Could Class 800s be cleared into Marylebone / Waterloo, to enable diversions as required in future?

[Steve14]

Although previous major works along the GWML saw HSTs running in and out of Marylebone and Waterloo, is anyone able to answer whether Hitachi/GWR have tested the 800s along those corridors if more future major revamps or extensive overhauling work is done. Would be interesting to them at either terminus

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Marylebone is problematic as the platforms are not long enough for a 9 or 10 car IET. Waterloo would be possible in theory but would require extensive gauging clearance work to be carried out.

 

[JN114]

At the moment, no neither Marylebone nor Waterloo are cleared for IETs, and I’m not sure it’s the easiest of jobs to do so.

But I really can’t think of a disruptive enough engineering block in time to come that would justify it - it’s only ever been for long, several day blocks - none of which will be needed in the vaguely foreseeable.

Old Oak Station would be the next major engineering hurdle, but I can’t see that needing more than 2 tracks at a time...

 

[RobShipway]

To be honest I don't think that the class 800's would ever need to go to either Marylebone or Waterloo, as the HST's only went to Waterloo due to the works being done to put in the Overheard Electrification wire and bridge replacement works.

As JN114 has suggested the only works that could stop the class 800 is the works on Old Oak Common station for HS2, which may include doing work on the nearby bridge that carries the line from Kensington Olympia to Willesden Junction for connection with the West Coast Mainline. There is talk of making connections from the bridge for London Overground trains to go into Old Oak Common station for connections. If that is the case, then the class 800's may need to go to another station in London, which I think is more likely to be Waterloo and usage of the old International Platforms if there is the paths that they can be used.

 

[Ianno87]

Old Oak Station would be the next major engineering hurdle, but I can’t see that needing more than 2 tracks at a time...

I agree - Old Oak is likely to be do-able largely in 2-track possessions. (and when 4-tracks are needed, Ealing Broadway would be the obvious termination point short of Paddington).

 

[A0]

800s or variants thereof could be a suitable replacement for the 159s SWR has - maybe that would be the way gauging for Waterloo gets carried out ?

 

[RPM]

Marylebone is problematic as the platforms are not long enough for a 9 or 10 car IET. Waterloo would be possible in theory but would require extensive gauging clearance work to be carried out.

Are IET vehicles longer than 23 metres? All the platforms at MYB except P4 can take 9 23 metre card cars. Platform 3 can take 10, and platform 2 can take 10 in exceptional circumstances

 

[Mike395]

Are IET vehicles longer than 23 metres? All the platforms at MYB except P4 can take 9 23 metre card cars. Platform 3 can take 10, and platform 2 can take 10 in exceptional circumstances

Yes, they're c. 26m (Source)

 

[RPM]

Yes, they're c. 26m (Source)

Cheers. Yes, that would indeed rule out MYB for 9 car sets.

 

[JonathanH]

800s or variants thereof could be a suitable replacement for the 159s SWR has - maybe that would be the way gauging for Waterloo gets carried out ?

A bit too much wasted space specifying a pointy end for the trains that replace 159s if they aren't going to exceed 100mph.

Even clearance for the SWR replacement fleet might not include Reading to Virginia Water.

 

[swt_passenger]

The published list of gauge clearance for the GW “IEP capability” did include Reading to Waterloo via Wokingham and Staines, but not the main line route via Salisbury and Basingstoke. It also did not ever include Marylebone. (I suspect the last two were only ever assumed to be needed for the most serious closures caused by the Reading area rebuild, so would not be maintained long term.)

Another of the CP5 enhancements (as at 2016) that eventually just sort of disappeared…

 

[Horizon22]

I agree - Old Oak is likely to be do-able largely in 2-track possessions. (and when 4-tracks are needed, Ealing Broadway would be the obvious termination point short of Paddington).

Probably would be Reading whilst the locals stop at Ealing, but yes I imagine they'll slew lines and work on it bit by bit, similar to the London Bridge rebuild.

 

[Whistler40145]

Wouldn't it be easier and far more practical to divert IEPs into a London Termini that is already fitted with 25kV OHLE, whereas London Waterloo is DC

 

[RobShipway]

Wouldn't it be easier and far more practical to divert IEPs into a London Termini that is already fitted with 25kV OHLE, whereas London Waterloo is DC

What routes would they take though to get to either Euston, St Pancras or Kings Cross?

 

[Whistler40145]

What routes would they take though to get to either Euston, St Pancras or Kings Cross?

An upgraded route via South West Sidings into Euston or if St Pancras was available, upgrade the Dudding Hill line with 25kV OHLE

 

[RobShipway]

An upgraded route via South West Sidings into Euston or if St Pancras was available, upgrade the Dudding Hill line with 25kV OHLE

You need more of a reason for putting in OHLE along the Dudding Hill line than the re - routing of IEP trains from the Great Western mainline for a short period. But if they used the Dudding Hill line on diesel power, that is no different than the IEP using those same diesel engines on the Reading - Waterloo line.

With regards South West Sidings, I think that you will find that the IEP carriages at 26 metres, is possibly too long for the curves on the route? Even if you could get a path round by College Park, where the IEP's could cross the tracks to be on the correct line for travelling into Euston. But the point where you are coming off is where the work is taking place for the HS2 Old Oak Common station, so you really would be needing to come off the GWML before that point and there is no route that can take you into Euston before that point.

 

[David Goddard]

Hardly worth the extra knitting for occasional use on diversions. The IETs spend enough time running away from wires as they are, so a few more miles will not be a problem.
It would probably be a prudent thing to work to get clearance for access to one alternative terminal - Waterloo via Staines must be the most appropriate. The issue could then be sharp curves like on the approach to Staines, not to mention anything hanging low enough to foul the juice rails.

 

[Whistler40145]

Hardly worth the extra knitting for occasional use on diversions. The IETs spend enough time running away from wires as they are, so a few more miles will not be a problem.
It would probably be a prudent thing to work to get clearance for access to one alternative terminal - Waterloo via Staines must be the most appropriate. The issue could then be sharp curves like on the approach to Staines, not to mention anything hanging low enough to foul the juice rails.

What do you do if IEPs foul the 3rd Rail?

 

[swt_passenger]

What do you do if IEPs foul the 3rd Rail?

They mustn’t foul the third rail, because they’ve routinely run between Basingstoke and Eastleigh for work during the last few years.

AIUI there was no special gauge clearance done to allow it, which to my mind maintains the view they can basically go anywhere a Mk3 can go, within reason.

 

[David Goddard]

They mustn’t foul the third rail, because they’ve routinely run between Basingstoke and Eastleigh for work during the last few years.

AIUI there was no special gauge clearance done to allow it, which to my mind maintains the view they can basically go anywhere a Mk3 can go, within reason.

Good point, did all of these moves use the GW to Reading, or did any take the North London Line and then via Staines to join the SWML at Weybridge?
If curves on the Staines line were an issue then we could at some point see what we had at Christmas 2015, with GW trains routed Reading - Basingstoke - Waterloo. That's fairly straight apart from the final approach, so only the S curves in from Vauxhall could be an issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Good point, did all of these moves use the GW to Reading, or did any take the North London Line and then via Staines to join the SWML at Weybridge?
If curves on the Staines line were an issue then we could at some point see what we had at Christmas 2015, with GW trains routed Reading - Basingstoke - Waterloo. That's fairly straight apart from the final approach, so only the S curves in from Vauxhall could be an issue.

I think they usually ran via Reading but I wasn‘t specifically checking. AIUI there are a number of stations Reading to Virginia Water with speed restrictions for Mk3s anyway, I think because of some of the platform faces being vertical, ie with no overhang, so that’s an area that probably would require physical work for normal speed running - maybe that‘s why it hasn’t happened.