Cross Country to operate Leeds-Glasgow via Settle services using HSTs?

[skyhigh]

Surprised Northerns never considered doing something like this honestly, the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle seems prime for them to exploit as more of a 'premium' line with better trains and amenities, maybe even a first class and the works. Obviously Northerns would need to stop at all the stations so would need suitable trains, but it's a real untapped market in my opinion.

So you'd suggest it's worthwhile financially finding or refurbishing a fleet of trains with different facilities and first class to work one line, with all the diagramming issues that causes?

 

[JonathanH]

it's a real untapped market in my opinion

How many times a year do you personally expect to use the service you propose?

 

[HarryL]

So you'd suggest it's worthwhile financially finding or refurbishing a fleet of trains with different facilities and first class to work one line, with all the diagramming issues that causes?

It doesn't necessarily need to be first class as in having meals provided or anything, just better seats, a quiet space and plug sockets for charging laptops. I see the point about finding a fleet to work one line and I'm definitely not qualified in this but surely that wouldn't be the end of the world, they already have trains that only ever run on two lines as it is now. Also, if this GBR thing gets pulled off successfully, with unified branding and everything, the trains could very easily be in a shared pool with say TPE.

How many times a year do you personally expect to use the service you propose?

Prior to the pandemic, I utilised the line to get to work in Leeds almost daily, admittedly as more of a commuter train in a morning. It was always packed full and without fail there's always a number of people sat away on laptops, I feel like if the option was there for them to have a more quiet, non packed and more comfortable carriage then many people would take that option even if it costs a bit more.

Maybe first class is the wrong framing, I guess I'm imagining something more akin to Avanti's new Standard Premium type of deal.

 

[Neptune]

Prior to the pandemic, I utilised the line to get to work in Leeds almost daily, admittedly as more of a commuter train in a morning. It was always packed full and without fail there's always a number of people sat away on laptops, I feel like if the option was there for them to have a more quiet, non packed and more comfortable carriage then many people would take that option even if it costs a bit more.

Maybe first class is the wrong framing, I guess I'm imagining something more akin to Avanti's new Standard Premium type of deal.

So to combat overcrowding and allowing a few people to use their laptops (were they working or playing Football Manager BTW?) you suggest making a micro fleet (and all the issues that entails with a fleet working an irregular pattern service) with less seats and less standing room as these laptoppers (who also manage to do likewise on other routes at peak times) have a quiet space. The units that work the line have/or will soon have USB sockets fitted plus WiFi and they have seat back tables with some fixed tables.

 

[HarryL]

So to combat overcrowding and allowing a few people to use their laptops (were they working or playing Football Manager BTW?) you suggest making a micro fleet (and all the issues that entails with a fleet working an irregular pattern service) with less seats and less standing room as these laptoppers (who also manage to do likewise on other routes at peak times) have a quiet space. The units that work the line have/or will soon have USB sockets fitted plus WiFi and they have seat back tables with some fixed tables.

I don't simply suggest it for the few people using laptops, I feel like the line as it stands is already a prominent one for Northern and is already a bit of a touristy line in of itself, with a bit of marketing and promotion it I do believe it could sustain a more premium quality service. With GBR around the corner the issue of it having to be a micro fleet is less prominent, with common branding and such it could use an existing fleet that would be able to be shared across operators quite easily.

 

[Neptune]

I don't simply suggest it for the few people using laptops, I feel like the line as it stands is already a prominent one for Northern and is already a bit of a touristy line in of itself, with a bit of marketing and promotion it I do believe it could sustain a more premium quality service. With GBR around the corner the issue of it having to be a micro fleet is less prominent, with common branding and such it could use an existing fleet that would be able to be shared across operators quite easily.

It is probably the most promoted line on the Northern network. Northern’s fleet requires flexibility and losing just a few units because they are tied to a specific route means that it can affect servicues elsewhere when that flexibility is reduced. Northern’s 158’s are used all over and the S&C is one of the few routes that uses a mix of both NL & HT units which is great for flexibility. To lose that flexibility could mean that services are affected as far afield as Wigan & Chathill.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you ride the Settle-Carlisle during daylight hours and spend all journey with your face in your laptop instead of enjoying the scenery, then quite frankly you don't deserve comfortable seats!

 

[daodao]

Would it not be preferable to operate an express Leeds-Glasgow service via Carnforth, reversing just south of there, and calling at Oxenholme and Penrith? Hitachi 800/802/805/810 bimodes could be used, as most of the route is electrified. IC125 trains are surely now only fit for the scrapyard. Three trains per day would probably suffice, leaving both termini at approximately 0800 (except Sundays), 1300 and 1800, with a journey time of about 4 hours.

 

[37424]

Desperate attempt to justify keeping HSTs alert...

There have long been complaints especially on this forum about both the quality of rolling stock and adequate capacity to cater for customers on one of the UK most scenic routes, and this would address that and of course we are already seeing it in some from with with the Staycation Express HST. The XC HST's are potentially suited to this being a small fleet about the right size, and being PRM compliant with Power doors etc. It would allow Northern to concentrate on the local services and possibly releasing DMU's for use elsewhere, along with an improved service between Glasgow and Yorkshire.

I doubt the Dft have much interest in desperate attempt to keep HST's running for the sake of it but must clearly see a demand for this if were to go ahead. Of course the other alternative might be a small fleet of Meridians.

 

[Ianno87]

Would it not be preferable to operate an express Leeds-Glasgow service via Carnforth, reversing just south of there, and calling at Oxenholme and Penrith? Hitachi 800/802/805/810 bimodes could be used, as most of the route is electrified. IC125 trains are surely now only fit for the scrapyard. Three trains per day would probably suffice, leaving both termini at approximately 0800 (except Sundays), 1300 and 1800, with a journey time of about 4 hours.

Though by the Time that has been done, a Leeds-Hebden Bridge-Preston-WCML-Glasgow service would be just as fast and pick up considerably more demand along the way.

 

[CBlue]

There have long been complaints especially on this forum about both the quality of rolling stock and adequate capacity to cater for customers on one of the UK most scenic routes, and this would address that and of course we are already seeing it in some from with with the Staycation Express HST. The XC HST's are potentially suited to this being a small fleet about the right size, and being PRM compliant with Power doors etc. It would allow Northern to concentrate on the local services and possibly releasing DMU's for use elsewhere, along with an improved service between Glasgow and Yorkshire.

I doubt the Dft have much interest in desperate attempt to keep HST's running for the sake of it but must clearly see a demand for this if were to go ahead. Of course the other alternative might be a small fleet of Meridians.

Hst's aren't the be all and end all for this, though - Mk3's are viewed through rose tinted lenses by many on this forum in terms of ride quality!

Who is this hypothetical service aimed at?
If it's regular passengers they won't care about an HST or not, in fact they'd probably see it as another "dirty old train" much as some viewed them on the East Coast (and as plenty thought of the MK3 hauled stock on the Great Eastern) - far better to operate it with something newer that's still suitable for the journey times

If it's aimed squarely at enthusiasts - we're talking about a small group often with long pockets and short arms. It wouldn't pay its way, especially if there's a requirement for additional cleaning costs.....

 

[HamworthyGoods]

With HSTs and their well known huge step up into a narrow vestibule this would be a massively retrograde step for any mobility impaired or passengers with pushchairs.

Poorer acceleration compared with a modern DMU isn’t going to do much for trains stopping at the frequent stations at the Carlisle end of the route either.

 

[30907]

With HSTs and their well known huge step up into a narrow vestibule this would be a massively retrograde step for any mobility impaired or passengers with pushchairs.

Poorer acceleration compared with a modern DMU isn’t going to do much for trains stopping at the frequent stations at the Carlisle end of the route either.

But AIUI the idea is to run fast trains, not have HSTs take over the stoppers.

 

[HSTEd]

If you ride the Settle-Carlisle during daylight hours and spend all journey with your face in your laptop instead of enjoying the scenery, then quite frankly you don't deserve comfortable seats!

I always found it rather bleak for my taste.

I do wonder what it would have looked like in prehistoric times (obviously excepting the presence of the railway itself!)

 

[Railwaysceptic]

On that subject, why is it that ‘slim chance’ and ‘fat chance’ mean the same thing?

Because in that context, "fat chance" is used ironically/sarcastically while "slim chance" isn't.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I always found it rather bleak for my taste.

I do wonder what it would have looked like in prehistoric times (obviously excepting the presence of the railway itself!)

The bleakness is part of the appeal for me... if the weather is stormy it makes the rugged scenery all the more dramatic. No accounting for taste I suppose!

"Prehistoric times" is quite a big window... sometimes it would have been frozen tundra, other times a sub-tropical rainforest depending on where the climate was. The landscape would have been somewhat changeable too.

The railway itself had a slow start... first opened in 17,000 BCE, it didn't really take off until the development of the wheel. Prior to that, cave-passengers were expected to help push the vehicles along on rudimentary skis. The "long drag" was then known as "the really long shove".

 

[Iskra]

There have long been complaints especially on this forum about both the quality of rolling stock and adequate capacity to cater for customers on one of the UK most scenic routes, and this would address that and of course we are already seeing it in some from with with the Staycation Express HST. The XC HST's are potentially suited to this being a small fleet about the right size, and being PRM compliant with Power doors etc. It would allow Northern to concentrate on the local services and possibly releasing DMU's for use elsewhere, along with an improved service between Glasgow and Yorkshire.

I doubt the Dft have much interest in desperate attempt to keep HST's running for the sake of it but must clearly see a demand for this if were to go ahead. Of course the other alternative might be a small fleet of Meridians.

It would also help on the Aire Valley where commuters swamp the 2-car DMU's as they are the fastest trains, rather than use the plentiful 4-car EMU's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==

The bleakness is part of the appeal for me... if the weather is stormy it makes the rugged scenery all the more dramatic. No accounting for taste I suppose!

"Prehistoric times" is quite a big window... sometimes it would have been frozen tundra, other times a sub-tropical rainforest depending on where the climate was. The landscape would have been somewhat changeable too.

The railway itself had a slow start... first opened in 17,000 BCE, it didn't really take off until the development of the wheel. Prior to that, cave-passengers were expected to help push the vehicles along on rudimentary skis. The "long drag" was then known as "the really long shove".

I agree, the poor weather adds atmosphere to the bleakness.

 

[Ianno87]

It would also help on the Aire Valley where commuters swamp the 2-car DMU's as they are the fastest trains, rather than use the plentiful 4-car EMU's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==

Carting multiple carriages all the way to Carlisle seems excessive to solve a problem south of Skipton.

 

[Iskra]

Carting multiple carriages all the way to Carlisle seems excessive to solve a problem south of Skipton.

But if it's travelling anyway...

 

[Bald Rick]

I really can’t see this happening.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is it likely to happen or have XC just asked a speculative question?

XC have been looking for a way to serve Leeds twice an hour for ages. I thought the answer was always no paths- in Sheffield or in Leeds?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it likely to happen or have XC just asked a speculative question?

I can’t imagine that Cross Country would have asked to do this. They’re sensible people!

 

[ABB125]

Here's a picture of the first few paragraphs of the Modern Railways article which started the thread:

Summary: Cross Country and the DfT are "starting to look at" a possible scheme for Leeds-Glasgow via Settle services. These could start in Dec 23, and would be operated by XC. Apparently XC is "keen" to improve services for customers travelling between Leeds and Glasgow. Services "could" be operated by XC's HST fleet, if they are made spare by the transfer of voyagers from Avanti to XC.

 

[py_megapixel]

If all 20 221s are being cascaded to replace 5 HSTs, that still leaves quite a bit of scope for doubling up the busiest of other services

 

[irish_rail]

Here's a picture of the first few paragraphs of the Modern Railways article which started the thread:
View attachment 96824
Summary: Cross Country and the DfT are "starting to look at" a possible scheme for Leeds-Glasgow via Settle services. These could start in Dec 23, and would be operated by XC. Apparently XC is "keen" to improve services for customers travelling between Leeds and Glasgow. Services "could" be operated by XC's HST fleet, if they are made spare by the transfer of voyagers from Avanti to XC.

Why on earth are XC so concerned about the small Leeds to Glasgow Market?! They seem little concerned about the unbelievably slow trains from the south west to Birmingham. 3 and a half hours is poor. XC, please concentrate on improving your CORE routes and offerings without looking at daft proposals that only really benefit northern based enthusiasts.
Rant over

 

[Ianno87]

Why on earth are XC so concerned about the small Leeds to Glasgow Market?! They seem little concerned about the unbelievably slow trains from the south west to Birmingham. 3 and a half hours is poor. XC, please concentrate on improving your CORE routes and offerings without looking at daft proposals that only really benefit northern based enthusiasts.
Rant over

1) If they get 20 x Class 221s that means 10 sets (doubled up) replace 5 HST sets, and then 10 sets left over to strengthen other services, which is pretty substantial (less a couple of maintenence spares)

2) It's not immediately obvious how Birmingham-Plymouth journey time ould be significantly improved on current infrastructure, without sacrificing stops.

 

[IanXC]

If there is something in this then it probably warrants a wider recast of services. If there is to be a standard pattern Leeds to Glasgow via Settle service:

- has anyone done the numbers on how frequent it could be with the 5 XC HST sets? Assuming somewhere between 3 and 4 sets being required each day I would suspect?
- there is probably a good argument that only Settle, Appleby and perhaps Kirkby Stephen justify a call between Skipton and Carlisle.
- if Settle, in particular, has this express services to Leeds, is there a good reason why the 'all shacks' on the Skipton - Carlisle portion need go to Leeds at all?
- answering my previous point, the issue is around Gargrave, Long Preston and Hellifield which are(/were?) building into having a commuter market to Leeds
- perhaps (subject to various numbers above) a bi-hourly Leeds to Glasgow, with a stopper following from Skipton to Carlisle, and in the opposite hour a bi-hourly Leeds to Lancaster operated by some kind of bimode (dare I say 769 esk). Giving Settle an uplift to standard 2 hourly to Leeds, the S&C shacks and the Little North Western upgrade to standard 2 hourly, and maintaining Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston's links to Leeds.

I'm sure there will be something I have overlooked but I can perhaps start to see how these options all come together to form a coherent service pattern.

 

[class26]

Why on earth are XC so concerned about the small Leeds to Glasgow Market?! They seem little concerned about the unbelievably slow trains from the south west to Birmingham. 3 and a half hours is poor. XC, please concentrate on improving your CORE routes and offerings without looking at daft proposals that only really benefit northern based enthusiasts.
Rant over

I understood this came from the DFT . not X country.

 

[30907]

If there is something in this then it probably warrants a wider recast of services. If there is to be a standard pattern Leeds to Glasgow via Settle service:

- has anyone done the numbers on how frequent it could be with the 5 XC HST sets? Assuming somewhere between 3 and 4 sets being required each day I would suspect?

You would need 4 sets intensively used to do a 2-hourly service - that would be courageous timetabling (aka Virgin XC) and I wouldn't try.
Given the likely market, I would go for 2 sets = 3tpd, maybe a third set doing another out-and-back from Leeds and peak extras on behalf of Northern (like the GC 180 from Hebden Br).
Say 0849, (1049,) 1249, 1719/49 ex Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

This feels like another one of those Government announcements to please their "traditional" kind of voters - in the way that they keep re-announcing the reversal of Beeching (when all they mean is sticking a couple of stations on an existing freight branch in Northumberland) - a combination of everyone's "favourite" tourist line plus 1970s trains - throw in the "Union" angle of improving cross border links and you've got a heady mix of crowd pleasing nostalgia for the Shire Tories - it's Sunday evening television in rail form

If you were serious about improving links between Leeds and Glasgow (why no Nottingham???), you could make it hourly pretty easily, all it'd take would be one extra Voyager, to extend the existing (Plymouth) Leeds - Edinburgh terminators through to Central - just one train required (which would also double the Newcastle - Glasgow frequency etc)

But then that'd probably get a reaction about how it's not possible because there are no spare paths from Carstairs into Glasgow (which is the problem when someone suggests something relatively modest - people point out the bottlenecks etc - yet when you suggest something left field like running 125mph trains up the 75mph S&C almost fifty years after they were built, people are happy to overlook practicalities)

I could see some logic in a Leeds - Bradford - Burnley - Blackburn - Preston - WCML - Glasgow service (if you insist on some new route through Carlisle), that ticks a few boxes in terms of bringing long distance high speed services to some places that are relatively neglected by the railway, but where's the fun in that? This is all about nostalgia, not trying to solve actual problems.