Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Geeves]

I doubt it, a 331 is around 7 to 10 million pounds a unit depending on the number of cars.

 

[AM9]

I doubt it, a 331 is around 7 to 10 million pounds a unit depending on the number of cars.

Also, how much are the failures of new stock costing the railway? There's 331s, 195s, 196s, 197s, 8xxs, each with their own little problems. The 769s total 46 units, that's 184 cars to pay for.

 

[The Ham]

I doubt it, a 331 is around 7 to 10 million pounds a unit depending on the number of cars.

Although it might not be cheaper over the short term, it maybe so over the longer term. Although that depends on how long the 769's last in service.

For instance of they last 5 years and cost £1 million, but the £7 million trains last 35 years then they are of equal benefit (assuming everything else is equal, however chances are there would be some added benefits from the new trains, such as not having to retrain staff after 5 years, or that they might be nicer to travel on and so more people would want to use them).

 

[Grumpy Git]

I wonder how much the 769 program has cost per unit compared with buying new or even putting some more wires up.
K

I posted a thread on exactly this question recently: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cost-of-bi-modes-vs-wiring-up.217244/

 

[itsonlyme]

Were there not services that ran directly from Birkdale to Meols Cop/Hesketh Park? Through workings from the Liverpool Overhead Railway may have done this. If these served Southport they must have reversed out of the same platform they arrived in. Until the 1990s it was possible to reach Platform 2 from Meols Cop, but I don’t think it was frequently done.

I’m sure you’ll be able to recall that the present retaining wall of the car park onto London Street was the originally the retaining wall of the station, that still had “Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway” written on it until the 1960s. Were the (very worn looking) stairs onto the car park at the end of London Street another entrance to the station?

There were a very few services that ran from Birkdale to St Lukes without reversing at Southport These were peak hour only and I cannot recall any running in my lifetime. My grandfather told me he used them commuting to Liverpool pre war travelling from St. Lukes to Liverpool.

In addition there were troop services from Altcar Rifle Range Halt (situated on the Southport side of Hightown) which depending on destination continued from Birkdale via St Lukes, and Blowick or Meols Cop, towards Wigan or via St Lukes and Hesketh Park towards Preston.

I can recall seeing a photo of a Liverpool Overhead Railway train stabled outside Meols Cop works. I do not think any travelled in passenger service beyond Southport. There may be more information in C E Box's book on the LOR and its later revision. (Your local library should be able to obtain a copy)

The only stone steps I can recall at the end of London Street were the ones to access the footbridge across to Virginia Street. There was no entrance to main station here apart but there was access to the excursion platforms 12 & 13 which were separate from the main station

Apologies to the Mods for being way off topic.

 

[plugwash]

Its definitely been overlooked. They’ve just left the 1988 Thameslink interior exactly as it is. 319 interiors will disappear from electric only 319s when they are withdrawn but remain on 769s after West Midlands 323s transfer.

My memory of the original proposal of the 769's is that there were concerns about "crush-laden weight" and that they actually had to add seats to reduce it (seated passengers weigh less per square meter than crush-loaded standing ones). IIRC the first class seats were in the end car, so I suspect replacing them with open space is not an option.

 

[AM9]

My memory of the original proposal of the 769's is that there were concerns about "crush-laden weight" and that they actually had to add seats to reduce it (seated passengers weigh less per square meter than crush-loaded standing ones). IIRC the first class seats were in the end car, so I suspect replacing them with open space is not an option.

I doubt that the 769s will ever see crush-loadings on the routes that they are destined for.

 

[plugwash]

Things may well be quiet at the ends of the routes, but I don't expect them to stay that way as the train passes through the Manchester conurbation in rush hour.

A few cancellations can easily turn a "fairly busy" train into a "crush loaded" one.

 

[Gricer99]

Most of the 769 ALD-SOP Diagrams being run by 2 car 150s and 156s today. The 769s have also disappeared from the Stalybridge route.

 

[AM9]

Things may well be quiet at the ends of the routes, but I don't expect them to stay that way as the train passes through the Manchester conurbation in rush hour.

A few cancellations can easily turn a "fairly busy" train into a "crush loaded" one.

If that is the only location that crush-loading is likely then that isn't an issue as they would be running under OLE. Given that they regularly carried real crushed loads on Thameslink including starting on a 1:27 gradient, I doubt that the occasional presence of standees for a few stops through Manchester present any real problem. It may mean that the drivers need to be allowed to make better use of the train's performance though. If it's concern about the axle loading of the DTCOs, then at 9.5 tonnes, their tare is still 3 tonnes below that of the MSO, - that's about 40 extra standees per car. Can't see that being a problem.

 

[edwin_m]

If that is the only location that crush-loading is likely then that isn't an issue as they would be running under OLE. Given that they regularly carried real crushed loads on Thameslink including starting on a 1:27 gradient, I doubt that the occasional presence of standees for a few stops through Manchester present any real problem. It may mean that the drivers need to be allowed to make better use of the train's performance though. If it's concern about the axle loading of the DTCOs, then at 9.5 tonnes, their tare is still 3 tonnes below that of the MSO, - that's about 40 extra standees per car. Can't see that being a problem.

There's quite possibly a safety issue with crush-loading if it exceeds the stresses that the structure was designed to take. The extra weight of the diesels will certainly increase the stresses on the end car, which may or may not also have been strengthened.

 

[D9006]

Most of the 769 ALD-SOP Diagrams being run by 2 car 150s and 156s today. The 769s have also disappeared from the Stalybridge route.

Can only see 458 out today on realtimes

 

[Jamesrob637]

Most of the 769 ALD-SOP Diagrams being run by 2 car 150s and 156s today. The 769s have also disappeared from the Stalybridge route.

Great, half-term, warm weather, the end of COVID here and 2-car trains

What could possibly go wrong?! 1 out of half a dozen is shocking!

 

[Fokx]

Great, half-term, warm weather, the end of COVID here and 2-car trains

What could possibly go wrong?! 1 out of half a dozen is shocking!

It’s better than 769’s which keep breaking down mid-route and blocking the line or detraining passengers

 

[AM9]

If that is the only location that crush-loading is likely then that isn't an issue as they would be running under OLE. Given that they regularly carried real crushed loads on Thameslink including starting on a 1:27 gradient, I doubt that the occasional presence of standees for a few stops through Manchester present any real problem. It may mean that the drivers need to be allowed to make better use of the train's performance though. If it's concern about the axle loading of the DTCOs, then at 9.5 tonnes, their tare is still 3 tonnes below that of the MSO, - that's about 40 extra standees per car. Can't see that being a problem.

I would imagine that the MKIII shells used on all of the '80s EMUs would be the same and any additional load mounted on the underframes that are borne by the bogie mounting points. Also, there are 'crush loads' and 'crush loads' and a 319 bouncing over the Mill Hill bumps with a real crush load at speeds in the '90s 5 days a week is way above anything that the 769s will endure in the north-west.

 

[Gricer99]

You’d think they would have done a bit more proof testing to get rid of these problems before introdi them into service. They had plenty of time!

 

[edwin_m]

I would imagine that the MKIII shells used on all of the '80s EMUs would be the same and any additional load mounted on the underframes that are borne by the bogie mounting points. Also, there are 'crush loads' and 'crush loads' and a 319 bouncing over the Mill Hill bumps with a real crush load at speeds in the '90s 5 days a week is way above anything that the 769s will endure in the north-west.

I recall reading that when the surviving car from a 210 was inserted into a 455 to replace the one crushed by a cement mixer, there was some concern that it was made of a thinner section of steel. So there was at least one variation during the construction programme for these fleets.

 

[Techniquest]

Managed 769456 and 769458 today, not done the AC to diesel bit at Bolton yet (going to try to do that tomorrow) but certainly on AC they don't mess about! 2 down, 6 to go with Northern...

 

[PHILIPE]

You’d think they would have done a bit more proof testing to get rid of these problems before introdi them into service. They had plenty of time!

They do. They call it "Fault Free Running"

 

[507021]

Managed 769456 and 769458 today, not done the AC to diesel bit at Bolton yet (going to try to do that tomorrow) but certainly on AC they don't mess about! 2 down, 6 to go with Northern...

Blimey, I've finally beaten Tech to clearing a fleet!

 

[Techniquest]

Blimey, I've finally beaten Tech to clearing a fleet!

Congratulations in that case! Not the best day for me to go north and find only 2 769s, 756 was by chance, but it is what it is.

Besides, it's when you beat Kite159 to doing something that's special, beating the absolute king of trains to doing pretty much anything takes a lot of doing!

 

[DerekC]

There's quite possibly a safety issue with crush-loading if it exceeds the stresses that the structure was designed to take. The extra weight of the diesels will certainly increase the stresses on the end car, which may or may not also have been strengthened.

That's right. There are design standards for crush load which have to be complied with. You can't just say "crush loading isn't going to happen on the routes they will be operating".

 

[Techniquest]

That's right. There are design standards for crush load which have to be complied with. You can't just say "crush loading isn't going to happen on the routes they will be operating".

Indeed. Given how busy a lot of trains from seaside resorts were today, even after 8pm, it's fair to say that there is a good chance the 769s will experience crush-loading. I can only imagine how busy they would have been into/out of Southport today for example!

 

[Kite159]

Indeed. Given how busy a lot of trains from seaside resorts were today, even after 8pm, it's fair to say that there is a good chance the 769s will experience crush-loading. I can only imagine how busy they would have been into/out of Southport today for example!

Especially as flows to seaside spread out on the way to the seaside but in my experience everybody wants to get home around the same time so the return legs can get busy.

 

[507021]

Congratulations in that case! Not the best day for me to go north and find only 2 769s, 756 was by chance, but it is what it is.

Besides, it's when you beat Kite159 to doing something that's special, beating the absolute king of trains to doing pretty much anything takes a lot of doing!

Cheers Tech, it took me a few days over a week or so but it was nice to get them all in the bag!

 

[Techniquest]

Cheers Tech, it took me a few days over a week or so but it was nice to get them all in the bag!

Helps being pretty local I suppose! I'll probably get most of them on local leaps in the Manchester area at some point, hoping to get a couple more tomorrow

 

[507020]

My memory of the original proposal of the 769's is that there were concerns about "crush-laden weight" and that they actually had to add seats to reduce it (seated passengers weigh less per square meter than crush-loaded standing ones). IIRC the first class seats were in the end car, so I suspect replacing them with open space is not an option.

It wouldn’t be replacing them with open space though. I’m sure space taken up by bikes without room to stand would weigh less than crush loading with people. The lightest carriage is the TSOL, but has space taken up by the toilet and wheelchair space, so you couldn’t crushload this either. How much does the toilet water tank weigh?

Several trains were cancelled today between Wigan and Southport, leading the next service to be crush loaded, but when I looked the passengers weren’t by any means spread out between the carriages. On a pair of 150/1s which you can’t walk through, the rear 2 carriages were crush loaded and the front 2 comparatively empty.

 

[175001]

Managed 769456 and 769458 today, not done the AC to diesel bit at Bolton yet (going to try to do that tomorrow) but certainly on AC they don't mess about! 2 down, 6 to go with Northern...

Looks like only 424 out today for you. Oh dear

 

[Gricer99]

Helps being pretty local I suppose! I'll probably get most of them on local leaps in the Manchester area at some point, hoping to get a couple more tomorrow

Indeed, only 424 out today. The southport 2 car sprinters replacing the rest will be rammed!

 

[edwin_m]

It wouldn’t be replacing them with open space though. I’m sure space taken up by bikes without room to stand would weigh less than crush loading with people. The lightest carriage is the TSOL, but has space taken up by the toilet and wheelchair space, so you couldn’t crushload this either. How much does the toilet water tank weigh?

If there no bikes then "room to stand" could be crush loaded, unless the bike rack physically prevents people occupying the space. And I'm sure we've all seen people standing in the toilets and wheelchair spaces when a train is very busy. For assessing structural safety, it has to be assumed that every available space is crammed with people.