Time to reform the All Line Rover ?

[yorksrob]

I seriously considered doing my first All Line Rover as a sort of post lockdown jolly. I didn't in the end, because frankly it didn't seem like particularly good value for my needs. It struck me that if you were into track bashing and just wanted to get in milage on the trains, it would have been great. However, I wanted something a bit more main stream, taking in rail travel, visiting places and doing touristy things, rather than just sitting on trains for a whole week. In the end I bought a super off-peak return that enabled me to make a long journey over several days involving a few stopovers.

My idea is, why not re-vamp the ALR as something genuinely attractive for leisure travellers. At the risk of sounding like Leslie Crowther, even if the price is right, maybe the conditions could be altered to build exploration and travel within the country into it.

Why not turn it into a "five in ten", so that you still have the five days of travel, but you can use it to visit places inbetween. Other rovers use this sytem, so it is possible. It would be a potentially good product to entice "normal" tourists onto the railway network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exploration like that is yet another thing that would benefit from a move to single fare pricing for walk up fares. No need to delve into which returns can be split up or stuck together for a good value tour, just buy singles as you go and be assured of decent value doing so while retaining full flexibility.

 

[yorksrob]

Exploration like that is yet another thing that would benefit from a move to single fare pricing for walk up fares. No need to delve into which returns can be split up or stuck together for a good value tour, just buy singles as you go and be assured of decent value doing so while retaining full flexibility.

I suppose that could sort of work, if it was a milage based system, then every mile would cost the same. But would that provide an attractive enough offer for people to undertake that sort of a vacation.

I think the point of the ALR is, you pay a flat fare for your five days of unlimited travel, so it would presumably be priced to provide a discount over normal ticketing for a certain level of travel.

 

[Iskra]

Perhaps they could do two tiers,

A) the current ALR’s
B) a cheaper more restricted version which is something like travel flexiby on x trains per day maximum.

Obviously there are 3 in 7 and day ranger products which may already cater for the market you are aiming at?

 

[jfollows]

I don't think there's a need to reform the All Line Rover, not least because it's something the railways are required to implement and support. There'd be nothing wrong with bringing in a new product along the lines you propose, though.

I like the ALR because I can use it for leisure travel as you suggest without the need to commit to advance-purchase specific trains in advance. In all truth it's likely that I don't save money with it these days. I'll be 60 in October and I'm likely to buy a First Class ALR after that - the last time I bought an ALR in 2019 it was with a Two Together Railcard which was fine but had time restrictions in the mornings.

The ALR now has some peak restrictions which are slightly annoying but understandable - in the end the ALR was so much cheaper than the regular fares, for example Manchester-London. I used to use the ALR for peak journeys on this route before the restrictions were introduced. Today I don't really have a requirement to arrive in London as early.

I'd say leave the ALR alone and continue to compel its acceptance. By all means introduce an alternative as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose that could sort of work, if it was a milage based system, then every mile would cost the same. But would that provide an attractive enough offer for people to undertake that sort of a vacation.

I think the point of the ALR is, you pay a flat fare for your five days of unlimited travel, so it would presumably be priced to provide a discount over normal ticketing for a certain level of travel.

I wouldn't necessarily see it as replacing the ALR but it would certainly ease the sort of trip you are talking about. It already works with Advances, but if you don't like committing to specific trains it would be better to have walk up fares that way too.

 

[JonathanH]

I've never been particularly convinced of the desirability of the All-Line Rover, relative to buying day rangers or period rovers for a smaller area, but I don't advocate abolishing it.

I get some of the points 'yorksrob' has made - in particular around stopping off places and having days when there is no travel. I appreciate, however, that it would be difficult to price, in exactly the same way that the design of the flexible seasons isn't to just offer seven days travel in a fortnight / three weeks (with two days that can only be used at the weekend) at the same price as seven days travel in seven.

The flexibility seems great but, in reality, at £540 for 7 days, that works out as £77 a day - that means that someone has got to be making significant long distance trips every day to justify it, and that is more difficult with the morning restrictions. I appreciate that the flexibility can save on hotel costs as it might enable a return home every night but covering a specific area of the UK can be much more efficiently done using area rovers and an advance ticket into and out of the area as necessary.

 

[Ianno87]

The All Line Rover should absolutely have a flexi option. Presently you basically have to have 7 or 14 days of pretty solid travel to get your money's worth, so it is pretty much squarely aimed at enthusiasts. A flexi variation (e.g. 8 in 15 covering Saturday to the Sunday 2 weeks later) would open it up a bit more to "normal" use.

Why not even an 8 in 28 to match the new incoming "flexi" seasons.

 

[deltic]

The BritRail pass certainly seems far more flexible

Present offerings

Flexible – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day (valid within 1 month) and 15 Day (valid within 2 months)

Consecutive – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day, 15 Day, 22 Day, 1 Month

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for the good comments.

I appreciate that other products such as single fare pricing and regional rovers etc could facilitate these sorts of holidays, however I do think that the idea of a rover covering the whole country could be a good selling point in itself. It's just that the value for money aspect needs to be addressed - i.e. not specifically the cost, rather the way in which that cost can be used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

The BritRail pass certainly seems far more flexible

Present offerings

Flexible – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day (valid within 1 month) and 15 Day (valid within 2 months)

Consecutive – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day, 15 Day, 22 Day, 1 Month

Indeed. It's a good point that such a product is seen as beneficial to attract visitors from abroad. Why not something aimed at the UK tourist market.

 

[jfollows]

The BritRail pass certainly seems far more flexible

Present offerings

Flexible – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day (valid within 1 month) and 15 Day (valid within 2 months)

Consecutive – 2 Day, 3 Day, 4 Day, 8 Day, 15 Day, 22 Day, 1 Month

I've used a Britrail 1 Month pass in the past ... cheaper than the ALR. But I was resident in the USA at the time so I qualified ..... more recently I've used it in conjunction with US visitors who qualified but I wouldn't try and use it on my own today.

 

[Ianno87]

. Why not something aimed at the UK tourist market.

Presumably because we're already here!

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably because we're already here!

That's an interesting point. I think that there's a potential market of residents who don't get out and about within their home country that much.

 

[Ianno87]

That's an interesting point. I think that there's a potential market of residents who don't get out and about within their home country that much.

From a whole-UK point of view, all that is doing is moving spending money in one part of the country to spending money in another part of the country.

Whereas Britrail is convincing people to come spend money here rather than spend it in France/Germany/wherever

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think there's a need to reform the All Line Rover, not least because it's something the railways are required to implement and support. There'd be nothing wrong with bringing in a new product along the lines you propose, though.

I like the ALR because I can use it for leisure travel as you suggest without the need to commit to advance-purchase specific trains in advance. In all truth it's likely that I don't save money with it these days. I'll be 60 in October and I'm likely to buy a First Class ALR after that - the last time I bought an ALR in 2019 it was with a Two Together Railcard which was fine but had time restrictions in the mornings.

The ALR now has some peak restrictions which are slightly annoying but understandable - in the end the ALR was so much cheaper than the regular fares, for example Manchester-London. I used to use the ALR for peak journeys on this route before the restrictions were introduced. Today I don't really have a requirement to arrive in London as early.

I'd say leave the ALR alone and continue to compel its acceptance. By all means introduce an alternative as well.

I think that with my proposal, you would still have the option of using all of the days consecutively, so it could be the same product if you wished.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

From a whole-UK point of view, all that is doing is moving spending money in one part of the country to spending money in another part of the country.

Whereas Britrail is convincing people to come spend money here rather than spend it in France/Germany/wherever

But, I suspect that a proportion of those people who don't travel at home that much, would consider a holiday abroad, so you would end up convincing people to spend money here, rather than another country !

 

[RT4038]

I think that with my proposal, you would still have the option of using all of the days consecutively, so it could be the same product if you wished.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==



But, I suspect that a proportion of those people who don't travel at home that much, would consider a holiday abroad, so you would end up convincing people to spend money here, rather than another country !

But it is never going to be the same product. A consecutive days rover / interrail whatever will be priced on the basis that tourists are not going to be wall to wall travelling, whereas the type of ticket you propose will only be used when travel is wanted. It would be very difficult to price and have conditions that did not abstract revenue from regular non-tourist customers who buy much more expensive individual tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

But it is never going to be the same product. A consecutive days rover / interrail whatever will be priced on the basis that tourists are not going to be wall to wall travelling, whereas the type of ticket you propose will only be used when travel is wanted. It would be very difficult to price and have conditions that did not abstract revenue from regular non-tourist customers who buy much more expensive individual tickets.

But by that logic, why do we have anything other than the much more expensive individual tickets ?

The offer to the market is that you're committing people to spend £77 on railway travel five days a week over ten (or however many it is). That's still a fairly big expenditure over a short period and I bet thare aren't many leisure travellers currently spending that amount over a similar period on individual tickets !

 

[Segedunum]

What would discourage me from doing a 14 day ALR again is the fact that you feel compelled to use it every single day and get your money's worth.

I'm currently doing a 7 day ALR and with a railcard, at £356.40, it's still around £50 a day which is either incredible value or very expensive depending on how you use it.

I myself have mostly been using it on routes in the South East that don't have any corresponding leisure product or across areas that would require multiple leisure products.

For example, today I started at St Pancras, went down to Ramsgate, across to Ashford, up to Otford, then Sevenoaks, Hastings, Ashford once more, Tonbridge, London Waterloo East, across to Waterloo, Clapham, and finally East Grinstead before returning to Wembley.

Using it on HS1 or Gatwick Express (when the latter is running) on a whim is also helpful.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I plan on doing a ALR possibly this year. The one thing about it that I consider is poorish value is the 50% 1st premium - bearing in mind that vast tracts of the network carry no 1st accommodation.

 

[A0]

But, I suspect that a proportion of those people who don't travel at home that much, would consider a holiday abroad, so you would end up convincing people to spend money here, rather than another country !

Eh? So people who don't travel much in the UK are more inclined to travel abroad ergo a cheaper alternative to the ALR would appeal to those people and make them want to travel in the UK by train.

I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere, just can't see it at the moment......... I less sure it's a sizeable market which will generate revenue for the UK rail network.

 

[yorksrob]

Eh? So people who don't travel much in the UK are more inclined to travel abroad ergo a cheaper alternative to the ALR would appeal to those people and make them want to travel in the UK by train.

I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere, just can't see it at the moment......... I less sure it's a sizeable market which will generate revenue for the UK rail network.

Why is attracting people in the UK to UK destinations who wouldn't normally visit them so radically different from doing the same for people from abroad ?.

The reality is that there's nothing different in concept to an ALR on the 5- in - 10 model to the other similar rovers.

The problem is that people are still in the old pre-covid mindset of not wanting to undercut all of those non-existant business people paying outlandishly priced walk-on fares.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with many threads about fares is that they usually focus on ideas that are aimed at making it easier for existing rail users (particularly enthusiasts) to travel more at a cheaper rate than at making people who currently wouldn't think of using the railway to shift to do so.

Even at 5 in 10 days, a rail rover is still a niche idea aimed at enthusiasts and not something the general public is going to use.

Let's put it a different way - let's say there was a cap of £540 on PAYG travel in a week and PAYG travel across the network (with the same peak-time restrictions not counting towards the cap), however unlikely that is. Do you think that would attract more 'normal' passengers to the railway?

We may not like it but RDG probably do have it absolutely right about what normal passengers want - PAYG for short hops (possibly with capping) and advance fares (possibly including 'on the day') for anything long distance - the problem is the blurring at the boundary between the two.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with many threads about fares is that they usually focus on ideas that are aimed at making it easier for existing rail users (particularly enthusiasts) to travel more at a cheaper rate than at making people who currently wouldn't think of using the railway to shift to do so.

Even at 5 in 10 days, a rail rover is still a niche idea aimed at enthusiasts and not something the general public is going to use.

Let's put it a different way - let's say there was a cap of £540 on PAYG travel in a week and PAYG travel across the network (with the same peak-time restrictions not counting towards the cap), however unlikely that is. Do you think that would attract more 'normal' passengers to the railway?

We may not like it but RDG probably do have it absolutely right about what normal passengers want - PAYG for short hops and advance fares for anything long distance - the problem is the blurring at the boundary between the two.

I think its certainly the case for the ALR now as you have to be on the train permanently to get the most out of it, but is that really the case for leisure travel or is that what the industry wants to be the case ?

 

[David Goddard]

Just checked back at my records for our last two ALRs, which were in 2014 and 2016.
We did spend most of the week on the train, and did a good number of long trips such as Paignton to Glasgow, Aberdeen to London etc.

On each occasion we had the first class rover, and was discounted with a two together railcard, so we could not travel until 0930 in the week.
The 2014 one saw us cover 4,666 miles, with 4,305 in first class while in 2016 we covered 3,104 miles with 2,742 in first, so about 90% of the time was in first class accommodation. The ticket cost was about £480 so this worked out at 11p per mile in 2014 and 15p in 2016. Our aim was to enjoy the ride, see the countryside and ride routes we had not necessarily covered before, so the ALR was suited.

We did stop off in a few places, but only for a couple of hours at a time. Clearly had we stopped in more places, or for longer then mileage would have been less, so even if we did half the distance it would have been about 30p per mile for first class travel which is still much cheaper than many first class off peak returns, which can be in the region of 50p+ per mile. (example used London to Bristol First OP return route AP).

We have been thinking about doing another but now we have a little one in tow the thought of doing this with luggage and overnight stays in multiple places is a little daunting it will be for a week of day trips from home. Living at Reading we are fortunate that trains go off in multiple directions and we can cover a reasonable distance each day, but for other parts of the country where you have to travel an hour until you get to the first interchange point it would not work as well.

Choosing an ALR really does depend on what you want to do, and where you want to go. For complete flexibility to go anywhere in the country then it is a great product, and if you intend to cover at least 2,000 miles in the week then I would say it delivers great value.
If you only want to cover a smaller part of the country, or intend to just make a couple of journeys each day then it is definitely not the right choice as other options (regional rangers/rovers, regular single & returns) will e more suitable.

 

[A0]

Why is attracting people in the UK to UK destinations who wouldn't normally visit them so radically different from doing the same for people from abroad ?.

The reality is that there's nothing different in concept to an ALR on the 5- in - 10 model to the other similar rovers.

The problem is that people are still in the old pre-covid mindset of not wanting to undercut all of those non-existant business people paying outlandishly priced walk-on fares.

There are many regional rovers and rangers though.

If you're travelling from home to somwhere for a day, you're not going to travel that far otherwise you'll spend more time travelling than visiting. If you're travelling for a couple of days then you'll plan your itinery and chances are advance tickets will offer the best value.

I think your demand is best explained by @JonathanH's comment "The problem with many threads about fares is that they usually focus on ideas that are aimed at making it easier for existing rail users (particularly enthusiasts) to travel more at a cheaper rate "

 

[yorksrob]

There are many regional rovers and rangers though.

If you're travelling from home to somwhere for a day, you're not going to travel that far otherwise you'll spend more time travelling than visiting. If you're travelling for a couple of days then you'll plan your itinery and chances are advance tickets will offer the best value.

I think your demand is best explained by @JonathanH's comment "The problem with many threads about fares is that they usually focus on ideas that are aimed at making it easier for existing rail users (particularly enthusiasts) to travel more at a cheaper rate "

I note that some years back, a Transport Minister (I think it may have been Lord Adonis) specifically referenced the AllLine Rover as a good product offered by the railway. I don't think he would have been trying to reach just rail enthusiasts when mentioning it.

Really I'm only suggesting tweaking an existing railway product to give it more appeal to a wider travelling public, but I fear that some on here are stuck in a pre-pandemic mindset.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I plan on doing a ALR possibly this year. The one thing about it that I consider is poorish value is the 50% 1st premium - bearing in mind that vast tracts of the network carry no 1st accommodation.

All of the ALRs I have ever done have been 1st class, although I have one planned for July so may have to decide with the current reduced offerings whether it is worth paying the extra.

It's always been enjoyable on the long distance services travelling in 1st, especially on those which (used to) provide decent hot catering and alcohol etc, plus use of the lounges where applicable but I agree it does mean I tend to avoid certain areas that are "standard only".

 

[HST43257]

Have multiple different ones like so

3 in 7 or 4 in 8
7 in 7
7 in 14
14 in 14

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Have multiple different ones like so

3 in 7 or 4 in 8
7 in 7
7 in 14
14 in 14

That option, suitably priced, would be superb!

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that fares on British railways are too high to sustain tourist passes like Japan Rail Pass or similar.

Unless fare rises can be held well below inflation, and I have little confidence they could be, this is likely to remain true forever.