Rail operator plans new 140mph service to London

[tbtc]

One argument for Open Access is surely choice, people should have a choice with who they travel with, it's all about competition. As someone mentioned above the franchised operator only has themselves to blame if they're losing passengers to open access operators.

I do think however, that Alliance could have thought their routes through just a little bit more. There's quite a lot of duplication and not a lot of imagination, I'm very surprised something like this hasn't been considered:

Colne > Burnley > Blackburn > Bolton > Manchester Oxford Road > Manchester Airport > Lichfield Trent Valley > Tamworth > Northampton > Watford Junction > London Euston

Blue = no direct service to Manchester
Red = no direct service to London
Green = no direct service to either

Colne - Burnley - Manchester would be a better use of resources than spending tens of millions to reopen the Skipton - Colne line

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Colne - Burnley - Manchester would be a better use of resources than spending tens of millions to reopen the Skipton - Colne line

Aye, but it would require redoubling for at least Darwen-Blackburn or Sough Tunnel south-Bromley Cross (a landslip means that you cannot easily re-double Sough Tunnel), and I'm not sure about paths Bolton-Manchester. I would also suspect Clitheroe would get the second train, or it would be a Blackburn terminator before extenstions to Accy, Burnley etc. Easier just to reopen Rose Grove bay and reinstate the Todmorden Curve to help out Burnley-Manchester passengers

 

[Lampshade]

They're the calling points, I was debating adding stops at maybe Accrington and Salford Crescent but adding too many stops in would just make it too slow. Too many stops south of Manchester and people would just bail in Manchester and catch a Pendolino (otherwise I'd have put in Alderley Edge and Nuneaton); too many stops north of Manchester and people would just drive.

Adding Cherry Tree in would be a bit pointless (sorry), it'd be easier to just drive into Blackburn (or walk, it's what, 2 miles?) and would deviate from the route as it would go from Blackburn to Bolton via Darwen rather than via Chorley.

 

[Zoe]

My money is on Class 93 for the locos

Since when is the IEP loco and stock? It was understanding that it is to be an MU. The dft specification actually says it must be able to split en-route and operate as discrete units so this does indeed suggest an MU.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They're the calling points, I was debating adding stops at maybe Accrington and Salford Crescent but adding too many stops in would just make it too slow. Too many stops south of Manchester and people would just bail in Manchester and catch a Pendolino (otherwise I'd have put in Alderley Edge and Nuneaton); too many stops north of Manchester and people would just drive.

Adding Cherry Tree in would be a bit pointless (sorry), it'd be easier to just drive into Blackburn (or walk, it's what, 2 miles?) and would deviate from the route as it would go from Blackburn to Bolton via Darwen rather than via Chorley.

Sorry, misread route... Cherry Tree is about 2.5 miles from Blackburn station by road, but seems a really long walking! But with a 59 minute connection in Preston for London from Colne, it may be worth it Blackburn-Bamber Bridge-Leyland-Chorley-as done... I would recommend adding Nelson and Accrington in East Lancs though. I don't actually know if there is capacity on the Colne Branch, so Blackburn may be the best place to terminate, actually add Darwen too... via Chorley would be far easier for capacity, Blaackburn-Bolton can be a bit tight

 

[tbtc]

Aye, but it would require redoubling for at least Darwen-Blackburn or Sough Tunnel south-Bromley Cross (a landslip means that you cannot easily re-double Sough Tunnel), and I'm not sure about paths Bolton-Manchester

...hence why I've suggested (in the SELRAP thread) getting three pacers to tag a Colne portion onto the Victoria - Clitheroe train (bulking up the service on the core section, no additional paths needed on the single track section, no additional paths needed on the Bolton - Salford - Victoria section, a direct service to Burnley) etc

 

[Invincibles]

How about

Colne -> Burnley Central -> Accrington -> Blackburn -> Bamber Bridge (for Preston) pick up the wires on the juntion at Lostock, then Wigan, Warrington, Crewe, Stafford, Northampton, London (add any trent valley stops that people feel are appropriate. Personally I would alternate Tamworth and Nuneaton)

This would plug the lack of Wigan/Warrington to Stafford direct as well as giving the train fast options to London. Picking up the wires on the curve before joining the WCML seems sensible.

Virgin might even like this as they could remove the Wigan and Warrington stops from some services and speed up their Glasgow/Carlisle/Preston to London times in the hours the OA train runs.

If the real aim was to get a fast service then dropping Northampton for Rugby could be done, I do not know what the market for Stafford to Northampton is like. Northampton to London presumably makes sense on ORCATS though.

Manchester Airport would be good to be integrated into the midlands, maybe Manchester Airport -> Crewe -> Stoke -> Tamworth/Nuneaton -> Northampton -> London Euston.

Could resolve any problems with traffic around Salford Crescent and there must be a market Stoke to the airport if the train is timed well enough?

 

[Aictos]

Well discussing of any Open Access Operators in Lancashire, don't forget Accrington used to be a junction with lines diverging from Leeds off to Blackpool and Manchester - pity the Manchester lines got ripped up in the 60s though but if the lines were still there who knowns, maybe we might have seen a Skipton to Manchester service via Accrington.

Far better if the line was still there as well as the section between Skipton and Colne to run a Skipton to Blackpool/Manchester service splitting at Preston.

 

[Geezertronic]

I would have thought that running the service via Northampton would make it a semi fast service rather than a fast service?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I would have thought that running the service via Northampton would make it a semi fast service rather than a fast service?

It only adds 10-15 mins on I'd say, 20 at best, and I doubt many paths exist via Kilsby.

 

[matt]

It only adds 10-15 mins on I'd say, 20 at best, and I doubt many paths exist via Kilsby.

Would be closer to 30 mins extra via Northampton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It is if you call. 9tph directionally, all at 125mph in parts, use Kilsby, whereas Northampton has 3tph directionally (I haven't checked that but I think that is correct) plus freight, so it would be easier for new services to go via Northampton. Actually thinking about it, it is closer to 20-25.

 

[Lampshade]

My inclusion of Northampton was based around there being pretty much no direct links to the East Midlands/Trent Valley from the North West. Northampton is a major population centre so the scope for direct travel between NMP/TAM/LTV and Manchester/Airport is huge. London is just an afterthought on this one... *cough*ORCATS*cough*.

 

[MCR247]

Actually thinking about it, it is closer to 20-25.

Where did you get that from?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Checking engineering work diversion timings, checking timetabling, and comparing this to Kilsby. I'll find out though for sure from someone who does know. I was actually under the impression that it was to give Northampton increased IC services, not about 'let's get everyone to London' that VT now feel is neccesary.

 

[rail-britain]

it would be easier for new services to go via Northampton. Actually thinking about it, it is closer to 20-25.

One of the Euston - Manchester services I was on last year was diverted via Northampton, due to a signalling problem
This added just under 20 minutes, arriving into Manchester 15 minutes late

 

[The Planner]

Ignore the engineering work timings, they have significant amounts of recovery in them to allow for all sorts of situations such as SLW and half Rugby blocks. No reason why you couldnt run via Weedon if you've got 125mph stock, headways are low enough.

I'll need to have a look but I can't see why running via Northampton is going to nobble you for half an hour. Rugby to Milton Keynes is about 18-19 minutes on a Pendo via Weedon, going via Northampton isnt much more than 30-35.

 

[matt]

My 30 minute comment referred to the time it would take via Northampton. I hadn't taken into account the time it takes via Weedon, apologies

 

[yorkie]

not about 'let's get everyone to London' that VT now feel is necessary.

What makes you think VT have that policy?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The fact that Glasgow services are last stop Warrington BQ, Liverpool's are last stop Stafford, and 2/3 of Manchester trains are last stop Stoke/Crewe. tehy have left Watford Jn and Rugby with no IC service to speak of (Bhm from Rugby on VT isn't IC), and Watford has Birmingham trains already. Only MKC has half-decent IC services now, and frankly the fact that 1/2 of all VT services are last stop 125+ outside of London. Take the scanerio of living in MK and needing to get to Glasgow. how long does it take now? Pre-VHF there were 5/6 direct trains a day, now there's one in the early hours to Glasgow, and one in the late hours to Preston. I know it isn't up to them to designate what services call where, but AFAIC, the VHF timetable is too focussed on getting everyone to London as quick as possible, eliminating the likes of Nuneaton etc from a proper London/Manchester/wherever service

 

[yorkie]

I know it isn't up to them to designate what services call where

Indeed it isn't. So why blame them?

Yes, the argument is a valid one, but why blame Virgin for that?

 

[Old Timer]

.....I'll need to have a look but I can't see why running via Northampton is going to nobble you for half an hour. Rugby to Milton Keynes is about 18-19 minutes on a Pendo via Weedon, going via Northampton isnt much more than 30-35.

It depends what else is going down into the Black Hole.

With the restriction at Northampton Station, following trains tend to stack up and thern Drivers will start to hang back waiting to follow Greens, so whilst the first into the Black Hole might be lucky to get through with 10 mins lost subsequent trains lose more.

Then of course there are the speed restrictions at Rugby, espacially on the Down Northampton Flyover

Most of us would immediately estimate 20 down if the train heads in that direction. Anything less is a benefit.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed it isn't. So why blame them?

Yes, the argument is a valid one, but why blame Virgin for that?

Actually meant to put NR in that context, not VT.

 

[yorkie]

Actually meant to put NR in that context, not VT.

Are you sure about that? You may want to have another go...

It's the DfT who determine the timetable.

 

[Old Timer]

Indeed it isn't. So why blame them?

Yes, the argument is a valid one, but why blame Virgin for that?

In BR days Class 1s only stopped to pick up / set down in the morning and evening "business Peaks".

Outside that time little stopped Class1 -wise

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Are you sure about that? You may want to have another go...

It's the DfT who determine the timetable.

TBH yorkie I couldn't care less, whoever creates them ought to be shot for the absolute horrendous mess they made of an IC timetable.

 

[MCR247]

I think it is quite good. But to be fair to them, they have got to do what the majority of the passengers want. The amount of money & pax they might have lost will be nowhere near the amount of money/pax they have gained by having faster more frequent trains, which wouldn't have been possible without missing out a few stops

 

[Old Timer]

The Watford Jct stops were aimed at catching the Business traveller who did not want to take a train to Euston or drive into central London from outside the London boundary. A similar reason underlied the Stevenage calls.

Although in theory St Albans should have been the same, Luton (because of the airport) was the nearest comparison on The Midland.

 

[The Planner]

Then of course there are the speed restrictions at Rugby, espacially on the Down Northampton Flyover

Most of us would immediately estimate 20 down if the train heads in that direction. Anything less is a benefit.

Thats assuming something has gone tits up, on greens there shouldnt be anymore than that. The down Northampton at 40 is a bit of a killer though, soon as you're off that you are away though.

 

[Old Timer]

Thats assuming something has gone tits up, on greens there shouldnt be anymore than that. The down Northampton at 40 is a bit of a killer though, soon as you're off that you are away though.

I remember that in years gone by there used to be 6 sets of catch points in the Down Northampton between Market Harborough Jct and Althorpe Park.

Clipped them up many times whilst introducing emergency SLW. Used to add about an hour to the running time !