London zone 2-6 travelcard withdrawn

[philjo]

On BBC news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11598617

London Tube and bus day travelcards rise by up to 74%
Commuters wait on a platform for an undergound train The Zones 2-6 Travelcard is being withdrawn by TfL

Day travelcard users on London's Underground and buses face price hikes of up to 74% from 2011.

The Zone 2-6 Travelcard will be withdrawn meaning passengers wishing to continue using travelcards will have to buy a Zone 1-6 version instead.

This would mean a peak hours ticket rise from £8.60 to £15.

Tube bosses said they were simplifying fares, but watchdog London TravelWatch said outer London residents and tourists would be worst affected.

"We are very concerned that these inflation-busting fares will price people off public transport," said Jo deBank from London TravelWatch.

"Everyone will be hit, but it appears that infrequent users, those in outer London and visitors and tourists will be hit particularly hard."

Valerie Shawcross, Labour's London Assembly transport spokeswoman called the fares "a kick in the teeth" for Londoners.

"This was slipped out quietly but Londoners won't fail to notice this huge increases when they are buying their tickets in January," she added.
Oyster 'cheaper'

Transport for London (TfL) said Zone 2-6 travelcards were used by fewer than 6,000 passengers a day, including just 300 people during peak times.

It said passengers should use its Oyster pay-as-you-go system instead.

"It is far cheaper to use Oyster pay as you go, with outside zone one fares ranging from £1.30 to £2.50," a TfL spokeswoman said.

"We would advise passengers travelling outside Zone 1 infrequently to use Oyster pay-as-you-go or if travelling frequently to check out our range of weekly and monthly season tickets."

On Wednesday, London Mayor Boris Johnson said he would not have to raise Tube fares more than his already stated 2% above inflation and free travel for under-18s would remain in place.

TfL used July's Retail Price Index (RPI) of 4.8% when reviewing fares, which would mean a 6.8% average rise in fares from 2011.

 

[MikeWh]

Transport for London (TfL) said Zone 2-6 travelcards were used by fewer than 6,000 passengers a day, including just 300 people during peak times.

It said passengers should use its Oyster pay-as-you-go system instead.

"It is far cheaper to use Oyster pay as you go, with outside zone one fares ranging from £1.30 to £2.50," a TfL spokeswoman said.

Does the 6,000 a day include all the Oyster cards which cap at the 2-6 rate?
No, Oyster isn't far cheaper if you end up capping - the cap is the same.

So, some headlines they don't want you to see:
Outer London off-peak travelcard to rise 57%
Child off-peak travelcard to rise 50%
Families priced off public transport in the capital?

 

[TEW]

Using a percentage for the child fare rise makes it look much worse than it is. The price is only going up a pound to a still very reasonable £3.

 

[bb21]

Is there anything London Travelwatch can do?

This is absolutely scandalous. Does it mean that if I make, for example, six trips in Zone 6 it would be more expensive than if I made the same number of journeys in Zone 1? Where's the logic in that?

 

[MikeWh]

Is there anything London Travelwatch can do?

This is absolutely scandalous. Does it mean that if I make, for example, six trips in Zone 6 it would be more expensive than if I made the same number of journeys in Zone 1? Where's the logic in that?

No, it would cost the same. Currently it would be less in zone 6. The off-peak day travelcards are £5.10 (2-6) and £7.50 (1-6) at the moment. They will both rise to £8.00 in January. The all day versions are worse where £9.00 and £14.80 both become £15.00.

 

[TEW]

If you used an Oyster card 6 journeys in Zone 6 would be less than 6 journeys in Zone 1.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Does the 6,000 a day include all the Oyster cards which cap at the 2-6 rate?
No, Oyster isn't far cheaper if you end up capping - the cap is the same.

When I first read that I thought you meant the cap is the same as before. But now re-reading, I think it means that the cap for 2-6 will now be the same as for 1-6 - is that correct? In which case the statement

"It is far cheaper to use Oyster pay as you go, with outside zone one fares ranging from £1.30 to £2.50," a TfL spokeswoman said.

is really just a lie to fob the media off? As for people whose journey patterns meant a 2-6 travelcard is currently the best value, it won't be far cheaper, but at least as expensive and possibly/probably cost up to the new price for a 1-6 travelcard (£8)? I guess it doesn't say what Oyster pay-as-you-go is far cheaper than. How underhanded.

 

[londonbridge]

If tfl need to raise some cash why don't they start charging kids for bus travel outside of school hours? They can keep it on for journeys to and from school by all means,but there's no justification for kids to be riding around on the buses for free in the evenings and/or weekends.

 

[philjo]

found this document

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/MD698%20January%202011%20fares%20revision%20%28signed%29%20PDF.pdf

A couple of interesting points:

In the evening off-peak fares will apply from Janaury 2011 for journeys that start in zone 2 and beyond and end in Zone 1

i.e. tube journeys IN TO central London during the evening peak hour will be cheaper on PAYG than at present. (e.g. Amersham-Zone 1 drops from £6 to £3.50 in the evening peak)

It is proposed that from 2 January 2011 the railcard oyster offer will be extended to include a third off oyster PAYG off-peak single fares on the tube and DLR. This will make the oyster railcard offer consistent across all rail services in London.

 

[MikeWh]

When I first read that I thought you meant the cap is the same as before. But now re-reading, I think it means that the cap for 2-6 will now be the same as for 1-6 - is that correct? In which case the statement

is really just a lie to fob the media off? As for people whose journey patterns meant a 2-6 travelcard is currently the best value, it won't be far cheaper, but at least as expensive and possibly/probably cost up to the new price for a 1-6 travelcard (£8)? I guess it doesn't say what Oyster pay-as-you-go is far cheaper than. How underhanded.

Yes, that's correct. For single journeys Oyster PAYG is cheaper than using cash. Once you make enough journeys to cap at the travelcard rate then there is no difference.

If tfl need to raise some cash why don't they start charging kids for bus travel outside of school hours? They can keep it on for journeys to and from school by all means,but there's no justification for kids to be riding around on the buses for free in the evenings and/or weekends.

As a parent I would object to this idea, particularly at weekends. If I had to pay for all my kids when we go to the cinema (for example) then it would be cheaper to polute the environment and use my car.

found this document

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/MD698%20January%202011%20fares%20revision%20%28signed%29%20PDF.pdf

A couple of interesting points:


i.e. tube journeys IN TO central London during the evening peak hour will be cheaper on PAYG than at present. (e.g. Amersham-Zone 1 drops from £6 to £3.50 in the evening peak)

Yes, I've found that too. There are some good aspects. I'm especially pleased to see that the TOCs have applied the same 65p maximum off-peak kids fare as TfL have had previously. Raising the kids off-peak cap by 30% is tough, but still cheaper than a kids travelcard. It would be good if all journeys towards London in the evening were charged at off-peak rates, although I appreciate that it's harder to define that when some journeys might involve some peak flow travel (eg Crayford Z6 to Norwood Junction Z4). It would also be good if NR journeys into Z1 could be off-peak too, but the current structure means that it would then be cheaper in the evening peak to go Z6-Z1 than Z6-Z2.

I've fired off a FOI request to find out how many PAYG cards cap at the 2-6 rate each day. If it comes back significantly over the 3,000 figure quoted then TfL are definitely being economical with the truth.

 

[bb21]

No, it would cost the same. Currently it would be less in zone 6. The off-peak day travelcards are £5.10 (2-6) and £7.50 (1-6) at the moment. They will both rise to £8.00 in January. The all day versions are worse where £9.00 and £14.80 both become £15.00.

Is there a website where we can check the proposed new fare structure?

 

[MikeWh]

Is there a website where we can check the proposed new fare structure?

found this document

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/MD698%20January%202011%20fares%20revision%20%28signed%29%20PDF.pdf

The appendices at the end of the report detail everything quite well.

 

[tripleseis]

If the daily cap for zone 2-6 is the same as zones 1-6, then there's absolutely no point using the LO to avoid zone 1.

 

[MikeWh]

If the daily cap for zone 2-6 is the same as zones 1-6, then there's absolutely no point using the LO to avoid zone 1.

It depends how many journeys you are going to make. Single journey prices will still be considerably cheaper if you avoid zone 1. You need to make at least three train journeys (or two and a couple of bus/tram rides) to make a travelcard worthwhile.

 

[bb21]

The appendices at the end of the report detail everything quite well.

Thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, it would cost the same. Currently it would be less in zone 6. The off-peak day travelcards are £5.10 (2-6) and £7.50 (1-6) at the moment. They will both rise to £8.00 in January. The all day versions are worse where £9.00 and £14.80 both become £15.00.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Wouldn't six Zone 6 journeys be capped at the Zone 1-6 rate and six journeys in Zone 1 be capped at the Zone 1-2 rate?

This means that it is more expensive to make six journeys in Zone 6 than in Zone 1?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just checked. Six journeys in Zone 6 is £7.80, not quite at the cap for Zone 1-6, which is £8 (off-peak, same below). Six Zone 1 journeys are capped at £6.60, but you get my point.

 

[MikeWh]

Ahhh yes, I see what you mean now. As I live in zone 6 the zone 1-2 travelcard is of little use to me.

 

[londonbridge]

As a parent I would object to this idea, particularly at weekends. If I had to pay for all my kids when we go to the cinema (for example) then it would be cheaper to polute the environment and use my car.

That is your right to object,however I would point out that the original reason given for free bus travel for kids was to reduce the amount of school run traffic and get children into the habit of using public transport. There is no school run traffic in the evenings and weekends,and having said they wanted to encourage kids to use the bus,tfl then did an about turn and started a campaign to get kids to walk to school because they were hopping on the bus evverywhere and not getting any exercise,leading to increased problems with childhood obesity.

I would also ask why todays kids are considered worthy of free travel when no-one gave you,me and other members of this board free travel when WE were at school.

 

[jon0844]

Why can't you pay to take your kids to the cinema instead of me and other tax payers? Do they pay to the see the movie or is that subsidised by us as well?

Surely that was never the idea of free travel for kids!

 

[RJ]

I would also ask why todays kids are considered worthy of free travel when no-one gave you,me and other members of this board free travel when WE were at school.

Times change. I wouldn't be moaning about not having to pay (directly) for my children's travel if I was a parent. After all, kids don't pay out of their own pocket do they?

I had free bus travel from when I was 14, I probably had the most validated Oyster Card in the whole of London as I used it so much on a daily basis. In the end I just used it to get child rate season Travelcards as I needed it to commute to work in the City. Now it's pretty useless as all my commuting is done by train then on foot which is great as my travel costs represent idyllic value for money.

As for the Oyster/Travelcard situation, I'd welcome the railcard discount on TfL services.

 

[jon0844]

Of course nobody is going to moan, but there is the school of thought that says you have to pay your own way.

Free travel for kids, paid for by everyone, seems a bit unfair and unnecessary. Fine for getting to/from school (in fact, for this, it's a bloody excellent idea) but now being abused - although I'm sure your opinion varies if it happens to save you money!!

I've given my opinion, and don't expect others to change theirs.

 

[MikeWh]

Why can't you pay to take your kids to the cinema instead of me and other tax payers? Do they pay to the see the movie or is that subsidised by us as well?

Surely that was never the idea of free travel for kids!

I must confess that I'm not fully aware of the reason(s) behind free travel for kids. My recollection is that it was largely environmental, recognising that bus travel, where more than one person would occupy the same car, was more expensive than using the car. It was therefore aimed at making bus travel more affordable for families. Whether it was primrarily aimed at the school run or not I can't remember, but obviously the school run is when the problem is at it's worst.

As for the health implications, I fully agree it's better to walk than use the bus or car. My younger two walk with me as much as we can. However, if school is too far to walk then I'd prefer multiple families use the same bus rather than multiple cars clogging up the roads and polluting the atmosphere.

I must now confess to being slightly annoyed at the implication (intended or not) that I am somehow a scrounger. I can't believe that the prices we usually pay for the cinema can be subsidised in any way and yes, I do pay for us to see the films. For getting there I use the cheapest method available. The fact that that happens to be environmentally friendly as well is a bonus. After paying the sky high prices at the cinema, I'm afraid cost is the prime driver of choice for transport so if the car was cheaper that is what I'd use.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not saying you're a scrounger. You are merely taking advantage of something that is there. I am not suggesting you try and insist on paying when it's free!

However, I don't think that free travel should be for anything more than getting to/from school. That would effectively rule out weekends, unless there was a specific school event on - and the school could then issue some sort of paperwork to prove that to be the case.

Are you saying you wouldn't use the bus if you had to pay for the children? Nobody is saying not to use a bus or that a bus isn't a better option than driving (nor am I going to disagree that walking is good, but it's not practical for long walks - or when the weather is bad, or you're carrying lots of things etc).

The environment isn't an issue at all here. It's about whether the kids go free at all times. If you're saying it's about the environment, then the car shouldn't be an option even if it was cheaper.

 

[JamTin]

Very unhappy with this. For travelcard "simplification" read "removal of choice".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I take it that the abolition of paper ticketing through to all the Underground destinations ( apart from the remaining Travelcards ) has also been noticed...?

 

[yorkie]

Whoever asked the question that received the following response didn't ask the right question.

Transport for London (TfL) said Zone 2-6 travelcards were used by fewer than 6,000 passengers a day, including just 300 people during peak times.

It said passengers should use its Oyster pay-as-you-go system instead.

"It is far cheaper to use Oyster pay as you go, with outside zone one fares ranging from £1.30 to £2.50," a TfL spokeswoman said.

As we now hear the Z2-6 Oyster PAYG cap has been removed, we need to ask them about that. How many people were capped at that rate daily? It is that number, PLUS the 6,000 paper Travelcard holders who are affected.

The bit about Oyster PAYG being cheaper is gibberish, if the cap has been removed, then Oyster PAYG will be more expensive for someone making the sort of journeys that these tickets exist for (ie, several journeys in Z2-6).

 

[MikeWh]

I've asked the question as a FOI request. Not sure how long I'll have to wait.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I saw that, good move But perhaps we need to get the media to ask now, while it's still a hot topic. I suspect TfL will delay releasing the information or even make some excuse and claim they do not know the information (could they get away with that? I do not know)

 

[RJ]

I suspect something funny is going on with capping at the moment as my standard blue cards don't go about a certain amount which is less than what the Travelcard should be (not that I'm complaining).

 

[londonbridge]

As we now hear the Z2-6 Oyster PAYG cap has been removed, we need to ask them about that. How many people were capped at that rate daily? It is that number, PLUS the 6,000 paper Travelcard holders who are affected.

The bit about Oyster PAYG being cheaper is gibberish, if the cap has been removed, then Oyster PAYG will be more expensive for someone making the sort of journeys that these tickets exist for (ie, several journeys in Z2-6).

If I go to a gig at Shepherds Bush Empire/Bush Hall,or Hammersmith Apllo,using PAYG for a bus into/from Croydon,from East Croydon direct to Shepherds Bush for the former,or East Croydon-West Brompton-Earls Court-Hammersmith for the latter I get capped at £5.10 for avoiding zone 1,so under these proposals,using the current rates I'd be capped at £7.50 instead? Ridiculous.

 

[Deerfold]

It should probably be noted that Z2-6 tickets will still exist but only as 7-day or longer seasons.

That doesn't help people who only travel enough to hit the cap occasionally though.