Techniquest
Veteran Member
I have to say, I would too. £30 supplement to Glasgow is a bargain! I would like to know what it is from Birmingham and Crewe to Scotland though, which is where I would be using it.
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Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium
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I have to say, I would too. £30 supplement to Glasgow is a bargain! I would like to know what it is from Birmingham and Crewe to Scotland though, which is where I would be using it.
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_toommm_
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Birmingham to Glasgow is £25 for Standard Premium, as is Crewe to Glasgow:
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Birmingham to Edinburgh is also £25, as is Crewe to Edinburgh:
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www.brfares.com
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www.brfares.com
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
MKC-Edinburgh £30 which is pretty reasonable (Off Peak Return is £139.30), a multiplier of 1.43.
MKC-Brum or Manchester doesn't appear to be offered. For Weekend First these are the same as London which results in it being poor value, though. (1.5-1.6x is where it should sit).
Doing it as an upgrade is probably the way, as that allows for self-upgrading on a business trip where the employer won't pay. It'd be nice to be able to pre-book that in that form with a seat selector.
MKC-Brum or Manchester doesn't appear to be offered. For Weekend First these are the same as London which results in it being poor value, though. (1.5-1.6x is where it should sit).
Doing it as an upgrade is probably the way, as that allows for self-upgrading on a business trip where the employer won't pay. It'd be nice to be able to pre-book that in that form with a seat selector.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Seatfrog is only £8 London Edinburgh (LNER) and £12 London Glasgow (Avanti) which, considering that’s for full first, makes me wonder if I’d pay £30 for just the seat
Have you purchased any first class tickets?
£510 return to Manchester from London. How much more do you want me to pay??????
Scotrail314209
Established Member
So is Weekend First now gone? I can't seem to find anything on the Website about it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they want to increase the price of 1st I think they will need to do more than just make the food slightly better. I suppose they could do an inclusive full three course meal with silver service, but not everyone is going to want that on every service - you just don't want it at say 2pm. Things like private business compartments for meetings, perhaps a dedicated bar a la Virgin Atlantic, superb legroom with proper reclining seats with footrests like Leo Express, or 1+1 seating like the old Heathrow Express might be worth considering if you want to make the experience truly premium and aspirational, not just a different antimacassar and a slightly better small-portion tasting menu.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The fares appear to have gone, so it seems so. To be fair, give or take a pointless little box of stuff you don't really want that isn't good enough as a meal and a tiny paper cup of tea, Standard Premium basically is all week Weekend First, they never had a proper full service in it.
It wouldn't entirely surprise me to see only SP on weekends and no "full fat" 1st. It's not what they are saying they will do, but I suspect they will find basically nobody will pay full whack on a weekend.
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Scotrail314209
Established Member
Additional question, where is Standard Premium located on the nine car sets, Coach H?
Yes it'll be H on a 9 car and G/H on an 11
Standard Premium was officially “launched” by Avanti West Coast today. They’ve also got new headrests:
Source: https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coast-launch-standard-premium-serviceAvanti West Coast launch Standard Premium service
Avanti West Coast set to transform UK rail travel with launch of new Standard Premium class.
Avanti West Coast has become the first UK train operating company to offer an additional class of travel as part of its services.
- Avanti West Coast is the first UK rail operator to offer new class
- New product introduced after successful trial and research with customers
- Move will complement an enhanced First Class offering and refurbishment of Pendolino fleet
Standard Premium will give customers greater choice and is available on all the West Coast Main Line operator’s Pendolino services.
Sitting between Standard and First, customers will enjoy roomier seats, greater space and a guaranteed table.
They will also have the option to purchase refreshments via the new ‘At-Seat Order’ feature where customers can have items delivered to them without moving from their seat.
The new class is initially available to buy as an upgrade on the day of travel, with Advance purchase tickets on sale from July for travel from September. Single journey upgrade prices range from £15 for Birmingham to London to £30 for Glasgow to London.
Standard Premium was developed following initial market research and then successful trials last year and more recently, with customers taking part in the trials asked to rate their experiences and help shape the new product. Figures showed 96% of respondents said they were either “highly likely” or “likely” to upgrade to Standard Premium for future journeys, citing extra space as a key benefit.
As part of further improvements, Avanti West Coast will launch an enhanced First Class offering with improved catering and more bespoke customer service later this year, with the enhanced service available seven days a week. Work is also due to start next month to fully refurbish the entire Pendolino fleet of 56 trains as part of a £117m deal signed with Alstom who maintain the operator’s fleet.
New seats, with leather headrests, will be installed in Standard Premium and First. All 25,000 Standard seats will be also be replaced, with customers also benefiting from a new look onboard shop, as part of the biggest ever fleet upgrade.
In addition, one carriage on all 11 coach Pendolinos (the existing Coach G), will be converted from First to Standard, increasing each train’s seating capacity by 5%. The first refurbished set is due to enter service in November 2021.
Phil Whittingham, Manager Director at Avanti West Coast said: “This is the first major step in our transformation of services on the West Coast. Together with our upcoming First Class service which will lead the industry, and the complete refurbishment of the Pendolino fleet, Standard Premium will set a new benchmark for UK rail travel.
“Our new class of travel will offer greater choice and provide a unique offer which meets customers’ changing needs as they return to rail. This new feature is another step in raising the bar for excellence on the railway.”
Source: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/onboard/standard-premium
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Mikey C
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A strange time to announce this, as it'll be massively overshadowed by the other rail news today
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Am I being overly cynical by saying if the "Standard" product wasn't so awful on the 390's (horrible seats, terrible spacing WRT windows, etc., etc.,) there would be no requirement for the "Premium" offering?
The first time I ever travelled on a 390 it was a revelation, but I've come to detest them, the windows being the biggest gripe.
The first time I ever travelled on a 390 it was a revelation, but I've come to detest them, the windows being the biggest gripe.
Journeyman
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Yes, in short.
This fills a useful gap and makes the key benefit of first (bigger seat and greater space) available for less money. Fine by me.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes. Even good Standard (say, the Class 444 or the ScotRail HST, or if you're a Sophia fan the 397) isn't 2+1 and doesn't have the extra legroom.
It's an offering for those of us who just want more space without the gimmickry - in essence a revival of BR-days Weekend First but all week. To me, the selling point of 1st is a seat that is both window and aisle. In Standard I have a pretty good record of getting a window-aligned priority-row seat, to be honest, but that doesn't stop me being pushed up against whoever is next to me and having to choose between seeing out and having to ask them to move if I want to go to the loo or buffet.
The reason it's called "Standard Premium" and not "First Lite" or "Business Class" or something is because some people will be able to sneak it past "no 1st" expenses policies. That's exactly why Eurostar used a name similar to that too.
And the reason it's a supplement is that there's a solid market there for "self upgrading" - the employer won't pay for 1st, but the employee will upgrade themselves. This is rather complex with normal tickets as you have to faff with excessing, and if it's an Advance may not be possible at all otherwise.
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Ditto here. I do agree that the standard-class experience on the 390 is a bit more dire than on other trains but as far as my priorities go this delivers what I most want from first class without the price of all the silly frills.
Indeed my only real concern is that there'll be too few SP seats available.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Birmingham to Glasgow is £25 for Standard Premium, as is Crewe to Glasgow:
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Birmingham to Edinburgh is also £25, as is Crewe to Edinburgh:
Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.
Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey
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Thanks, that's good value from Birmingham. Not quite so good from Crewe in my view, but still not bad.
Not that I have any plans to travel on Avanti any time soon, however it is good to have the prices in advance, ready for planning future trips.
Generally speaking, I don't mind Standard Class on a 390, and for a fast run from Birmingham to London I'm not super likely to pay the £15. On certain occasions, yes I will as it will depend what I've been doing before the journey or the plan for the rest of the day. If it was on the way back from London, after a long cycle ride, then I probably would just to assist the recovery. Mind you, if I had to walk all the way to coach A then back to coach H before boarding, and vice versa in Birmingham, then I'd be better off booking a table seat in coach A or B with a good view.
That sort of thing I wouldn't mind so much if I was going to Edinburgh or Glasgow from Birmingham, given there would be more time at journey's end to get to the bike area and all that. With the few minutes the train sits in Birmingham, then I would use that to fight my way back from coach A to coach H before settling in.
We will see what happens in the distant future, I haven't got the time off work yet anyway. Plus it's more likely I will book New Zealand before I book my next trip to Scotland!
From their news item linked above "In addition, one carriage on all 11 coach Pendolinos (the existing Coach G), will be converted from First to Standard, increasing each train’s seating capacity by 5%. The first refurbished set is due to enter service in November 2021." so only one coach of standard premium regardless of train length.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The balance they're going for at the moment is 1 coach SP and 1.5 (J and K) First - G is being converted to Standard on the 11s as well. I can see that being swapped over if it's really successful. And I can't see much takeup for "proper" 1st on weekends so while they're not saying this now I'd expect only SP on weekends before very long.
The review does say that where appropriate contract operators will be given some commercial freedom. I could see it being used as a test bed and if successful introduced on other Intercity routes.
I agree in your thinking @Bletchleyite but even so £510 does not justify current level of service (pre covid) and especially currently. I don't want to pay £600 for a three course meal. First Class has been milked beyond sustainable levels since the end of British Rail back in 1994 by all operators. More people would be travelling First Class today if the prices were sensible, flexible and without the frills such as a so called complimentary sandwich which is quite horrible most of the time.
Introduction of Standard Premier I think is the start of the end of first class proper.
The supplement for SP has been set at a reasonable price and can see many people trading down from 1st and those trading up in standard.
As others have posted up thread the type of people you see maxing freebies in 1st are those on super advance tickets rather than your business types.
The current food offer is very poor and when I use the train I will probably downgrade and just pay for food and drink and still make a saving. If many people downgrade from 1st two things will happen: The price of the supplements will increase (especially during peak hours) and the first class coach will be sparsly filled.
It would be good for Avanti to offer complimentary coffee/tea in SP as that costs hardly nothing and is a good customer benefit like Midland Main Line offered free tea and coffee to all customers in the early days of franchising.
Standard Premier is not new. Chiltern Railways offers "Business Zone" on limited services for years. First Class seat around a table for a supplement however the product is not as good as it once was when Chiltern had catering on its Silver Trains. That was really outstanding, relaxing and civilised way to travel to Birmingham from London with the availability of refeshments and breakfast hot food could be purchased for a very reasonable price all freshly cooked. Now sadly long gone and haven't used Chiltern since.
I can see SP sucessful. Afterall the DfT want to kill 1st class and SP is the way to go as it doesn't involve fares reform.
One final comment for 1st season ticket holders as I had in the past - there needs to be a SP season pass.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's difficult to get tea that badly wrong, but personally I'd rather pay for good coffee than have bad coffee free.
TBH if I was designing First I'd follow DB's model - the buffet menu served at your seat at the listed price, but on proper crockery etc to give a premium feel.
From my point of view, charge me about 1.5-1.6 times the Standard fare for a seat that's both window and aisle, aligned with the window properly and has a decent table (folding is fine, indeed a single seat is my preference), with everything else in terms of ticket T&Cs identical to Standard, and I'll go First every single time unless on expenses when I'm not allowed, and if you let me upgrade myself for the same uplift I might even do so then, too. I very often travel 1st abroad where those are the terms.
Note: I have no interest in "sham 1st" - 2+2 belongs in Standard, and 3+2 belongs in the bin. The "hard product" needs to be right.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Indeed, the DB first-class with a reasonably priced hot meal (and a decent bottle of beer included) as an extra brought to your table is a great service.
That was my initial thinking, but I suppose we have to see how it goes.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would be very surprised if the balance of coaches doesn't change to H 1st and J/K SP, and only SP on weekends, in pretty short order.
Journeyman
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But the location of the galley is important.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
As someone who drinks a lot of coffee, I would have to agree. I will pay a premium for a coffee that I know is good quality, but also the service has to be good. I was once a loyal Nero customer, not in years gone by (those who remember my 'norm' trip to Ireland in 2015 might remember my displeasure at Nero being served on Virgin Trains!) but certainly in 2019 and 2020 I spent a fortune with them.
Sadly, my local Nero jacked their prices up in 2020. 50p more for the same americano was unacceptable. My Nero reusable cup still sits in the cupboard, unused, a waste of £12. Costa jacked their prices up too, but by nothing close to the same amount. We'll get to them...Nero's service also started going downhill, and the quality of my mocha when I had one varied so much. Not just in different branches, but by the same barista/manager. I have to this day not had a mocha as good as the one in Liverpool last year, now he knew how to make a coconut milk mocha! To this day I have not had a coffee that has made me feel so good like that one since then, and that's a shame.
Costa, they were in my bad books locally too. I have two nearby, and one of them I don't like going to if the manager is on. Service is too on edge, when he's not in the baristas are much more friendly and a better coffee gets made. The coffee can be great, but if the service stinks then I stop going. Quite, I only went to the same one yesterday, after not going for ages, because it was almost where I was, and I'm currently recovering from a bike accident so going too far is not an option.
Starbucks are the same, service in my nearest one in Ross on Wye is consistently bad. I thought I'd had two bad runs of luck, but the third time has led to me saying no more. The coffee is great, but the service is so poor I won't go back. Yet the one in Newport that I went to last week was amazingly good service, nothing was too much trouble for them and both of them were really friendly.
So the point is that amazing coffee I will pay a lot for, and bear in mind I normally have just a black, sugarless coffee. Easiest thing in the world to make! If service is poor, I won't bother again. The same applies to First Class in general for me.
I had a less than decent service in 2008 in First Class with Virgin Trains, I think it was so bad I only ever did local leaps in the Midlands in First thereafter, and even then that was maybe only twice. Once was a Watford to Birmingham ride actually, and let's not comment there! For me, no one did First Class better than FGW. Even EMT did First Class better than Virgin, which I sampled on a Derby to Sheffield trip. I didn't like EMT much at all in general, but I loved Virgin Trains. Even the TOC most like Marmite, XC, does First Class better than Virgin Trains did in my experience!
I have not sampled Avanti on a proper length ride yet, however I remain optimistic that their First Class service will be better than Virgin Trains.
Bishopstone
Established Member
It sounds as though Standard Premium will run with zero dedicated staff: just the Train Manager passing through doing revenue, and a cafe-bar resource doing the At Seat deliveries, shared with Standard.
The work intensive offering will be First and, I concur with others, it seems unlikely that Avanti will commit to that level of overhead at the weekend, with limited occupancy. Indeed, First may shrivel to some key breakfast and evening meal trains, as I’m not clear how they could deliver value to justify the fare on the 14.30 to Birmingham.
The work intensive offering will be First and, I concur with others, it seems unlikely that Avanti will commit to that level of overhead at the weekend, with limited occupancy. Indeed, First may shrivel to some key breakfast and evening meal trains, as I’m not clear how they could deliver value to justify the fare on the 14.30 to Birmingham.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
to be honest when I've used First on the EUS-LIV 19/20/21:07 departures, the "meal" offering has been absolutely dreadful. A few crackers and not enough cheese to choke a mouse.
Its a good job the steward has always given me enough Scotch to almost forget the experience.
Voyager lad
Member
I might be the only one here, but the idea of Standard Premium really frustrates me. I like travelling first class for the food and drink - even if it is just a sandwhich and drinks. As I usually travel long distance at unsociable hours many shops etc aren’t open, so I’d rather pay £10-15 to upgrade to first class (via Seatfrog) and know I’m going to get food plus several rounds of drinks. I don’t mind the seats in standard so I’m not upgrading for a better seat.
A recent example; I paid £15 for a seatfrog upgrade from Aberdeen - Darlington (4hrs 40 mins) and got 2 full rounds of food service (sandwhiches, biscuits etc) plus 4 drinks rounds. The equivalent from the cafe bar would’ve been at least £25. And whilst this was on LNER, Avanti prices are broadly similar.
With this ‘Standard Premium’ model, I’d have liked to see a continued complimentary service of drinks and snacks, with chargeable proper food options (which could even be the first class meals!). I will be completely priced out of First Class now which is a shame, as I did use it on most Avanti journeys. I imagine it’ll be a similar situation for most. And I won’t upgrade to Standard Premium without an improved food offering, even if chargeable!
A recent example; I paid £15 for a seatfrog upgrade from Aberdeen - Darlington (4hrs 40 mins) and got 2 full rounds of food service (sandwhiches, biscuits etc) plus 4 drinks rounds. The equivalent from the cafe bar would’ve been at least £25. And whilst this was on LNER, Avanti prices are broadly similar.
With this ‘Standard Premium’ model, I’d have liked to see a continued complimentary service of drinks and snacks, with chargeable proper food options (which could even be the first class meals!). I will be completely priced out of First Class now which is a shame, as I did use it on most Avanti journeys. I imagine it’ll be a similar situation for most. And I won’t upgrade to Standard Premium without an improved food offering, even if chargeable!
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