Time to reform the All Line Rover ?

[A0]

I note that some years back, a Transport Minister (I think it may have been Lord Adonis) specifically referenced the AllLine Rover as a good product offered by the railway. I don't think he would have been trying to reach just rail enthusiasts when mentioning it.

Really I'm only suggesting tweaking an existing railway product to give it more appeal to a wider travelling public, but I fear that some on here are stuck in a pre-pandemic mindset.

Nice avoiding of the points I made about the fact there are plenty of regional rovers which give the kind of coverage people want.

The reality is somebody planning a week in the UK is unlikely to be aiming to visit Penzance, Thurso, Ipswich, Pwllhelli and the Isle of Wight in a week.

Far more likely to look at Wales or Cornwall or East Anglia, all of which have day and multi day rovers. The only area which doesn't really have such a rover is the South East.

 

[Segedunum]

From experiences I've been having this week with staff, as it stands, it's clear that awareness of these tickets varies wildly. Traincrew seem to be familiar with them, with one Newcastle-based LNER TM (infamous for being strict on the rules) even asking where I was going due to the 10am rule arriving into King's Cross.

By contrast, I've just been frogmarched to Southend Victoria's excess tickets window by gateline staff and told that my ALR is in fact an expired open return. Needless to say I wasn't amused.

 

[yorksrob]

Nice avoiding of the points I made about the fact there are plenty of regional rovers which give the kind of coverage people want.

The reality is somebody planning a week in the UK is unlikely to be aiming to visit Penzance, Thurso, Ipswich, Pwllhelli and the Isle of Wight in a week.

Far more likely to look at Wales or Cornwall or East Anglia, all of which have day and multi day rovers. The only area which doesn't really have such a rover is the South East.

You've not raised any points of note other than "We've never offered it before, so somehow I know that no one will want to use it".

 

[JonathanH]

By contrast, I've just been frogmarched to Southend Victoria's excess tickets window by gateline staff and told that my ALR is in fact an expired open return. Needless to say I wasn't amused.

My guess is that Southend Victoria must be one of those places where, being at the end of the line, there aren't many tickets which don't work the barriers that are actually valid. Not necessarily the place many people would go on an all line rover either. Not that either point excuses the gateline staff misunderstanding the validity of your ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

My guess is that Southend Victoria must be one of those places where, being at the end of the line, there aren't many tickets which don't work the barriers that are actually valid. Not necessarily the place many people would go on an all line rover either. Not that either point excuses the gateline staff misunderstanding the validity of your ticket.

As "niche" as the ALR may be, the industry is getting something wrong by treating people who purchase such an expensive ticket like that, for want of a bit of better staff familiarity with it.

 

[Segedunum]

My guess is that Southend Victoria must be one of those places where, being at the end of the line, there aren't many tickets which don't work the barriers that are actually valid. Not necessarily the place many people would go on an all line rover either. Not that either point excuses the gateline staff misunderstanding the validity of your ticket.

I would have accepted that if he hasn't been so rude about it and didn't talk to me like I was daft before smirking and laughing when the woman at the fare window said it was in fact valid.

"I've not seen one of these before, what is it", is fine. "That's not valid go and buy a ticket" is not.

 

[Ianno87]

I would have accepted that if he hasn't been so rude about it and didn't talk to me like I was daft before smirking and laughing when the woman at the fare window said it was in fact valid.

"I've not seen one of these before, what is it", is fine. "That's not valid go and buy a ticket" is not.

Agree with that. The trained reaction to an unusual ticket should be to say "I've not seen one of these, let me go check", not "it's not valid".

 

[A0]

You've not raised any points of note other than "We've never offered it before, so somehow I know that no one will want to use it".

No, I questioned your (unsubstantiated) claim that there are " those people who don't travel at home that much, would consider a holiday abroad" - because I've yet to meet anyone who takes that view. Those there are might be the "2 weeks on a beach in Lanzarotte all inclusive mate" - hardly think they're going to be the kind of clientele to buy an ALR - even a flexible one - and start going to various parts of the UK.....

 

[yorksrob]

And you think that your "sample" of the population is proof that it's not worth tweaking an existing product to make it more attractive to normal punters ?

If I may say so, that's a very restrictive view of product development.

 

[30907]

At my advanced age I might go for 7 days in 14 instead of a straight 7, at a price between the 2, especially if there was an overnight trains rule like Interrail, but I think that's quite niche.

 

[A0]

And you think that your "sample" of the population is proof that it's not worth tweaking an existing product to make it more attractive to normal punters ?

If I may say so, that's a very restrictive view of product development.

Ok, go on then. Give an example of the kind of holiday itinery you think would be more attractive with changes to the ALR, because I and others on here are struggling to see it.

So give us the scenarios, sample itineries - because we're clearly not seeing something you are.

Incidentally, it wasn't particularly "my" sample - you were the one who suggested there are people who don't travel in the UK but will go abroad that would suddenly start travelling in the UK if the ALR was changed......

 

[yorksrob]

Ok, go on then. Give an example of the kind of holiday itinery you think would be more attractive with changes to the ALR, because I and others on here are struggling to see it.

So give us the scenarios, sample itineries - because we're clearly not seeing something you are.

Incidentally, it wasn't particularly "my" sample - you were the one who suggested there are people who don't travel in the UK but will go abroad that would suddenly start travelling in the UK if the ALR was changed......

I think the key thing is, you have your regional rover that allows you to explore, say the South West. However, if you live a long way away, in say Scotland, you've got to arrange to get down there. If the ALR were tweaked as I suggest, then you may wish to use the first and last days of the rover to actually travel there and back. And if you wanted to visit Aunty Flo in Conway on the way back, you may use the last two days of travel to get there and onwards, leaving two out of five days to do a bit of exploring in the South West.

Just as an example.

 

[A0]

I think the key thing is, you have your regional rover that allows you to explore, say the South West. However, if you live a long way away, in say Scotland, you've got to arrange to get down there. If the ALR were tweaked as I suggest, then you may wish to use the first and last days of the rover to actually travel there and back. And if you wanted to visit Aunty Flo in Conway on the way back, you may use the last two days of travel to get there and onwards, leaving two out of five days to do a bit of exploring in the South West.

Just as an example.

As usual a pretty marginal example.

There might be something in enabling travel into a rover area so the ability to buy a Rover with the return from your home station - the Travelcard does just this where the cost of a Travelcard bought outside the TFL area basically includes the cost of the return to the boundary. That would be more sensible than reforming the ALR. And I still don't believe it will appeal to your mythical mass that will holiday abroad but not travel in the UK.

 

[yorksrob]

As usual a pretty marginal example.

There might be something in enabling travel into a rover area so the ability to buy a Rover with the return from your home station - the Travelcard does just this where the cost of a Travelcard bought outside the TFL area basically includes the cost of the return to the boundary. That would be more sensible than reforming the ALR. And I still don't believe it will appeal to your mythical mass that will holiday abroad but not travel in the UK.

I would argue that the concept of going a long way to somewhere to explore, before visiting somewhere else on the way back isn't particularly marginal. Certainly no more marginal than the ALR is now.

Your idea of giving all regional rovers an extra to and from portion like the travelcard, would work, but I suggest that this might add complication to the ticketing system. My revamped ALR achieves all of that much more easily.

 

[A0]

I would argue that the concept of going a long way to somewhere to explore, before visiting somewhere else on the way back isn't particularly marginal. Certainly no more marginal than the ALR is now.

Your idea of giving all regional rovers an extra to and from portion like the travelcard, would work, but I suggest that this might add complication to the ticketing system. My revamped ALR achieves all of that much more easily.

Except you'd need to make the ALR alot cheaper to do that.

A 7 day ALR is currently £540.

An 8 in 15 Devon & Cornwall is currently £85. An Anglia plus 7 days is £100 for all zones.

And I suspect all that making the ALR cheaper would achieve is to increase the number of rail enthusiasts trying to cover obscure bits of track or bag certain units rather than appealing to the masses.

 

[yorksrob]

Except you'd need to make the ALR alot cheaper to do that.

A 7 day ALR is currently £540.

An 8 in 15 Devon & Cornwall is currently £85. An Anglia plus 7 days is £100 for all zones.

And I suspect all that making the ALR cheaper would achieve is to increase the number of rail enthusiasts trying to cover obscure bits of track or bag certain units rather than appealing to the masses.

Maybe that's a market the industry could accommodate better as well.

I was looking into doing one, until the reality meant that it just wasn't suitable to be a tourist as well as a track basher.

I should imagine that there is a cohort of people who genuinely enjoy rail travel, but are possibly closer to "normal" than us enthusiasts, who would enjoy a round country jolly with the right product.

 

[Peter Lanky]

It has always seemed to me that those who run the railways cannot see beyond commuting, and even today, almost all new infrastructure is based on commuting. The thought that people can use the railways for leisure seems a very long distant second place. I've just checked and the ALR costs £818 for 2 weeks, falling to £539 with a railcard. For a similar price as a railcard user, I could travel around Europe with an Interrail ticket for a month, or for the full price I could treat myself to a first class ticket.

So how does that make an ALR attractive in any way? Consider also that most of the decent trains in the UK are only for the purpose of getting to London, with the majority of others being average at best, with services and train quality getting worse as one travels away from the metropolis. At £60 a day, every day, for two weeks, one would have to an awful lot of travel to get the best value from it.

I'm sure that somebody could come up with a more attractive pricing structure, even making provision to ensure cheaper fares are not used by commuters. Not being in the industry, I cannot comment on a proposed pricing structure, but to me it is of the order of 5 times over priced to be a viable option for most people.

 

[yorksrob]

I fear that the ALR has traditionally been hobbled so as not to undermine some of our preposterous anytime fares.

 

[Peter Lanky]

I fear that the ALR has traditionally been hobbled so as not to undermine some of our preposterous anytime fares.

Those would be the ones intended for people on expenses I guess.

 

[yorksrob]

Those would be the ones intended for people on expenses I guess.

Indeed. Whether expenses continue to be so generous, remains to be seen.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Eh? So people who don't travel much in the UK are more inclined to travel abroad ergo a cheaper alternative to the ALR would appeal to those people and make them want to travel in the UK by train.

It would certainly appeal to me and persuade me from going abroad in many instances. It's quite cheap and simple (assuming non-Covid conditions) to fly abroad so that is what people do. £100 on Easyjet to somewhere in Europe or £150 (estimate from last time I looked) to Cornwall. It's an easy choice to make. So many people say they go abroad because of the prices here, and who can blame them. We are unlikely to change hotel prices, but prices for rail travel could easily be made more attractive.

What we also need are more trains going to traditional long distance holiday destinations in the UK such as Inverness or Cornwall, without need for a change. There only needs to be one a day at a suitable time to make it attractive to holidaymakers, but at the moment, there is nothing of the kind from my neck of the woods. I remember when my children were young and we went to Butlins at Pwllheli, which had a railway station actually on site where in the past, thousands would have used it on changeover day. All there was when we went however was a massive car park, where the majority of cars didn't move all week. To use the train would have taken around 8 hours and cost over £100 each.

 

[A0]

It would certainly appeal to me and persuade me from going abroad in many instances. It's quite cheap and simple (assuming non-Covid conditions) to fly abroad so that is what people do. £100 on Easyjet to somewhere in Europe or £150 (estimate from last time I looked) to Cornwall. It's an easy choice to make. So many people say they go abroad because of the prices here, and who can blame them. We are unlikely to change hotel prices, but prices for rail travel could easily be made more attractive.

What we also need are more trains going to traditional long distance holiday destinations in the UK such as Inverness or Cornwall, without need for a change. There only needs to be one a day at a suitable time to make it attractive to holidaymakers, but at the moment, there is nothing of the kind from my neck of the woods. I remember when my children were young and we went to Butlins at Pwllheli, which had a railway station actually on site where in the past, thousands would have used it on changeover day. All there was when we went however was a massive car park, where the majority of cars didn't move all week. To use the train would have taken around 8 hours and cost over £100 each.

I suspect you're an exception. Most people who travel are as happy doing it in the UK as they are overseas.

You can forget a return to trains going to "traditional holiday destinations" though. The days of running one train a day from Big City to Sunny on the Sea have gone. It's an operational nightmare and creates unreliability in the timetable. Just because the railways did such things in the 1930s or 1950s doesn't mean it is appropriate for the 2020s and beyond.

 

[43096]

You can forget a return to trains going to "traditional holiday destinations" though. The days of running one train a day from Big City to Sunny on the Sea have gone. It's an operational nightmare and creates unreliability in the timetable. Just because the railways did such things in the 1930s or 1950s doesn't mean it is appropriate for the 2020s and beyond.

Ah yes, the railway runs for its own operational convenience and not for the benefit of those who actually pay for the service.

 

[Ianno87]

Ah yes, the railway runs for its own operational convenience and not for the benefit of those who actually pay for the service.

The vast majority of whom want regular clockface point-to-point services not oddball through trains that determine your entire day out.

 

[yorksrob]

However, a reformed all line rover (as I suggest) would make it easier for people to take advantage of regular clockface timetables.

 

[ChrisC]

I’ve also never done an ALR. It’s something that I’ve considered more during these last few years since I retired and also now I have a Senior Railcard to bring the price down. It is also something that I have thought about as a post lockdown activity. As previously I have decided that in it is not for me. If I had purchased such an expensive ticket I would feel the need to get my money’s worth and use it fully every day. 7 days of intensive long distance rail travel, or even more so 14 days, with no rest days in between is not for me. Also, if not returning home each night, I would find travelling with luggage a real pain on any days when I was moving to new overnight accommodation as that would totally restrict getting off the train and exploring a location. I do appreciate that for those who are into track bashing it’s an ideal thing to do. Perhaps 30 years ago I might have enjoyed it.

A flexible ALR like 8 days in 15 is something that I might just consider or even better a certain number of days within a calendar month. The price would have to be competitive as currently lots of the regional rovers that are good value for a 7 day version are not good value for a 3 or 4 days in 7 versions. For example, a Heart of England Rover is £123 for 7 days but only reduced to £94 for the 3 day version. It’s a bit like single fares being only a few pound less than a return.

I’m a great fan of 7 day regional rovers or again even better those like in the SW that offer 8 days in 15. Most of them cover a huge area but not so expensive that you feel you need to be on a train every hour of each day. I prefer to base myself in a relatively comfortable hotel, Premier Inn standard at least but often better, and enjoy leisurely days out. I enjoy getting off the train and exploring small towns and villages, country and coastal locations, and setting off for a good walk. If, for example, I’m travelling all the way down to Penzance or up to Inverness I want to be able to spend a few days exploring the area in more detail when I get there regional rovers are still the way to go for me.

What I would like to see are more regional rovers that also include bus travel to enable you to reach the locations that are not accessible by rail. Later this year I’m down in Cornwall and the Ride Cornwall is excellent as it includes rail and most buses in Cornwall, but after recent price rises it is now £18 a day. A 7 day version even priced around £70- £80 would be very attractive.

 

[A0]

What I would like to see are more regional rovers that also include bus travel to enable you to reach the locations that are not accessible by rail. Later this year I’m down in Cornwall and the Ride Cornwall is excellent as it includes rail and most buses in Cornwall, but after recent price rises it is now £18 a day. A 7 day version even priced around £70- £80 would be very attractive.

And at that price would undercut the Devon & Cornwall rail rover.

So £20 / day for travel on all trains and buses isn't actually unreasonable or bad value - it's just that you want it even cheaper - on journies which are already heavily subsidised. So the rest of us end up subsidising your holiday.

 

[ChrisC]

And at that price would undercut the Devon & Cornwall rail rover.

So £20 / day for travel on all trains and buses isn't actually unreasonable or bad value - it's just that you want it even cheaper - on journies which are already heavily subsidised. So the rest of us end up subsidising your holiday.

Ride Cornwall only covers Cornwall and so is not totally comparable with the Devon and Cornwall rail rover. I actually think it’s still very good value at £18 a day but it’s just the amount does come to a high price if using it over 7 consecutive days. Many of these types of tickets, including the First Kernow bus tickets do have a 7 day version at a significantly reduced cost.

It’s just the convenience of it being all on one ticket. When I come down in October I think I will probably use an 8 Days in 15 Devon and Cornwall Rail Rover, as I can use that from Tiverton Parkway as part of my travel down from Nottingham, I will also get a 7 day First Kernow ticket but the Transport for Cornwall Buses then are not included without another ticket. A 7 day Ride Cornwall ticket would be a very useful and convenient alternative.

 

[HSTEd]

Trying to create excursion trains to random seaside towns is problematic in a world where people are competing with flights to places with reliable weather and lower population densities that can sustain enormous resorts if necessary.

I think the future of the railway for leisure lies in turn-up-and-go frequencies, reasonable fares, high traffic loadings and as fast as we can make them.

Cornwall will never realistically compete with the likes of Spain, but it does have the advantage that it is quite plausible that infrastructure could be built to make it into a daytrip destination for much of the population.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not convinced that Cornwall would want to be a day trip destination for much of the country. Having fewer people staying longer generates more income and less disruption than millions of day trippers.

There's plenty that the railway can do to facilitate day-trip tourism within regions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2021 ==

I'm not convinced that Cornwall would want to be a day trip destination for much of the country. Having fewer people staying longer generates more income and less disruption than millions of day trippers.

There's plenty that the railway can do to facilitate day-trip tourism within regions.