not as simple as it sounds on paper, but it's still a reasonably cheap solution. The cost/benefit ratio is huge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2021 ==

Weymouth had 'mainline' tracks in it's road system. Add in the pantograph system on the 777's, and it might help solidify the idea.

Heavy rail trains running through the streets of Liverpool?

I've heard it all now.

 

[MattRat]

Heavy rail trains running through the streets of Liverpool?

I've heard it all now.

Well what other city has a heavy rail metro system? Liverpool has never exactly followed the norm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well what other city has a heavy rail metro system? Liverpool has never exactly followed the norm.

Erm, LU is a heavy rail metro system!

Having it on street isn't really workable, though, unless you got some tram-trains in.