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About HS2

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The Ham

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If it was financially viable then the private sector would fund it, or at least part of it.

It's funded by the tax payer because it's so uneconomic that no business or private investors would invest.

The costs have increased so much that if it were run by the private sector the whole project would have been cancelled by now.

Part of the changes in the costs is down to inflation (which all business have to deal with), however even excluding that another part of the change in costs is down to moving the cost of the trains from the operator's costs to the build costs. This then appears to make the scheme more expensive, but then means that the running costs then reduce accordingly, so results in no change to the business case.

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HS2 is basically the GCML "re-imagined".

Indeed
 
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lachlan

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Sounds interesting, did you keep the excellent principle of designing it economically so it was at least half-way financially viable and could secure investment from the private sector?

Ahh, no sorry, you said it was very much like HS2 so that can't be right! Blank cheque required.
How would you go about "designing it economically"?
 

Ianno87

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If it was financially viable then the private sector would fund it, or at least part of it.

It's funded by the tax payer because it's so uneconomic that no business or private investors would invest.

The costs have increased so much that if it were run by the private sector the whole project would have been cancelled by now.

Because the return on the investment is experienced by the overall UK economy many decades down the line. And that still holds true with the current cost of the scheme.
 

Stephen Lee

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When you build a high speed railway, you are trying to solve two different problems.

The first, which is what a lot of new build high speed lines try for (where there wasn't previously a line) is to cut journey times. This can attract air passengers onto rail, can speed up journeys, and offer new journeys. The channel tunnel and HS1 fall into this category.

The second category is capacity reasons, and usually these are built where an existing line is already full. HS2 falls into this category. You take off the highest speed trains, and put them onto their own tracks. These fast trains can run faster on new, dedicated infrastructure, and they don't get held up at flat junctions or stuck behind a freight. Journey times improve.

But as a side effect, you've removed all the high speed trains from a full railway. The remaining trains are slower, they all stop at the same places, and you don't have to get out of the way of fast trains any more. Suddenly, you can run a lot more trains on the existing route, be it freight or passenger trains.

HS2 will remove all the long distance, high speed passenger trains full of intercity passengers, and put them on their own line. The space freed up can benefit container trains from the haven ports, or local journeys from Manchester to Birmingham, or a cleaner timetable for London commuters.

Crosscountry benefits because a lot of the faster trains have gone. There is more space at Birmingham for their trains, less other trains to fit around. Also, when the lines to Manchester and Leeds open, a lot of the intercity passengers will.love onto HS2, meaning the existing trains can stop more often and carry more medium distance journeys, such as Sheffield to Leeds.
However XC needs extra Class 221 and 222s for extra capacity in their IC routes
 

Tobbes

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All of the "reopen the GC" stuff has been done to death, and the result is (usually) that HS2 is the appropriate solution for two more tracks on the southern WCML.

However, a more modest proposal GC proposal - linked to significant housebuilding and new towns - would be to go from Quainton - Calvert - Buckingham - Brackley - Rugby with an optional spur to Banbury. When I say "significant", I'm talking 200,000+ homes over 10 years, with most of the area in scope of <60 mins commute to London or Birmingham. You'd still have the problem of terminal capacity at Marylebone (and I don't know how to fix that though some of the re-open the GC brigade presumably have thought about it)
 

MarkyT

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All of the "reopen the GC" stuff has been done to death, and the result is (usually) that HS2 is the appropriate solution for two more tracks on the southern WCML.

However, a more modest proposal GC proposal - linked to significant housebuilding and new towns - would be to go from Quainton - Calvert - Buckingham - Brackley - Rugby with an optional spur to Banbury. When I say "significant", I'm talking 200,000+ homes over 10 years, with most of the area in scope of <60 mins commute to London or Birmingham. You'd still have the problem of terminal capacity at Marylebone (and I don't know how to fix that though some of the re-open the GC brigade presumably have thought about it)
If some Chiltern services can be redirected to Old Oak Common rather than Marylebone, total terminal capacity will be increased.
 

Stephen Lee

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All of the "reopen the GC" stuff has been done to death, and the result is (usually) that HS2 is the appropriate solution for two more tracks on the southern WCML.

However, a more modest proposal GC proposal - linked to significant housebuilding and new towns - would be to go from Quainton - Calvert - Buckingham - Brackley - Rugby with an optional spur to Banbury. When I say "significant", I'm talking 200,000+ homes over 10 years, with most of the area in scope of <60 mins commute to London or Birmingham. You'd still have the problem of terminal capacity at Marylebone (and I don't know how to fix that though some of the re-open the GC brigade presumably have thought about it)
Marylebone will be less congested once Old Oak Common is built I believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Which they will likely get when Avanti introduce their 805/7s, that is completely unrelated to HS2.
XC will also likely to get 222s from EMR Intercity once 810s were introduced.
 

The Planner

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All of the "reopen the GC" stuff has been done to death, and the result is (usually) that HS2 is the appropriate solution for two more tracks on the southern WCML.

However, a more modest proposal GC proposal - linked to significant housebuilding and new towns - would be to go from Quainton - Calvert - Buckingham - Brackley - Rugby with an optional spur to Banbury. When I say "significant", I'm talking 200,000+ homes over 10 years, with most of the area in scope of <60 mins commute to London or Birmingham. You'd still have the problem of terminal capacity at Marylebone (and I don't know how to fix that though some of the re-open the GC brigade presumably have thought about it)
That is a mixture of lines and new bits, there wasn't a curve to get to the Buckingham line from Calvert nor a connection from that to the GC at/near Brackley. Buckingham would be better off just having a spur off E-W and changing for London at Bletchley. Steeple Claydon has passive provision for a station as I have mentioned in the past. It would be interesting to know where the "pull" is for Bletchley, is it Oxford, MK, Northampton or to a smaller extent, Banbury. You are going to need something decent to compete with the A43.
If some Chiltern services can be redirected to Old Oak Common rather than Marylebone, total terminal capacity will be increased.
Marylebone will be less congested once Old Oak Common is built I believe.
Not sure how Marylebone will be less congested, nothing is committed about Chiltern getting down to OOC (which from what I am hearing, they won't get to the HS2/GW station anyway.)
 

CW2

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All of the "reopen the GC" stuff has been done to death, and the result is (usually) that HS2 is the appropriate solution for two more tracks on the southern WCML.

However, a more modest proposal GC proposal - linked to significant housebuilding and new towns - would be to go from Quainton - Calvert - Buckingham - Brackley - Rugby with an optional spur to Banbury.
I still don't see how this would connect with the layout at Rugby, with the GC alignment being at 90 degrees to the WCML and at a higher level, running through a residential area.
 

JonathanH

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I still don't see how this would connect with the layout at Rugby, with the GC alignment being at 90 degrees to the WCML and at a higher level, running through a residential area.
An alternative approach to Rugby to the south of Hillmorton and the Oxford Canal would appear to be needed - depends which way it is intended to point - this would work for Birmingham but obviously not London.
 

6Gman

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If it was financially viable then the private sector would fund it, or at least part of it.

It's funded by the tax payer because it's so uneconomic that no business or private investors would invest.

The costs have increased so much that if it were run by the private sector the whole project would have been cancelled by now.
The private sector would only fund it if there were excessive and guaranteed returns - think of some of those hospital private finance initiatives that are now crippling health trusts up and down the country.

Given the ease with which, and terms on which, government can borrow money it makes much more sense for major infrastructure projects to be funded that way.
 

adamedwards

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Given HS2 is now under construction with tunnels being bored, can we have a Great Central and Woodhead thread in a new Speculative Nostalgia section? Also to be used for the GWR Dawlish bypass and any other alternative histories? I can't wait to see HS2 completed in full so I can have more local trains on the East Coast main line.
 

Ianno87

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Given HS2 is now under construction with tunnels being bored, can we have a Great Central and Woodhead thread in a new Speculative Nostalgia section? Also to be used for the GWR Dawlish bypass and any other alternative histories? I can't wait to see HS2 completed in full so I can have more local trains on the East Coast main line.

The "reopen the Great Central" debate will still be going when the first fare-paying passengers are on HS2 trains!
 

NoRoute

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Because the return on the investment is experienced by the overall UK economy many decades down the line. And that still holds true with the current cost of the scheme.

There was a good quote on a BBC article, from the permanent secretary of DfT on passenger demand:
We do not actually know what demand will be like in six months or six years

Yet despite not knowing simple passenger demand even a short period into the future, it is supposedly possible to estimate it over many decades, considering its economic value, effects on wider economic activity and the UK economy as a whole. Clearly it isn't.

No organisation or experts can know the shape of the UK economy over that time period, how the economy or working patterns will change so any attempt to estimate and quantify the benefits that far into the future involves so much uncertainty it makes the outcome more dependent on the model and the assumptions than reality, you can make figures support whatever outcome you want.

The "reopen the Great Central" debate will still be going when the first fare-paying passengers are on HS2 trains!

We can only hope that passenger numbers have recovered by that point such that there's sufficient fare revenue available to support both the existing network and HS2, otherwise I fear the debate will have moved onto saving parts of the existing network ear marked for closure.
 
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lachlan

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There was a good quote on a BBC article, from the permanent secretary of DfT on passenger demand:


Yet despite not knowing simple passenger demand even a short period into the future, it is supposedly possible to estimate it over many decades, considering its economic value, effects on wider economic activity and the UK economy as a whole. Clearly it isn't.

No organisation or experts can know the shape of the UK economy over that time period, how the economy or working patterns will change so any attempt to estimate and quantify the benefits that far into the future involves so much uncertainty it makes the outcome more dependent on the model and the assumptions than reality, you can make figures support whatever outcome you want.
We do not know what demand will be but we do know that to meet climate targets and improve life in cities we must drive and fly less and get more freight going by train. It'll be much harder to do this without extra rail capacity.
 

Ianno87

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There was a good quote on a BBC article, from the permanent secretary of DfT on passenger demand:


Yet despite not knowing simple passenger demand even a short period into the future, it is supposedly possible to estimate it over many decades, considering its economic value, effects on wider economic activity and the UK economy as a whole. Clearly it isn't.

No organisation or experts can know the shape of the UK economy over that time period, how the economy or working patterns will change so any attempt to estimate and quantify the benefits that far into the future involves so much uncertainty it makes the outcome more dependent on the model and the assumptions than reality, you can make figures support whatever outcome you want.

OK, so we stop HS2 and then demand returns. Then what?

Stopping and restarting HS2 now would take years and cost billions. We'd need much more certainty of demand not returning to justify that.

Best to just get on with it, and not get caught with trousers down in a few years time.

The one certainty is that population and demand for travel always grows. Pandemics and world wars have never stopped this before.
 

Bald Rick

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Yet despite not knowing simple passenger demand even a short period into the future, it is supposedly possible to estimate it over many decades, considering its economic value, effects on wider economic activity and the UK economy as a whole. Clearly it isn't.

In which case we wouldn’t do any rail investment, ever.
 

CW2

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That's a bit ambitious.

From a construction / design viewpoint, you need to cross the M45, the A5, and possibly the A45, as well as several other minor roads.

Your connection to the WCML would need to be grade separated, so you need a separate alignment (and room for it to curve around) for the up line as well as the down line.
From a railway operations / signalling viewpoint, the Rugby area is tremendously constrained by the need for high speed junctions and turnouts to minimise the effect on following non-stop trains of any trains decelerating to a stop at Rugby. In effect, to bolt on a new junction south of Hillmorton you would need to un-pick all the careful design of the existing layout and decide what you want to sacrifice in order to achieve this. So finding somewhere on the map to draw your notional location for a junction might be the easy bit compared with trying to make it work from a railway signalling viewpoint (at least without massive loss of capacity through Rugby).
 

Tobbes

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That's a bit ambitious.

From a construction / design viewpoint, you need to cross the M45, the A5, and possibly the A45, as well as several other minor roads.

Your connection to the WCML would need to be grade separated, so you need a separate alignment (and room for it to curve around) for the up line as well as the down line.
From a railway operations / signalling viewpoint, the Rugby area is tremendously constrained by the need for high speed junctions and turnouts to minimise the effect on following non-stop trains of any trains decelerating to a stop at Rugby. In effect, to bolt on a new junction south of Hillmorton you would need to un-pick all the careful design of the existing layout and decide what you want to sacrifice in order to achieve this. So finding somewhere on the map to draw your notional location for a junction might be the easy bit compared with trying to make it work from a railway signalling viewpoint (at least without massive loss of capacity through Rugby).
Thanks, this is helpful. I saw it as a post-HS2 intervention (and therefore that the LDHS services would have been migrated to HS2) and the idea was simply to provide infrastructure to support commuting to both Birmingham/broader West Midlands as well as London - helpful to have some realistic constraints on it!
 

The Planner

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From a railway operations / signalling viewpoint, the Rugby area is tremendously constrained by the need for high speed junctions and turnouts to minimise the effect on following non-stop trains of any trains decelerating to a stop at Rugby.
And we already know it doesn't do that in the down direction! Still on the list to be fixed.
 

CW2

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And we already know it doesn't do that in the down direction! Still on the list to be fixed.
We wrung the absolute maximum out of it with the existing signalling technology, so I think any improvement will depend on in-cab signalling.
In planning terms some formalising of the headway behind a train stopping at Rugby is needed - if it hasn't been done already. 4 minutes just about works.
 

The Ham

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There was a good quote on a BBC article, from the permanent secretary of DfT on passenger demand:


Yet despite not knowing simple passenger demand even a short period into the future, it is supposedly possible to estimate it over many decades, considering its economic value, effects on wider economic activity and the UK economy as a whole. Clearly it isn't.

No organisation or experts can know the shape of the UK economy over that time period, how the economy or working patterns will change so any attempt to estimate and quantify the benefits that far into the future involves so much uncertainty it makes the outcome more dependent on the model and the assumptions than reality, you can make figures support whatever outcome you want.



We can only hope that passenger numbers have recovered by that point such that there's sufficient fare revenue available to support both the existing network and HS2, otherwise I fear the debate will have moved onto saving parts of the existing network ear marked for closure.

Whilst we may not know the exact numbers we can be sure that it's unlikely that we'll be in a position where we'll be looking at what his of the railways we'll be needing to save (& even if we are it'll be very limited in nature).

How can I be so confident in this? It's due to the passenger numbers.

To explain I'll use the baseline of 100 passengers in 2009, by 2019 this had grown to 177 for the flows London West Midlands, London North East and London Scotland (i.e. those routes which would benefit most from HS2 phase 1).

Now to put that into perspective HS2 had used a model of 2.5% growth year on year, so by 2026 (& the opening of phase 1) from the baseline of 100 to 152.

Centrally rail usage has reached 50% of pre pandemic levels (1/2 of 177) so 89 compared to baseline of 100.

However it's unlikely to stop at 50%, at 60% (the worse case scenario predicted) we'd be back above 2009 passenger numbers at 106.

Given that in 2009 we were talking about expanding the network (and indeed we've spent over £30bn on enhancements in that time) any scaling back would likely result in reduction of services rather then the cutting of lines.

However, and neither you or I or anyone can be sure of the exact level, it's likely that rail use will be higher than 60%. Although for this year as a whole is possible that it won't be, however for 2022 it's likely that it will be.

Then it's just a case of how close to the previous 2026 prediction (152) do we get to:
65% would be 115
70% would be 124
75% would be 133
80% would be 142
Now before I go on, the above could happen, but would be unlikely (especially much beyond 2022) given that few companies are taking about 100% remote working with most expecting 2 or 3 days a week in the office and there's still plenty with 10-20% of their staff in at all currently.

As such to be less than 80% of pre pandemic levels commuting (which is about 70% of rail use) would need to have seen a net fall from 70% to 50% (or everyone who used to commuting working an average of 3.5 days in the office and zero people switching from cars). That figure is high for the very reason that there's always been quite large numbers of school children and collage or university students who use rail, that's before you consider those jobs which can't be done in person or those who prefer working in the office.

Back to the list:
85% would be 150
86% would mean we'd reach that prediction of 152
88% would be 156
90% would be 159

Whilst it's possible that those figures may not be reached in 2022, or 2023, there's a good chance that by the opening of phase 1 we could have exceeded the predictions.

Also worth noting is that, whilst likely to be small, reduced car use due to WFH could switch some to rail. For instance a couple with two cars, may change so that for one day a week one of them uses rail so that only need 1 car rather than 2.
 

The Planner

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We wrung the absolute maximum out of it with the existing signalling technology, so I think any improvement will depend on in-cab signalling.
In planning terms some formalising of the headway behind a train stopping at Rugby is needed - if it hasn't been done already. 4 minutes just about works.
It needs the flashing yellows moving off the half station route and putting on P1, that is where the mistake was made.
 

NoRoute

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Whilst we may not know the exact numbers we can be sure that it's unlikely that we'll be in a position where we'll be looking at what his of the railways we'll be needing to save (& even if we are it'll be very limited in nature).

How can I be so confident in this? It's due to the passenger numbers.

To explain I'll use the baseline of 100 passengers in 2009, by 2019 this had grown to 177 for the flows London West Midlands, London North East and London Scotland (i.e. those routes which would benefit most from HS2 phase 1).

Now to put that into perspective HS2 had used a model of 2.5% growth year on year, so by 2026 (& the opening of phase 1) from the baseline of 100 to 152.

Centrally rail usage has reached 50% of pre pandemic levels (1/2 of 177) so 89 compared to baseline of 100.

Everything depends on that growth assumption, if you assume something will grow on average each year forever then you can justify anything as being worthwhile in the long run, though it may still not make financial sense if you build it too early and it loses money for several decades.

That actually links in quite nicely with the points earlier in this thread about re-opening the GCML because the GCML project illustrates this beautifully, it was built in the expectation of future traffic growth from the north to London, which ultimately never materialised because the growth of the motor car sent the railways into long term decline, and while the infrastructure would eventually have been very useful, before that point was reached the losses made it unsustainable forcing its closure. I don't suggest that HS2 would be closed, but if passenger growth isn't sustained then financial pressures on the network will grow.

I think the big question for the railways will be whether COVID has accelerated video conferencing, remote and home working such that the those growth assumptions no longer hold. I wouldn't rule it out. In the space of 1 year video conferencing has advanced by a decade or more, its it's gone from an inconvenient oddity to being the default, a lot of business travel is now unnecessary and the high speed, efficient option for a meeting is a Teams or Zoom call.
 

lachlan

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Everything depends on that growth assumption, if you assume something will grow on average each year forever then you can justify anything as being worthwhile in the long run, though it may still not make financial sense if you build it too early and it loses money for several decades.

That actually links in quite nicely with the points earlier in this thread about re-opening the GCML because the GCML project illustrates this beautifully, it was built in the expectation of future traffic growth from the north to London, which ultimately never materialised because the growth of the motor car sent the railways into long term decline, and while the infrastructure would eventually have been very useful, before that point was reached the losses made it unsustainable forcing its closure. I don't suggest that HS2 would be closed, but if passenger growth isn't sustained then financial pressures on the network will grow.

I think the big question for the railways will be whether COVID has accelerated video conferencing, remote and home working such that the those growth assumptions no longer hold. I wouldn't rule it out. In the space of 1 year video conferencing has advanced by a decade or more, its it's gone from an inconvenient oddity to being the default, a lot of business travel is now unnecessary and the high speed, efficient option for a meeting is a Teams or Zoom call.
Video conferencing alone will not halt demand for travel. Note I said "travel" not "rail travel" because I presume you're also keen to reduce air and road travel too, which will inevitably lead to more demand for rail. There are so many other reasons that people travel.

The key point is that with homeworking and videoconferencing, last year car use went up. So it appears to me that these things do not reduce overall travel demand.
 

CW2

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It needs the flashing yellows moving off the half station route and putting on P1, that is where the mistake was made.
If by that you mean the Down Fast to Platform 1 should be Flashing YY then that is exactly what was designed and implemented. Has it changed in recent years? Great care was taken with the signal sight lines and sequencing, particularly as we had to accommodate a second set of flashing YY for Newbold / High Oaks Junctions. When the timetable first started running the xx03 Birmingham calling at Rugby was still causing some delay to the xx07 Liverpool, and this was traced to the timers on the flashing aspects hving been set to a "this is what we usually do" level, so the signal engineers had to re-programme the timers to the absolute limit permissible, so the route cleared into P1 as soon as possible. Once that was done and the timetable bedded in, there were no more delays.
 
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