Train dispatch

[Zoe]

I'm not going to say which station this was at but:

There was an HST in a platform and there were 2 dispatchers, both had bats. 30 seconds before the train was due to depart, the first dispatcher whistled and showed the bat to the second dispatcher, the second dispatcher then whistled and showed his bat back to the first dispatcher. The first dispatcher then turned round and whistled and showed his bat to the train manager. The CDL was then activated and the sequence repeated for the RA. This isn't the correct way to do things is it?

 

[ObservationCar]

Well in Scotland it goes something like this.

Here is the train to Glasgow.
Here is the driver,
Mr MacIver,
Who drove the train to Glasgow.

Here is the guard from Donibristle
Who waved his flag and blew his whistle
To tell the driver Mr Mciver
To drive the train to Glasgow

 

[d1015fan]

I'm not going to say which station this was at but:

There was an HST in a platform and there were 2 dispatchers, both had bats. 30 seconds before the train was due to depart, the first dispatcher whistled and showed the bat to the second dispatcher, the second dispatcher then whistled and showed his bat back to the first dispatcher. The first dispatcher then turned round and whistled and showed his bat to the train manager. The CDL was then activated and the sequence repeated for the RA. This isn't the correct way to do things is it?

sounds right to me. all staffed stations operate a 30 seconds prior to departure and the system sounds right. some larger stations operate a 60 second beofre departure. as long as the instructions are clear and everyone is safely on board that is the main thing

 

[Zoe]

sounds right to me. all staffed stations operate a 30 seconds prior to departure and the system sounds right. some larger stations operate a 60 second beofre departure. as long as the instructions are clear and everyone is safely on board that is the main thing

It's not the fact that the doors were locked 30 seconds before departure. It's the use of bats between the 2 dispathcers that doesn't seem right to me.

 

[MCR247]

You mean like this Observation Car

 

[Flamingo]

Depends also on if the TM could see both dispatchers, on some platforms the dispatchers have to relay signals to the TM as he can't see the whole train.

 

[mumrar]

It's not the fact that the doors were locked 30 seconds before departure. It's the use of bats between the 2 dispathcers that doesn't seem right to me.

This will sound rude, but from what standpoint does it not seem right to you? Do you have any professional or wide-ranging experience of the despatch of long slam door trains? Because if not, then the HMRI, HSE and TOC's involved most likely don't much care what your opinion is of the procedure. It is set out in rules, executed precisely and successfully many times every day for years on end without incident.

I know this probably reads as rude, but why are you questioning it for?

 

[thelem]

I know this probably reads as rude, but why are you questioning it for?

Yes, it does. This is a forum where people can ask questions and learn. It's not like he reported them for doing the wrong thing or anything, he was just asking if it was what they were meant to do!

 

[Zoe]

Yes, it does. It's not like he reported them for doing the wrong thing or anything, he was just asking if it was what they were meant to do!

Indeed, that's why I specifically did not say which station. Since when is Zoe a male name though?

 

[CarterUSM]

Zoe, do you mean the use of batons as opposed to flags or lamps?

 

[Zoe]

Zoe, do you mean the use of batons as opposed to flags or lamps?

No, it was my understanding that the bat should only be used to give the platform work complete signal to the TM so my question is to why the bat needed to be shown to the second dispatcher and the second dispatcher needed to show a bat back to the first. It was my understanding that only one bat should be on the platform at a time.

 

[westcoaster]

It's all above board , here is how I read it from my view point,

1 , are we ready to close doors
2 were ready

1 to guard close doors, as simple as that.

Maybe person 1 and the guard can not see the full length of the train and starting signal so a second person is helping for sighting purposes.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's all above board , here is how I read it from my view point,

1 , are we ready to close doors
2 were ready

1 to guard close doors, as simple as that.

Maybe person 1 and the guard can not see the full length of the train and starting signal so a second person is helping for sighting purposes.

That is more or less it!

 

[AlexS]

The bat is only a visual aid - the rulebook requires does not require a dispatch bat to be used. An arm raised above the head is perfectly acceptable.

Therefore whether one, two, or no dispatch bats are present is neither here nor there - what counts is that all parties concerned are aware who is a) the train guard/driver and b) who is the person in charge of the platform.

As the guard accepted the platform duties complete signal from the first dispatcher rather than the second, I would suggest that there was no problem whatsoever in the circumstances described and all parties were aware of what was occurring.

Certainly I can't see any issue here, nor would there be one in my experience arising.

 

[rail-britain]

In some stations there can even be three platform staff, each with a bat; I noticed this at Reading

It also seemed to vary how the sequence went, but basically the Platform Supervisor would stand nearest to the centre of the platform, blow the whistle, and be facing the front of the train (westbound)
The furthest Dispatcher would then raise the baton facing the Supervisor
The Supervisor would then turn, the other Dispatcher would then raise their baton, also facing the Supervisor
The Supervisor would then raise their baton, the Dispatcher nearest to the TM would then turn and raise the baton directed to them
The door locks would activate, and the process repeats, to confirm that the doors are clear and locked

 

[mumrar]

Yes, it does. This is a forum where people can ask questions and learn.

I agree with this part of the forum, but if your posts contain 'This isn't the correct way to do things' and 'It's the use of bats between the 2 dispathcers that
doesn't seem right' implies more of an accusation than enquiry out of information. That may be how I read it, but the type of post you refer to for information I'd expect to be like 'what is the correct despatch procedure for the use of batons with a long CDL train such as HSTs?'. The questions/statements from Zoe seem a little more accusatory.

 

[Zoe]

I agree with this part of the forum, but if your posts contain 'This isn't the correct way to do things' and 'It's the use of bats between the 2 dispathcers that
doesn't seem right' implies more of an accusation than enquiry out of information. That may be how I read it, but the type of post you refer to for information I'd expect to be like 'what is the correct despatch procedure for the use of batons with a long CDL train such as HSTs?'. The questions/statements from Zoe seem a little more accusatory.

That was certianly not my intention, sorry if it appeared that way. I was just going from what I was told once by a member of staff that there was a policy of only one bat allowed on the platform at a time.

 

[attics26]

certainly true at my station - every member of staff may have a baton on them but only one is ever used for dispatch to minimise the chance of the tm/guard etc accepting the tip from the wrong person

 

[southerner2174]

Worst dispatch i've ever had was at a big station i wont name but there were 5 dispatch staff (don't ask, i don't know why either), but two of them raised their bats, the other 3 didnt, then the other 3 raised theirs and the other 2 had taken theirs down, since none of them were raising in one go needless to say i refused to take any tip until they could come to a clear understanding between themselves. :roll:
I know at certain stations they nominate a lead dispatcher and the others are there to check doors are closed and BIL lights are off and the tip is taken from the lead dispatcher.

 

[westcoaster]

Worst dispatch i've ever had was at a big station i wont name but there were 5 dispatch staff (don't ask, i don't know why either), but two of them raised their bats, the other 3 didnt, then the other 3 raised theirs and the other 2 had taken theirs down, since none of them were raising in one go needless to say i refused to take any tip until they could come to a clear understanding between themselves. :roll:
I know at certain stations they nominate a lead dispatcher and the others are there to check doors are closed and BIL lights are off and the tip is taken from the lead dispatcher.

Mmmm sound a bit like east croydon.

 

[9K43]

The Rule Book states that in the event of no platform staff to see you away, the guard can start the train on his own.
Recently I worked the Orient Express from Sheffield Midland number 1 platform to Leeds via the ECML.
Number on platform is curved so you only have a view of a couple of coaches either way.
I asked one of the platform staff to assit me me the train doors, and cover the coaches which I could not see.
When we were ready to go, she signaled to me that the station duties were complete, on the assurance, I gave the driver the tip, and away we went.
Its not about how many bat wavers you have, its about dispatching the train in a safe manner.
The loco was a Royal Class 47, now in the national collection.

 

[O L Leigh]

It sounds very normal to me, especially where the platform is curved and it is not possible to see the entire length of the train from one position.

The TM will generally only be able to see the closest despatcher while the other will be out of view around the curve of the platform, so the use of two bats will not cause any confusion. In this example, the second bat is being used to communicate between the despatchers that all the doors are securely closed before signalling to the TM to operate the CDL, and that the CDL has operated on all coaches and all the orange lights are out before signalling again to the TM that the train is ready to start. There are no rules that prevent the use of more than one bat on any platform.

In most large stations (certainly in the big London terminals) platform staff will be in contact by radio and can communicate that way, but at times it still takes more than one despatcher to see the entire train.

O L Leigh

 

[Kneedown]

Just to add to O L Leighs post, regarding the querying by the OP of the second dispatcher raising his bat towards the first before turning and waving it to the TM, the raising of a dispatch bat to give the ready to start signal is safety critical communication, albeit of a non-verbal form, and it is a requirement for all safety critical messages to be repeated by the person receiving, back to the person giving the original message. This is to ensure that the message has been received and is clearly understood.

From the OP's description of events it sounds to me as if the dispatch was carried out professionally and to the letter.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Platform 4 at Reading is always an entertainment.

 

[TDK]

It's not the fact that the doors were locked 30 seconds before departure. It's the use of bats between the 2 dispathcers that doesn't seem right to me.

Zoe, a little knowledge is a bad thing. Here is a scenario, despatcher one cannot see the starting signal or the OFF indicator so can not display a bat so you will need 2, 3 or 4, it depends on the view the despatcher has of the train including the guard, the doors and the signal, this is escential on a curved platform. Things may not seem right to you or other folks who do not carry out safety critical duties however you have a right to ask a question but do not have the right to question the answer when you do not know enough about the subject

 

[Flamingo]

The Rule Book states that in the event of no platform staff to see you away, the guard can start the train on his own.

Depending on what the sectional appendix says for that station, of course

 

[9K43]

Depending on what the sectional appendix says for that station, of course

As far as I am concerned, the rule book is the one that I work to.
It is clear and precise, and sets out the format for dispatching train where no station staff are available to bat me away.
If there are no batters, the job is mine to do, end of.
As I have said before that I have the route knowledge of the location, I work to safety critical rules which allow me to start my own train.
After working on trains for almost 3 decades I know the job I do to the nth degree.
Whatever I do on the railway is done safely or it does not get done at all, because if it is not safe I will not perform an unsafe act.

 

[Zoe]

Things may not seem right to you or other folks who do not carry out safety critical duties however you have a right to ask a question but do not have the right to question the answer when you do not know enough about the subject

The first answer I got seemed to suggest I was questioning the fact that the dispatch procedure was started 30 seconds before the train was due to leave and this was not the case so that's why I explained the issues was with having the 2 bats on the platform at the same time. I was only saying to this as I was informed by a dispatcher once that they had been told that at no time should 2 bats be allowed on the platform at the same time but as explained above this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm am certainly not questioning the accuracy of the answers I have been given here.

 

[wensley]

The first answer I got seemed to suggest I was questioning the fact that the dispatch procedure was started 30 seconds before the train was due to leave and this was not the case so that's why I explained the issues was with having the 2 bats on the platform at the same time. I was only saying to this as I was informed by a dispatcher once that they had been told that at no time should 2 bats be allowed on the platform at the same time but as explained above this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm am certainly not questioning the accuracy of the answers I have been given here.

As far as I know the number of bats may exceed 2 if needed to cover the train on a platform with restricted visibility. As has been said most stations begin the dispatch around 30seconds before booked time to ensure an on time departure. The dispatch process should only commence one the signal is "OFF" unless specific arrangments have been made to the contrary to ensure the conductor does not give the driver permission to start against a signal set to danger.

 

[O L Leigh]

The dispatch process should only commence one the signal is "OFF" unless specific arrangments have been made to the contrary to ensure the conductor does not give the driver permission to start against a signal set to danger.

I am not aware of any such arrangements. The only way to prevent the driver starting against a red is to not commence despatching until the signal has cleared. In fact, this instruction is stated as something you "must" do and is highlighted in a red box in the relevant section of the Rules (SS1 Section 6).

O L Leigh