Great British Railways: Thoughts, predictions, speculation

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is Network Rail being dissolved?

In a way, yes.
But it will form a major pillar of GBR and may well staff much of the new organisation.
I think the operational Regions/Routes will remain. They were heading to being more devolved from the centre than previously.
The White Paper makes much of GBR being a totally new organisation, not just the same functions in a different place.
It also says Network Rail must change too, though it acknowledges the start made by Andrew Haines.
I was also surprised to see that Peter Hendy and Andrew Haines were not appointed to the permanent jobs heading GBR.
They have key interim roles (along with their NR day jobs) while the permanent staff are advertised and recruited, which may be from the outside world.
They might want a younger person to Chair it, for instance (Peter is 68).

 

[Purple Orange]

I reckon no. Indeed, I reckon there will be more of them.

Merseyrail of course was born under BR and has always been its own thing since day one in 1978.

Probably for the speculation thread, but I’d bet the West Midlands (just like Greater Manchester) will want to be implementing their version of Merseyrail. Perhaps GBR is a platform to help make this happen, which of course has ramifications for medium/long distance services.

 

[Fidelis]

Probably for the speculation thread, but I’d bet the West Midlands (just like Greater Manchester) will want to be implementing their version of Merseyrail. Perhaps GBR is a platform to help make this happen, which of course has ramifications for medium/long distance services.

West Midlands already has its own setup since 2017 in the devolved West Midlands Rail Executive who have management oversight of WM Railway franchise with a WM livery (also used on the trams) which it was anticipated that this livery would remain in place regardless of who took over the franchise. If the proposed region is based on the current Network rail Central Route then, other than the North Cotswold and Marches Lines, this will align with the WMRE area.

 

[Purple Orange]

West Midlands already has its own setup since 2017 in the devolved West Midlands Rail Executive who have management oversight of WM Railway franchise with a WM livery (also used on the trams) which it was anticipated that this livery would remain in place regardless of who took over the franchise. If the proposed region is based on the current Network rail Central Route then, other than the North Cotswold and Marches Lines, this will align with the WMRE area.

That’s not the same as a merseyrail type network though.

 

[Harvey B]

But OLR has private firm involvement - it is basically run by a partnership of ARUP, Ernst & Young and SNC-Lavalin on behalf of DfT.

Yes the DfT controls the business but it still has private firms actively involved.

What do the Private firms do with the DfT?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What do the Private firms do with the DfT?

They run the Operator of Last Resort for the DfT, under their direction.

Directly Operated Railways which was nationalised was wound up in late 2015 and replaced by OLR.

 

[Harvey B]

They run the Operator of Last Resort for the DfT, under their direction.

Directly Operated Railways which was nationalised was wound up in late 2015 and replaced by OLR.

So do they co-run it with the DfT?

 

[Mikey C]

I would put punctuality, safety, cleanliness, customer service, prices and route/rolling stock investment all as a higher priority than whether the actual services are private or public. Does anyone in London really care that TfL doesn't run buses themselves?

Very little. Indeed I don't recall any Mayoral candidate suggesting it as a policy or aspiration, certainly none of the main ones.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So do they co-run it with the DfT?

Pretty much yes.

 

[mspljd1990]

From Wiki:

GBR will be made up of five regional divisions, organised in line with Network Rail's Putting Passengers First programme. Budgets and delivery will be held at the local level as well as at the national level. Regional divisions will manage concession contracts, stations, infrastructure, manage local and regional budgets, integrate track and train and integrate rail with local transport services.[1]

The five regions are:[8]

• Scotland
• North West & Central
• Eastern (including the East Coast mainline)
• Wales & Western
• Southern (including HS1)

Will East Midlands fall under NW & Central or East Coast?

 

[vicktrick]

Assuming people who clean the trains and stations will still be working for private companies

 

[The Planner]

From Wiki:

Will East Midlands fall under NW & Central or East Coast?

Its Eastern region now.

 

[uww11x]

Cuts coming soon. Sad to see

 

[JonathanH]

Assuming people who clean the trains and stations will still be working for private companies

Yes. That seems pretty certain. Almost every business subcontracts cleaning to relevant companies.

 

[mspljd1990]

Its Eastern region now.

Interesting. So essentially we'll see a big merger between LNER, EMR, and half of Northern?

 

[43096]

In a way, yes.
But it will form a major pillar of GBR and may well staff much of the new organisation.
I think the operational Regions/Routes will remain. They were heading to being more devolved from the centre than previously.
The White Paper makes much of GBR being a totally new organisation, not just the same functions in a different place.
It also says Network Rail must change too, though it acknowledges the start made by Andrew Haines.
I was also surprised to see that Peter Hendy and Andrew Haines were not appointed to the permanent jobs heading GBR.
They have key interim roles (along with their NR day jobs) while the permanent staff are advertised and recruited, which may be from the outside world.
They might want a younger person to Chair it, for instance (Peter is 68).

I would say Andrew Haines is probably the best qualified person to run GBR. Not only has he got the experience of running (and changing) Network Rail, but he has also been on the other side of the fence, successfully running SWT for several years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More grist to the SNP independence mill. The more high-handed BoZo is the more he will drive independence demands. He is utterly despised in Scotland.

In this particular part of England too. We don't all love him. And there have been quite a few Tory protest votes, too.

Personally I'd rather be governed by Sturgeon than Bozza, and I live in the south east of England.

Anyway, back to trains

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

I would say Andrew Haines is probably the best qualified person to run GBR. Not only has he got the experience of running (and changing) Network Rail, but he has also been on the other side of the fence, successfully running SWT for several years.

Just please, please, please keep Alex Hynes and his bluster as far away from it as is humanly possible.

 

[usualmidlander]

Surely Network Rail should remain as an agency focusing on maintenance and operations operating under GBR as well as being owned by them? They can be accountable to GBR and surely that would prevent everything coming under one roof and certain things being missed out? I don’t like feel like GBR can do everything on the railway and be on top of it, it is inevitable that something will be ‘forgotten’ or could go wrong....

 

[Robertj21a]

Cuts coming soon. Sad to see

Depends what they are. No problem if it cuts out unnecessary work.

 

[irish_rail]

So every train will carry a Great British Railways livery? Hmmmm. Thats what schapps seems to have alluded to in interviews.

The idea/possibility that local partnerships and schemes can bid for separate branch lines is intriguing. I could see branch lines in Devon and Cornwall being run locally.

If only. Although I suspect there is more chance of flying pigs .

 

[TUC]

Too much of the media perception on this issue is driven by London-based journalists and commuters who seem woefully ignorant of the fact that other parts of the country have seen far more benefits from competition than their small corner of the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends what they are. No problem if it cuts out unnecessary work.

While I feel for those whose jobs will be affected, being able to reduce the "blame jobs" (i.e. delay attribution) would be a start. You will still need it to some extent to push improvements, but it needn't be to quite the same extent if it's nominally one organisation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

Too much of the media perception on this issue is driven by London-based journalists and commuters who seem woefully ignorant of the fact that other parts of the country have seen far more benefits from competition than their small corner of the UK.

Where has the railway genuinely seen benefit from on-rail competition?

The price-differentiated market on the WCML is about all I can think of. TOCs fighting over tickets costing £1 less is just pointless and doesn't drive improvement. Open Access sort of keeps itself to itself, mostly, it's filling gaps rather than genuine competition. First East Coast is the first (!) genuinely competitive OA proposal - I wonder if it will still happen?

Certainly I can see no benefit whatsoever derived from TPE vs. Northern undercutting each other by 50p, if that is the farce you are referring to.

 

[TUC]

While I feel for those whose jobs will be affected, being able to reduce the "blame jobs" (i.e. delay attribution) would be a start. You will still need it to some extent to push improvements, but it needn't be to quite the same extent if it's nominally one organisation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==



Where has the railway genuinely seen benefit from on-rail competition?

The price-differentiated market on the WCML is about all I can think of. TOCs fighting over tickets costing £1 less is just pointless and doesn't drive improvement. Open Access sort of keeps itself to itself, mostly, it's filling gaps rather than genuine competition. First East Coast is the first (!) genuinely competitive OA proposal - I wonder if it will still happen?

Certainly I can see no benefit whatsoever derived from TPE vs. Northern undercutting each other by 50p, if that is the farce you are referring to.

How about the competition between LNER, Cross Country and Trans Pennine on Newcastle-York, or between LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central on Doncaster-London?

 

[Purple Orange]

How about the competition between LNER, Cross Country and Trans Pennine on Newcastle-York, or between LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central on Doncaster-London?

Yes the ECML on the face of it seems to be a good example of how competition should benefit the passenger, as with Avanti v TPE on the WCML.

 

[matt_world2004]

Will this mean that Heathrow express will be an open access operator. That is included in the publically owned great British Railways GWML concession agreement that is then farmed out to a private company like first

Talk about layers of buerocracy

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Will this mean that Heathrow express will be an open access operator. That is included in the publically owned great British Railways GWML concession agreement that is then farmed out to a private company like first

Talk about layers of buerocracy

Heathrow Express is already an open access operator it’s just GWR run a lot of the operation on their behalf.

 

[Ianno87]

While I feel for those whose jobs will be affected, being able to reduce the "blame jobs" (i.e. delay attribution) would be a start. You will still need it to some extent to push improvements, but it needn't be to quite the same extent if it's nominally one organisation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==



Where has the railway genuinely seen benefit from on-rail competition?

The price-differentiated market on the WCML is about all I can think of. TOCs fighting over tickets costing £1 less is just pointless and doesn't drive improvement. Open Access sort of keeps itself to itself, mostly, it's filling gaps rather than genuine competition. First East Coast is the first (!) genuinely competitive OA proposal - I wonder if it will still happen?

Certainly I can see no benefit whatsoever derived from TPE vs. Northern undercutting each other by 50p, if that is the farce you are referring to.

Cambridge-London has some artificially low fares, particularly off-peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

While I feel for those whose jobs will be affected, being able to reduce the "blame jobs" (i.e. delay attribution) would be a start. You will still need it to some extent to push improvements, but it needn't be to quite the same extent if it's nominally one organisation.

As has been said repeatedly on these pages, delay attribution isn’t going anywhere. It was done in BR days - indeed I did it. It is essential to do to work out why trains have been delayed so that you can then work out how to stop it happening again.

What might stop is the arguing about the money that results from the delay attribution. This involves perhaps 5% of the people involved in delay attribution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

Have they said anything about how/if open access fits into the new scheme of things?

Yes. All existing contracts will be honoured.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting. So essentially we'll see a big merger between LNER, EMR, and half of Northern?

No.

 

[AdamWW]

As has been said repeatedly on these pages, delay attribution isn’t going anywhere. It was done in BR days - indeed I did it. It is essential to do to work out why trains have been delayed so that you can then work out how to stop it happening again.

What might stop is the arguing about the money that results from the delay attribution. This involves perhaps 5% of the people involved in delay attribution

So the effort involved in delay attribution now is not actually much different to in BR days? That's certainly not the impression I generally get.

(edited because my other question was already answered)

And edited again because having looked at the report now, it certainly doesn't give the impression that arguing over blame is only a very small part of the process - it says that around 40% of delays are disputed through an extensive escalation process.