Mixed news from France

[miami]

Only tunnel that was bombed in recent times that I can think of was the Picadilly line. Madrid was just a normal commuter train wasn't it? If you want to cause maximum impact, put a bomb in a suitcase on a train going into a London terminal at peak time - you don't even need a suicide bomber, just have them get off a stop before, you'll have far more impact than anything a metal detector at St Pancras will catch. A bomb on a packed tube train (like the Russel Square one) will have far more impact than a bomb in the channel tunnel.

Seems that in bygone times, Italy suffered a fair bit from train bombings in tunnels (Italicus Express etc). I don't recall ever going through a metal detector to get a Trenitalia train.

I can think of more than one time the channel tunnel was closed due to accidental fires though, I'd have thought a car with a tank full of fuel would be far more concern than someone boarding a eurostar with a screwdriver.

 

[cle]

The kicker for Bordeaux, and why Avignon TGV especially is so great, is because it is basically an airport in terms of facilities and use (and feel). Car rentals, pick-ups, onward transport, mass parking.

Bordeaux's station is not that, and unless doing a city break only, many folks will need a car on arrival. But this may now apply to Parisians too, who of course are using the train a lot more than before. So perhaps better facilities will come.

That said, I can see a similar demand as for the Med service. It's hugely popular.

 

[Roast Veg]

Dare I say this might make for an interesting sleeper?

 

[miami]

Dare I say this might make for an interesting sleeper?

From Paris? Too short surely?

 

[Austriantrain]

The kicker for Bordeaux, and why Avignon TGV especially is so great, is because it is basically an airport in terms of facilities and use (and feel). Car rentals, pick-ups, onward transport, mass parking.

Bordeaux's station is not that, and unless doing a city break only, many folks will need a car on arrival. But this may now apply to Parisians too, who of course are using the train a lot more than before. So perhaps better facilities will come.

Very easy to rent a car at Bordeaux St Jean station. I know it because I’ve done it.

I would guess the typical TGV customers rather appreciate arriving in the city center of Bordeaux. Especially since for French passengers with other destinations, TGVs serve a lot of different stations as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

The kicker for Bordeaux, and why Avignon TGV especially is so great, is because it is basically an airport in terms of facilities and use (and feel). Car rentals, pick-ups, onward transport, mass parking.

Bordeaux's station is not that, and unless doing a city break only, many folks will need a car on arrival. But this may now apply to Parisians too, who of course are using the train a lot more than before. So perhaps better facilities will come.

That said, I can see a similar demand as for the Med service. It's hugely popular.

Bordeaux St Jean is relatively easy for onward travel, and hiring a car / driving in out also pretty straightforward.

 

[peteb]

We are all disregarding the fact that virtually noone has travelled into Europe since January 1st by plane or train. We have no idea how post brexit journeys will be affected by immigration checks etc with normal (i.e. pre-covid) numbers of passengers. Yes it used to be possible to waltz into an airport with 45 minutes to take off and sail through security, but in future who knows? And our EU friends may make us queue to get through immigration on arrival. Try getting stuck behind a Dreamliner full of non EU tourists and your short hop to CDG might end up a long haul. So train may still beat plane in the future.....

 

[Bald Rick]

We are all disregarding the fact that virtually noone has travelled into Europe since January 1st by plane or train. We have no idea how post brexit journeys will be affected by immigration checks etc with normal (i.e. pre-covid) numbers of passengers. Yes it used to be possible to waltz into an airport with 45 minutes to take off and sail through security, but in future who knows? And our EU friends may make us queue to get through immigration on arrival. Try getting stuck behind a Dreamliner full of non EU tourists and your short hop to CDG might end up a long haul. So train may still beat plane in the future.....

Surely that will be the same on Eurostar?

 

[miami]

Surely that will be the same on Eurostar?

Of course it will

I've got through security at Schengen airports

45 minutes is not a waltz - even at Heathrow. I'd be quite relaxed enterring security at t-45 even for a long haul flight from heathrow (at least without all this ridiculous covid palarver), let alone one leaving from an A gate.

I fail to see how there would be any extra time taken for a flight from London to Madrid now than before brexit, the UK does not have on-exit passport checks.

On the way back, sure, leaving schengen may take a bit longer thanks to our idiocy, but the same would apply to getting on the train, except a plane with 200 seats will have 100 brits queing, a train with 1000 seats will have 500 brits queueing (although in reality it will be having to get off at liile, trapse through security theatre and immigration paranoia, and hope you don't miss the train).

 

[Chester1]

Of course it will

I've got through security at Schengen airports

45 minutes is not a waltz - even at Heathrow. I'd be quite relaxed enterring security at t-45 even for a long haul flight from heathrow (at least without all this ridiculous covid palarver), let alone one leaving from an A gate.

I fail to see how there would be any extra time taken for a flight from London to Madrid now than before brexit, the UK does not have on-exit passport checks.

On the way back, sure, leaving schengen may take a bit longer thanks to our idiocy, but the same would apply to getting on the train, except a plane with 200 seats will have 100 brits queing, a train with 1000 seats will have 500 brits queueing (although in reality it will be having to get off at liile, trapse through security theatre and immigration paranoia, and hope you don't miss the train).

Your forgetting the launch of the EUs ETIAS on 1st January 2022. I doubt normal passenger numbers will return by then. Once it launches citizens of 62 countries, including the UK, won't need stamps in their passports. It will essentially reduce the level of in journey checks on Brits almost (but not quite) back to pre brexit levels. We will need to pay €7 for three years pre authorisation to travel. Priti Patel announced today that the UK's prototype system (that is currently used by citizens of four rich Middle Eastern countries) will be rolled out fully by 2025 for all arrivals that are not British, Irish, residents or that require a visitor visa. Its not clear where Schengen will be in the roll out.

 

[Austriantrain]

As always, the only real solution is to have regular E* to Lille, good connections onwards from Lille Europe (not Flandres), and affordable through fares (with easy re-booking in case of a delay). That way, most „rail-friendly“ travelers will be served well. If you can justify a weekly or bi-weekly direct service, very well, but it will not make a large difference, especially if on the return you have to go through security and passport control at Lille anyway.

Unfortunately, neither E* not SNCF seem to be interested in connecting passengers.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Surely that will be the same on Eurostar?

No it won't.
1) Juxtaposed controls take place on Eurostar. Passengers leaving the UK have their passports examined at St Pancras by French border control staff.
2) On the whole only one Eurostar (possibly two) will be checked in at the same time. The potential numbers are far lower than may be experienced at an airport where several flights may arrive in a short space of time.

 

[Wolfie]

No it won't.
1) Juxtaposed controls take place on Eurostar. Passengers leaving the UK have their passports examined at St Pancras by French border control staff.
2) On the whole only one Eurostar (possibly two) will be checked in at the same time. The potential numbers are far lower than may be experienced at an airport where several flights may arrive in a short space of time.

Absolutely and to be blunt, given the way the two Govts have been acting lately, the absolute last country l would wish to be handling outbound immigration checks is France. The French Govt is mighty peed off and has no incentive to make things smooth for Brits.

 

[Chester1]

Absolutely and to be blunt, given the way the two Govts have been acting lately, the absolute last country l would wish to be handling outbound immigration checks is France. The French Govt is mighty peed off and has no incentive to make things smooth for Brits.

Its their loss. I got through Portuguese passport control quickly this week. If governments allow regular long queues for Brits then it will damage their tourism industries. No one is likely to be keen to return to a place where they spent an excessive amount of time queueing at the airport (or station). Once ETIAS launches there will be no excuse for not processing Brits quickly. They can blame brexit but it will be either poor management or a deliberate decision.

 

[miami]

1) Juxtaposed controls take place on Eurostar. Passengers leaving the UK have their passports examined at St Pancras by French border control staff.

So longer "checkin" process

And the ridiculous decamping at Lille on the return

2) On the whole only one Eurostar (possibly two) will be checked in at the same time. The potential numbers are far lower than may be experienced at an airport where several flights may arrive in a short space of time.

Not at beaudaux. I've had far longer queues at St Pancreas than at Brussels airport. The only airport I can think where queues are >30 minutes is Dulles (which is why I fly to Baltimore)

 

[philg999]

We are all disregarding the fact that virtually noone has travelled into Europe since January 1st by plane or train. We have no idea how post brexit journeys will be affected by immigration checks etc with normal (i.e. pre-covid) numbers of passengers. Yes it used to be possible to waltz into an airport with 45 minutes to take off and sail through security, but in future who knows? And our EU friends may make us queue to get through immigration on arrival. Try getting stuck behind a Dreamliner full of non EU tourists and your short hop to CDG might end up a long haul. So train may still beat plane in the future.....

I’ve flown into Schipol before covid often late at night when all the egates are closed, landing just after flights from Africa and often had to wait 45-60 mins to get past immigration. And even trying to fly out from there to London at around 8am when the egates are closed, often involved a 30 min queue.
Schengen immigration in+out without egates is awful:

 

[Chester1]

I’ve flown into Schipol before covid often late at night when all the egates are closed, landing just after flights from Africa and often had to wait 45-60 mins to get past immigration. And even trying to fly out from there to London at around 8am when the egates are closed, often involved a 30 min queue.
Schengen immigration in+out without egates is awful:

ETIAS will change this substantially. Apart from the security benefits that drove its creation, it removes most checks of non EU citizens and will be used by Citizens of 62 countries.

 

[miami]

landing just after flights from Africa

How many flights from Africa arrive at Bordeaux when the e-gates are closed?

 

[Austriantrain]

ETIAS will change this substantially. Apart from the security benefits that drove its creation, it removes most checks of non EU citizens and will be used by Citizens of 62 countries.

Where does your claim come from? I cannot find a source for it. ETIAS seems to be a pre-clearance just as ESTA and will certainly speed up border checks, but hard to imagine that ETIAS holders will simply walk through the border without any check at all.

 

[Wolfie]

Where does your claim come from? I cannot find a source for it. ETIAS seems to be a pre-clearance just as ESTA and will certainly speed up border checks, but hard to imagine that ETIAS holders will simply walk through the border without any check at all.

It won't. A border guard's decision will still be final.

ETIAS: Europe's New Travel Authorisation for Visa-Exempt Nationals

ETIAS is Europe's new travel authorisation for visa-free visitors, launching late 2026. Learn about the €20 fee, 3-year validity, 30 countries covered, and how to prepare.

www.schengenvisainfo.com

 

[Chester1]

Where does your claim come from? I cannot find a source for it. ETIAS seems to be a pre-clearance just as ESTA and will certainly speed up border checks, but hard to imagine that ETIAS holders will simply walk through the border without any check at all.

It won't. A border guard's decision will still be final.

ETIAS: Europe's New Travel Authorisation for Visa-Exempt Nationals

ETIAS is Europe's new travel authorisation for visa-free visitors, launching late 2026. Learn about the €20 fee, 3-year validity, 30 countries covered, and how to prepare.

www.schengenvisainfo.com

I said "most of the checks" not all! The border officials will have the general background information they need on a person, know they have been run through watchlists etc and won't need to stamp the passport. I would expect they will still ask a couple of questions about their current journey. The EU has been explicit that a benefit of the system is that it will speed up entry process for arrivals.

If you consider the make up of non Brits and non EU citizens that use Eurostar and flights from UK to EU then having 62 nationalities requiring fewer checks at the border will speed up the process significantly for all non EU Citizens. Your typical American tourist etc, will be quicker to process too. ETIAS timing with brexit is coincidental but it will deal with many of the issues it raises at the border.

 

[Wolfie]

I said "most of the checks" not all! The border officials will have the general background information they need on a person, know they have been run through watchlists etc and won't need to stamp the passport. I would expect they will still ask a couple of questions about their current journey. The EU has been explicit that a benefit of the system is that it will speed up entry process for arrivals.

If you consider the make up of non Brits and non EU citizens that use Eurostar and flights from UK to EU then having 62 nationalities requiring fewer checks at the border will speed up the process significantly for all non EU Citizens. Your typical American tourist etc, will be quicker to process too. ETIAS timing with brexit is coincidental but it will deal with many of the issues it raises at the border.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[MattRat]

I suspect because Eurostar weren't enthusiastic enough?

Either that or they know it will eventually fall.....

 

[btrs]

It is slow, but no reversal required. It’s half an hour by TGV from Marne La Vallée to Massy TGV. That would make a London - Bordeaux service (assuming a stop at Marne La Vallée for Disney) about 4h45 if the paths aligned perfectly.

That is the problem, you always have to run on RER C tracks. And if the TGV service has caught delay, you are sandwiched between 2 stopping services and mostly trundling at 60 to 80 km/h..
LGV Interconnexion Sud (or at least a separate new line, viz. Marseille-Nice that won't be LGV but will be a new line) should therefore be a major priority, more so than the other branch of the LGV Rhin-Rhône or even the Bordeaux-Toulouse lines..

 

[Austriantrain]

That is the problem, you always have to run on RER C tracks. And if the TGV service has caught delay, you are sandwiched between 2 stopping services and mostly trundling at 60 to 80 km/h..
LGV Interconnexion Sud (or at least a separate new line, viz. Marseille-Nice that won't be LGV but will be a new line) should therefore be a major priority, more so than the other branch of the LGV Rhin-Rhône or even the Bordeaux-Toulouse lines..

I would agree with you if there was a consistent timetable proposal. As it is, TGV Interconnection services are being reduced, not expanded (and obviously, a possible E* London - Bordeaux cannot be a factor in infrastructure decisions).

Increasing RER service and freight paths might just be enough to justify an interconnection sud, but in general, not much sense in building new lines which then are not much used by the main passenger operator (as can be seen with the LGV Rhin-Rhone you mentioned, where Strasbourg- Lyon services have been getting worse, not better, since itsopening).

However, since this is France - after Spain the prime example of „let’s build for the sake of it“ - anything can happen, obviously. The plans for Marseille - Nice - also mentioned by you - seem to be a rare example of common sense.