Great British Railways: Effects for Scotland and Wales (and devolution)

[TravelDream]

I thought this would be an interesting angle for discussion.

At the moment, rail services in Scotland and Wales are devolved. The Welsh Government controls TFW (which some things controlled by the UK government in the parts of England it operates in) and the Scottish Government controls Scotrail. Services from Scotland-England and most from Wales-England continue to be controlled by the UK Government though Avanti, GWR, Crosscountry etc. The infrastructure is still owned and run by Network Rail apart from a few of the South Wales Valleys lines owned by the Welsh Government.

So how is this going to work?
Is there going to be a unified brand? Scotrail has existed for a long time even under old BR.
Is the UK government going to control Scotrail and TFW's fares and timetables? This is what some sources in the media suggest, but some say they won't/
What happens to things like the South Wales Metro and the ideas of integrating bus and rail?

I suppose similar questions could be asked for Merseyrail and Tyne and Wear, but the situation with devolution in Wales and Scotland is a little different.

 

[snookertam]

My impression is that ScotRail will carry on as before in its National operator mould, and will be publicly run. They are answerable to Transport Scotland and will continue to be, including setting timetables. The ‘Great British Railway’ concept will apply to the cross border services to England (and the very rare occurance where any of these operators run services entirely within Scotland). If there is a major impact in Scotland I’d guess it’ll be ticketing as that would mirror the wider British set up.

Operationally it’s a bit like anywhere else in Europe where there’s a National operator and trains from a neighbouring country will cross the border. I guess Wales is similar but not as self contained as the Scottish network. ScotRail only work as far as Carlisle on a regular basis.

 

[TravelDream]

Some of the media narrative this morning was that Scotrail and TFW would be forced to use this GB-wide branding with Great British Railway as the public-facing brand and timetable/ fare setter. I wasn't 100% sure as these things are devolved.

Then you get things like this from a political reporter.

Boris Johnson’s spokesman says "Great British Railways” will only operate in… England.

https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1395341389693693956

 

[RobShipway]

Maybe me, but I would suspect that nothing would change on how the trains are run in both Scotland and Wales. It is just the duties that the likes of Network rail would have done, will now be done by GBR.

The only change I see that Scotland and Wales will see, will be a different name on the likes of the HST New Measurement Train or perhaps it may get painted a different colour to the current Yellow peril.

 

[Gareth]

The answer is that it won't much. The aspects that are devolved will remain devolved. The other stuff, such as Network Rail's responsibilities, will be rolled into GBR. Same with Merseyrail and London Overground. It only needs to be as complicated as we want it to be.

The Tyne & Wear Metro isn't part of the rail system, so shouldn't really be affected.

 

[Clansman]

Control of ScotRail (and Caledonian Sleeper) is devolved to the Scottish Government, so the UK government wouldn't touch it with a barge pole as it'd be political suicide in the current climate.

ScotRail is arguably one of the strongest rail brands in the UK, so there's no incentive to give it the GBR treatment from a marketing point of view.

The only thing that'll change is Network Rail becoming GBR, and calls from the Scottish Government for devolution of infrastructure to integrate with ScotRail as opposed to the current 'alliance'.

I can see the UK government enjoying the prospect of redesigning the Network Rail station signage and cladding Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central with union jacks to cement the union.

 

[TravelDream]

Control of ScotRail (and Caledonian Sleeper) is devolved to the Scottish Government, so the UK government wouldn't touch it with a barge pole as it'd be political suicide in the current climate.
ScotRail is arguably one of the strongest rail brands in the UK, so there's no incentive to give it the GBR treatment from a marketing point of view.
I can see the UK government enjoying the prospect of redesigning the Network Rail station signage and cladding Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central with union jacks to cement the union.

I am sure you'll understand some of the confusion though.

Take this article from Wales Online. Rail in Wales is also devolved like in Scotland, though the Welsh Government actually owns a lot of the Cardiff commuter railway track.

Mainline train routes in Wales all to become part of the Great British Railway​

The plans would see mainline train routes in Wales, but not some south Wales valleys Transport for Wales routes, come under the control of the new body

Wales' mainline train routes to become part of Great British Railway

The plans would see mainline train routes in Wales, but not some south Wales valleys Transport for Wales routes, come under the control of the new body

www.walesonline.co.uk

This, it seems, is wrong. It suggests Transport for Wales trains will become GBR trains, and only the South Wales Valleys networks will remain as TFW.When, in fact, the current TFW will remain and only routes to England by GWR and others will become GBR. I can't blame Wales Online, the messaging put out by the UK government on the 19th and monring of the 20th was that GBR would be taking over rail operations in England, Wales and Scotland. The first article put out by the BBC talked a lot about Great Britian and was only later corrected to say GBR would sell tickets for trains in England (when you'll actually be able to buy for the whole of GB on their app, but...).


Not to get too much into politics, but the reason the UK gov would have to want rid of Scotrail is surely to plaster Union Jacks on everything despite how strong a brand it is (from the BR days)?

 

[Cardiff123]

I am sure you'll understand some of the confusion though.

Take this article from Wales Online. Rail in Wales is also devolved like in Scotland, though the Welsh Government actually owns a lot of the Cardiff commuter railway track.

Wales' mainline train routes to become part of Great British Railway

The plans would see mainline train routes in Wales, but not some south Wales valleys Transport for Wales routes, come under the control of the new body

www.walesonline.co.uk

This, it seems, is wrong. It suggests Transport for Wales trains will become GBR trains, and only the South Wales Valleys networks will remain as TFW.When, in fact, the current TFW will remain and only routes to England by GWR and others will become GBR. I can't blame Wales Online, the messaging put out by the UK government on the 19th and monring of the 20th was that GBR would be taking over rail operations in England, Wales and Scotland. The first article put out by the BBC talked a lot about Great Britian and was only later corrected to say GBR would sell tickets for trains in England (when you'll actually be able to buy for the whole of GB on their app, but...).

Yes, that Wales Online article is completely wrong on almost everything. All current TfW Rail services (e.g, the Wales & Borders franchise routes) are staying with TfW and are staying devolved to TfW / Welsh Govt. But it's not exactly uncommon for Wales Online to put out shoddy, factually incorrect journalism when it comes to devolution either.

Not to get too much into politics, but the reason the UK gov would have to want rid of Scotrail is surely to plaster Union Jacks on everything despite how strong a brand it is (from the BR days)?

It's impossible to talk about "Great British Railways" without getting into politics, as the current English/British nationalist Tory UK Govt have made the launch of GBR entirely and deliberately political.
Of course UK Govt would love to have Union Jacks plastered over every train in the UK. It's no secret that Boris Johnson despises devolution, even English devolution.

 

[Gareth]

I don't see any evidence that Scotrail or TfW are going anywhere. Of course they're going to be a part of GBR in so far as they're currently part of the National Rail network, with Network Rail owning much of the infrastructure. That shouldn't be surprising.

And as much as it'd upset all the right people, I'd be opposed to it; as I would if they tried to change Merseyrail.

 

[Cardiff123]

There were short sections on devolution at the meeting of the UK Transport committee that was taking evidence on the Williams-Shapps review white paper this morning. Link here to watch it.

Nothing new was revealed, and nothing was mentioned from the segments on devolution that I've seen, about whether ScotRail or TfW Rail will be forced to adopt GBR branding etc. Emphasis was put on the fact that the current devolution settlement with regards to rail operations won't change. The only bit that stood out for me was Grant Shapps saying that, and I paraphrase, he "knows that the Scottish government wants to use the Operator of Last Resort to run ScotRail, nothing in this white paper changes that situation."

So presumably this means that if the Scottish and Welsh Governments want to run the ScotRail and TfW Rail services directly themselves long term, without awarding a contract to a private operator to do it for them, they will be able to do that. This 10 minute segment with Keith Williams & Grant Shapps starts at 10:56am.

There was also an earlier segment on devolution, mainly focussing on TfL operations with Peter Hendy and Andy Bagnall, from 10:07am.

 

[TravelDream]

So presumably this means that if the Scottish and Welsh Governments want to run the ScotRail and TfW Rail services directly themselves long term, without awarding a contract to a private operator to do it for them, they will be able to do that. This 10 minute segment with Keith Williams & Grant Shapps starts at 10:56am.

Thanks for watching and giving the summary.

What I have quoted above is already the case so what he says there give no additional information either. TFW is already 'nationalised' and the Welsh Government is not going to re-tender it.

 

[Cardiff123]

Thanks for watching and giving the summary.

What I have quoted above is already the case so what he says there give no additional information either. TFW is already 'nationalised' and the Welsh Government is not going to re-tender it.

Yes but Welsh Govt have never been certain if, pending the outcome of the Williams review, they would be forced by UK Govt to re-tender and re-privatise the W&B / TfW Rail contract once the Covid emergency has passed. Welsh Govt wanted to take operation of the W & B franchise in-house in October 2018, but UK Govt wouldn't allow them to at the time.
However, Shapps comments today appear to suggest that Welsh & Scottish governments can keep their devolved rail operations in-house if they choose to. We'll see what happens when the final legislation passes through the UK Parliament of course.

 

[TravelDream]

We'll see what happens when the final legislation passes through the UK Parliament of course.

TBH, I find it quite confusing to understand what is devolved and what isn't.
My understanding was that the Wales and Western franchise was devolved for the Welsh Gov to do with what they want with the UK DFT giving spec for the parts operating in England. The Welsh Gov also own the 'core' Valley Lines track. The Scottish situation is similar but without the owned track. The announcements and news reports and 'analysis' have been all over the place with this.

On the legislation, I think it's far from imminent so it might be a while before we find out anything concrete.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

TBH, I find it quite confusing to understand what is devolved and what isn't.
My understanding was that the Wales and Western franchise was devolved for the Welsh Gov to do with what they want with the UK DFT giving spec for the parts operating in England. The Welsh Gov also own the 'core' Valley Lines track. The Scottish situation is similar but without the owned track. The announcements and news reports and 'analysis' have been all over the place with this.

On the legislation, I think it's far from imminent so it might be a while before we find out anything concrete.

The Scottish and Welsh settlements are actually quite different.

The main diference is that Wales does not receive a Barnett consequential for rail spending in England. This essentially means that a percentage of Network Rails' spending is ring-fenced for Scotland with the Scottish Government having input on how it is spent wheras Wales has to try and persuade NR to pursue schemes in Wales

 

[Cardiff123]

The Scottish and Welsh settlements are actually quite different.

The main diference is that Wales does not receive a Barnett consequential for rail spending in England. This essentially means that a percentage of Network Rails' spending is ring-fenced for Scotland with the Scottish Government having input on how it is spent wheras Wales has to try and persuade NR to pursue schemes in Wales

And then (usually) NR only agree if Welsh Govt are funding it themselves, by taking funds away from other parts of their devolved budget.

 

[TravelDream]

The Scottish and Welsh settlements are actually quite different.

The main diference is that Wales does not receive a Barnett consequential for rail spending in England. This essentially means that a percentage of Network Rails' spending is ring-fenced for Scotland with the Scottish Government having input on how it is spent wheras Wales has to try and persuade NR to pursue schemes in Wales

I guess that explains the pitiful spending on rail projects in Wales.

Though, I thought things like HS2 were 'national' projects so there was no Barnett consequential anywhere. Do I understand that wrongly?

 

[Cardiff123]

I guess that explains the pitiful spending on rail projects in Wales.

Though, I thought things like HS2 were 'national' projects so there was no Barnett consequential anywhere. Do I understand that wrongly?

Yes. Wales gets nothing because HS2 is classed as an 'England and Wales' project, even though not a single section of HS2 track is being laid in Wales.

Scotland gets a massive Barnett consequential due to HS2.

The Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University released a report in March, about how Wales' rail infrastructure not being devolved has meant Wales has lost out on at least £500m in rail infrastructure spending & investment over the last decade
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view...ture-funding-squeeze-to-come,-says-new-report

Railway infrastructure investment in Wales would have been significantly higher if it had been devolved, and failure to do so will “bake in” further losses to the Welsh budget, according to a new report from Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre.

The report finds that under a fully devolved system, Wales could have received an extra £514m investment in its rail infrastructure between 2011-12 and 2019-20.

As well as perpetuating underinvestment in Wales’ rail infrastructure, the researchers warn the non-devolved system will also lead to a funding squeeze on the Welsh Government’s future budget. Not only does HS2’s designation as an England and Wales project exclude Wales from receiving the additional funding that will flow to Scotland and Northern Ireland over the lifespan of the project – but the Treasury’s recent inclusion of Network Rail spending in Barnett formula calculations will cause a second squeeze on Wales funding. Because Wales is not treated in the same manner as Scotland in those calculations, the report estimates that the Welsh Government is set to lose out on another £505m over the next five years.......

 

[Andrew1395]

GBR will no doubt have an HQ, with senior executive functions. So have it based in Edinburgh. No reason why UK wide operations have to be based in England.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This is getting ridiculous. The GBR brand doesn't need to cause such a fuss. At its end, "British Rail" wasn't plastered across all the rolling stock in England and banished north of the Border. Just bring back the PTE brands in England and NSE in the south then quietly slap the BR logo on all trains across the UK to create a unified brand. Then you can avoid the political meltdowns of having the word "British" on trains.

 

[XAM2175]

Then you can avoid the political meltdowns of having the word "British" on trains.

There is no political meltdown over the word "British" - it's "Great" that's provoked the majority of the ire because it's felt to indicate the political priorities of the current government, alongside certain concerns about how GBR's political and managerial structure will line up with the devolved administrations. And most of those concerns appear to have been (at least temporarily) assuaged now.

Hell, had they just gone straight back to British Rail it would almost certainly have been the least-controversial choice of the lot.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There is no political meltdown over the word "British" - it's "Great" that's provoked the majority of the ire because it's felt to indicate the political priorities of the current government, alongside certain concerns about how GBR's political and managerial structure will line up with the devolved administrations. And most of those concerns appear to have been (at least temporarily) assuaged now.

Hell, had they just gone straight back to British Rail it would almost certainly have been the least-controversial choice of the lot.

Sorry, I see your point. I was referring to the earlier discussion of the GBR brand possibly only being used in England. There's no need, the PTE areas would absorb much of England's railways.

 

[Gareth]

The island is called Great Britian. By extension, the term is also used to refer to England, Scotland & Wales collectively, to the exclusion of Northern Ireland and sometimes even the whole UK (i.e. car number plates, Olympic team etc).

It doesn't mean "very good Britian" or "Britain better than everyone else".

And I disagree: there'd still be a meltdown. Perhaps a few of the genuinely stupid who honestly misunderstand the "Great" bit would be okay about it but that's not most of them.

 

[JaJaWa]

Apologies for the very blurry pic but I noticed the Network Rail logo on TfW posters is being replaced with the (G)BR one.

 

[TravelDream]

The island is called Great Britian. By extension, the term is also used to refer to England, Scotland & Wales collectively, to the exclusion of Northern Ireland and sometimes even the whole UK (i.e. car number plates, Olympic team etc).

It doesn't mean "very good Britian" or "Britain better than everyone else".

And I disagree: there'd still be a meltdown. Perhaps a few of the genuinely stupid who honestly misunderstand the "Great" bit would be okay about it but that's not most of them.

Great Britain is used to differentiate our island of Britain to:
Either Ireland which to the ancient Greeks was known as little Britain.
Or Brittany in France which the Romans and others referred to as Less, Lesser or Little Britain. In French today it remains as Bretagne and Grande-Bretagne.
The great refers to the size rather than good or better.

What some people, including me, dislike is that the name is unwieldy and 'unnatural'. BR or British Rail would be a better name.

Anyway, the current understanding is that Scotrail and TFW will continue to be used. As will, probably, Merseyrail and TFL London Overground. There's not too much clarity on what's happening elsewhere in England.
This might all be totally wrong though and the UK government could pass primary legislation to change this.

Apologies for the very blurry pic but I noticed the Network Rail logo on TfW posters is being replaced with the (G)BR one.

I think Network Rail's public facing logo has been changed to the one on the right. The corporate logo remains the one on the left. This preexists GBR.

 

[Gareth]

Great Britain is used to differentiate our island of Britain to:
Either Ireland which to the ancient Greeks was known as little Britain.
Or Brittany in France which the Romans and others referred to as Less, Lesser or Little Britain. In French today it remains as Bretagne and Grande-Bretagne.
The great refers to the size rather than good or better.

What some people, including me, dislike is that the name is unwieldy and 'unnatural'. BR or British Rail would be a better name.

Yes, you're quite right about the origin of the name.

It's also fair enough if you think the name is clunky, although I still think it will be referred to as GBR in the most part, including in branding. I think the reason they didn't go for British Rail was because they wanted to retain some distinction, considering the railway isn't actually going to be nationalised.

I also agree with your prediction regarding the devolved TOC brands surviving.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Apologies for the very blurry pic but I noticed the Network Rail logo on TfW posters is being replaced with the (G)BR one.

View attachment 97431

So it begins...

 

[Cardiff123]

So it begins...

Nothing has 'begun'. As member 'TravelDream' has said, Network Rail has changed their public facing logo to the BR arrow symbol/logo, a decision taken before anyone knew anything about GBR. That's it.

I think Network Rail's public facing logo has been changed to the one on the right. The corporate logo remains the one on the left. This preexists GBR.

 

[JaJaWa]

Nothing has 'begun'. As member 'TravelDream' has said, Network Rail has changed their public facing logo to the BR arrow symbol/logo, a decision taken before anyone knew anything about GBR. That's it.

The change was made as part of the preparations for GBR, it's not some kind of random co-incidence.

 

[option]

I can see the UK government enjoying the prospect of redesigning the Network Rail station signage and cladding Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central with union jacks to cement the union.

There is barely any Network Rail branding on station signage, simply because there's nowhere to put it.
Vast majority of signage is for wayfinding, & you only put on that the relevant/necessary stuff.

Google Search

Once your in a place, you don't need to be constantly told that you're in that place. Look at supermarket signage as an example.

 

[busmanaams]

This is getting ridiculous. The GBR brand doesn't need to cause such a fuss. At its end, "British Rail" wasn't plastered across all the rolling stock in England and banished north of the Border. Just bring back the PTE brands in England and NSE in the south then quietly slap the BR logo on all trains across the UK to create a unified brand. Then you can avoid the political meltdowns of having the word "British" on trains.

NO CHANCE

Johnson and his troupe of clowns (or the "Cabinet") can keep their noses out of devolved matters. Such interference in our affairs only hastens the day when the Union will be dissolved.

And that can't come too soon