Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[HST274]

Rail Britannia
Britannia rules the rails

But in Comic Sans.

Sorted.

And here everyone is the incredibly catchy original jingle:
Rail Britannia, Britannia rules the rails,
GBRrrrrr (said fast) never never never shall fail
((Sung) like arguably the half nationalisation and the half privatisation diiiiiiiid (but let's not talk about that))

Perhaps this would be played with a backdrop of a train in full union jack livery, rallying the patriots. Maybe even some British soldiers from one hundred years ago on horseback (With GBR livery of course on the horse dressing)?

 

[Gareth]

You really can't help it, some of you. It's like an itch that you can't ignore.

 

[ScottGallagher]

How about incorporating some red into the SWR livery, I would put it down as that it's a closest modern equivalent to BR blue and white/grey. Perhaps dark red surrounding the doors in the style of London Midland? I wouldn't have faintest idea how to illustrate so if somebody doesnt mind having a stab if it's worth it!!

 

[JaJaWa]

Second (non-speculative) article from The Beauty of Transport states that London Paddington will be the first station to get GBR signage, pre-Crossrail opening: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-2/

There’s also a video preview of it at Liverpool Street:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Second (non-speculative) article from The Beauty of Transport states that London Paddington will be the first station to get GBR signage, pre-Crossrail opening: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-2/

There’s also a video preview of it at Liverpool Street:
View attachment 97020

Thanks for that. I hadn't quite picked up how different Rail Alphabet 2 was from the original, probably because everyone seems to be using the original on all their mocked-up stuff - it's an attractive, modern font as I was calling for.

I'm less of a fan of black on white, it's just a bit boring and has no character - but it is at least clear.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Thanks for that. I hadn't quite picked up how different Rail Alphabet 2 was from the original, probably because everyone seems to be using the original on all their mocked-up stuff - it's an attractive, modern font as I was calling for.

I'm less of a fan of black on white, it's just a bit boring and has no character - but it is at least clear.

White will certainly brighten up more dull stations such as Liv Street.

 

[JaJaWa]

Thanks for that. I hadn't quite picked up how different Rail Alphabet 2 was from the original, probably because everyone seems to be using the original on all their mocked-up stuff - it's an attractive, modern font as I was calling for.

I'm less of a fan of black on white, it's just a bit boring and has no character - but it is at least clear.

The new font is available to download from here https://www.ribacompetitions.com/reimaginingrailwaystations/ or I've zipped it here for convenience https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NlG0ubHS5A-vJl9QSKMM9IYid19lM99/

You may also wish to check out The Beauty of Transport's first post about it: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/

My initial thoughts: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-predictions-speculation.217434/post-5135558

The GBR Wayfinding design manual: https://files.whatdotheyknow.com/request/request_for_updated_wayfinding_m/NR_GN_CIV_300_01.pdf

 

[Gareth]

I don't think you can go wrong with a black on white sign with the double arrow on it. Though, navy blue would look smart.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The new font is available to download from here https://www.ribacompetitions.com/reimaginingrailwaystations/ or I've zipped it here for convenience https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NlG0ubHS5A-vJl9QSKMM9IYid19lM99/

You may also wish to check out The Beauty of Transport's first post about it: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/

My initial thoughts: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-predictions-speculation.217434/post-5135558

The GBR Wayfinding design manual: https://files.whatdotheyknow.com/request/request_for_updated_wayfinding_m/NR_GN_CIV_300_01.pdf

Thank you for the font downloads!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2021 ==

I don't think you can go wrong with a black on white sign with the double arrow on it. Though, navy blue would look smart.

The beauty of having such a simple design is that it doesn't age!

Example - the Double Arrows logo!

 

[YorksLad12]

The new font is available to download from here https://www.ribacompetitions.com/reimaginingrailwaystations/ or I've zipped it here for convenience https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NlG0ubHS5A-vJl9QSKMM9IYid19lM99/

You may also wish to check out The Beauty of Transport's first post about it: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/

My initial thoughts: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-predictions-speculation.217434/post-5135558

The GBR Wayfinding design manual: https://files.whatdotheyknow.com/request/request_for_updated_wayfinding_m/NR_GN_CIV_300_01.pdf

Thanks. I do like a good corporate ID manual. Really

The Beauty of Transport is always worth a read as well. I'm not overly keen on the large numbers and arrows for the platforms and other signs as shown in the picture, and they won't work at all stations (such as Leeds) - but I'd rather they tried something different. Just so long as it's consistent...

 

[Irascible]

The beauty of having such a simple design is that it doesn't age!

This is true of a lot of branding from the time ( the British Steel logo is another great minimalist design ) - the blue & grey colours, not so much, although, yes, it's vaguely red/white/blue if you take all the colours in the manual. The double-arrow logo is the defacto symbol on maps & signage for a station even if it wasn't ever used for railway branding again though, so it's really a sensible choice to use it *somewhere*. At least anywhere there's an entrance.

Thanks. I do like a good corporate ID manual. Really

You too huh? I must admit despite actually disliking marketing itself and also generally corporations large enough to need a manual, I'm also fascinated by the manuals & the design process itself.

 

[winks]

Was guna say will be a shame to lose the GWR branding etc and First Group have put a lot of effort into this line. Perhaps GBR will take over various TOCs over a set time period 5-10 years for example ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Was guna say will be a shame to lose the GWR branding etc and First Group have put a lot of effort into this line. Perhaps GBR will take over various TOCs over a set time period 5-10 years for example ?

There’s no evidence route specific branding such as GWR green will be changed. DfT’s view was that it would belong to the route in future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think you can go wrong with a black on white sign with the double arrow on it. Though, navy blue would look smart.

Yes, I think the current NR blue looks good.

 

[Goldfish62]

There’s no evidence route specific branding such as GWR green will be changed. DfT’s view was that it would belong to the route in future.

That was DfT's view under the now-defunct franchising regime. That has been superceded.

Having a new unified national brand replacing the current plethora of unrelated brands, as is stated in the government document will happen, would be nonsensical if then the current TOC brands were also allowed to persist.

The whole point of GBR is that passengers will see it as one national network, not like the current situation.

 

[swt_passenger]

That was DfT's view under the now-defunct franchising regime. That has been superceded.

Having a new unified national brand replacing the current plethora of unrelated brands, as is stated in the government document will happen, would be nonsensical if then the current TOC brands were also allowed to persist.

The whole point of GBR is that passengers will see it as one national network, not like the current situation.

Well I still don’t think they will be able to afford to relivery the entire national fleet out of planned maintenance requirements. If it happens it will take many years.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well I still don’t think they will be able to afford to relivery the entire national fleet out of planned maintenance requirements. If it happens it will take many years.

Agreed. It'll be like moving from green to BR blue or from BR blue to sectors. It's nothing new and unlike with finite franchises there's no time constraint.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having a new unified national brand replacing the current plethora of unrelated brands, as is stated in the government document will happen, would be nonsensical if then the current TOC brands were also allowed to persist.
The whole point of GBR is that passengers will see it as one national network, not like the current situation.

Consider SNCF. A variety of brands, not necessarily showing an SNCF ownership (eg Oui, Ouigo, iDTGV).
And the regional TERs have localised branding.
I don't think we can second-guess what GBR will look like to the public.
BR itself had largely become 3 passenger sectors by the end, with their own branding/marketing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think the issue is people have run out of ideas and so come up with utter rubbish like Avanti and LNWR.

Which look far far better and more appropriate for the 21st century than the epistemic and antiquated British Rail liveries

 

[43096]

Yes, I think the current NR blue looks good.

I would suggest reading the “Beauty of Transport” site link that JaJaWa linked to above which describes why the black-on-white is better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest reading the “Beauty of Transport” site link that JaJaWa linked to above which describes why the black-on-white is better.

I did read it, and I don't agree it is better. Bland, bland, bland.

Let's see which European countries agree with me;

1. France
2. Germany
3. Belgium
4. Austria
5. Switzerland
6. Netherlands
7. ...

White on blue is the European norm.

I vastly prefer this one. Clear, modern, attractive. Has a nice premium look about it.

Silly question - why do we persist with the odd "way out" when everyone else uses "exit"?

Proposed white on blue look, (c) Spaceagency, from The Beauty of Transport https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/

 

[YorksLad12]

You too huh? I must admit despite actually disliking marketing itself and also generally corporations large enough to need a manual, I'm also fascinated by the manuals & the design process itself.

Kindred spirit? I have a certain amount of respect for designs when given a brief like this - tightly specified, black on white - still manage to come up with something different and consistent. The manual suits my organised, Chartered Librarian mind while the design suits my creative, Chartered PR practitioner mind!

It's not just about slapping a logo on something and claiming ownership.

 

[43096]

I did read it, and I don't agree it is better. Bland, bland, bland.

Let's see which European countries agree with me;

1. France
2. Germany
3. Belgium
4. Austria
5. Switzerland
6. Netherlands
7. ...

White on blue is the European norm.

And your expertise on this is what, exactly?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Which look far far better and more appropriate for the 21st century than the epistemic and antiquated British Rail liveries

You say avanti looks 21st century! I have a thing to say about that.

Avanti


BR Blue


They both use a rather similar shade of teal!

To the naked eye, you could be fooled into thinking it's a BR blue ripoff!

 

[jon0844]

That was DfT's view under the now-defunct franchising regime. That has been superceded.

Having a new unified national brand replacing the current plethora of unrelated brands, as is stated in the government document will happen, would be nonsensical if then the current TOC brands were also allowed to persist.

The whole point of GBR is that passengers will see it as one national network, not like the current situation.

At the end of the day, the cost of putting new vinyls on all rolling stock (as against just peeling off the TOC sticker on top of whatever is currently used) and changing every wayfinding sign on every single station is going to cost a fortune - not least the logistics involved in doing it. You can't do trains until they're in the depot, and even wayfinding signs likely need to be done outside of operating hours (or a lot of them at least) so that's a lot of contractors working during the night or when there are shutdowns.

To a lesser extent, you also have the changes you need to make on current TOC websites, TVMs (not just on the cabinets, but the graphics on the screen).

So, I think it will be a rather haphazard process that will take a few years, perhaps even longer, and will consist of a few high-profile rebrands - like terminal stations and other big interchanges.

I can see trains looking much the same for a while.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Kindred spirit? I have a certain amount of respect for designs when given a brief like this - tightly specified, black on white - still manage to come up with something different and consistent. The manual suits my organised, Chartered Librarian mind while the design suits my creative, Chartered PR practitioner mind!

It's not just about slapping a logo on something and claiming ownership.

It's straight out of about 1979. Harking back to something that really was not that good for the passenger, though it was efficient for the taxpayer.

Hideous.

We should move forwards, not backwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2021 ==

And your expertise on this is what, exactly?

What has my expertise got to do with it? I am a customer and taxpayer - you know, the people who pay for the playing of trains - and my opinion is that black on white signage looks cheap, old-fashioned and generally nasty. It harks back to "halcyon" days of a basic, dirty railway run for its own convenience, not a modern, dynamic, customer-focussed future.

1980s BR really was rubbish. I don't see why people are harking back to it.

And this isn't just from memory. At the end of the VT franchise Warrington BQ was done out in a full set of BR style white signage (presumably because it needed doing and they didn't know what else to use, though I think Avanti have now gone over the top with vinyls). It looked awful. Basic and cheap.

 

[YorksLad12]

It's straight out of about 1979. Harking back to something that really was not that good for the passenger, though it was efficient for the taxpayer.

Hideous.

We should move forwards, not backwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2021 ==



What has my expertise got to do with it? I am a customer and taxpayer - you know, the people who pay for the playing of trains - and my opinion is that black on white signage looks cheap, old-fashioned and generally nasty. It harks back to "halcyon" days of a basic, dirty railway run for its own convenience, not a modern, dynamic, customer-focussed future.

1980s BR really was rubbish. I don't see why people are harking back to it.

And this isn't just from memory. At the end of the VT franchise Warrington BQ was done out in a full set of BR style white signage (presumably because it needed doing and they didn't know what else to use, though I think Avanti have now gone over the top with vinyls). It looked awful. Basic and cheap.

Except, of course, there's way more British Rail black-on-white out there than there is Railtrack/Network Rail white-on-blue. The trick wth the new branding will be to make it look no cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except, of course, there's way more British Rail black-on-white out there than there is Railtrack/Network Rail white-on-blue.

Yes, true.

The trick wth the new branding will be to make it look no cheap.

I don't think that's possible with black-on-white. There needs to be a strong branding designed, and those design elements to pervade everything, e.g. signage. DB do it very well, for instance.

I still think getting Best Impressions in would be better than someone who harks back to old BR.

The only thing I'd hold over from "old BR" is the double arrow itself, which never really went away anyway.

 

[Irascible]

Kindred spirit? I have a certain amount of respect for designs when given a brief like this - tightly specified, black on white - still manage to come up with something different and consistent. The manual suits my organised, Chartered Librarian mind while the design suits my creative, Chartered PR practitioner mind!

It's not just about slapping a logo on something and claiming ownership.

Appeals to me both with a software developer hat & ( from many years ago ) an engineer hat - that collision of art & structure, I think.

I have a bit of Irlen syndrome, bolder black typeface on light background ( not pure white, but nothing outside stays pure white for long ) is far easier on the eyes than thin white on dark, from a practical point of view.

 

[JaJaWa]

I don't think that's possible with black-on-white. There needs to be a strong branding designed, and those design elements to pervade everything, e.g. signage. DB do it very well, for instance.

TfL certainly manage.