Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[southern442]

I think keeping separate brands is a good idea, although they could do with a shakeup a bit, make certain bits have more of a local identity etc. Have we heard anything set in stone as to what will happen with branding?

As for the name itself, why not just National Rail?

 

[Giugiaro]

Let me give a shot at it:

 

[mathewsmith198]

Not a fan of them ditching the double arrow logo!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just hope they don't drape everything in union flags. Now using red, white & blue in a fairly tasteful way like LU would be fine.

I think British Airways are probably a guide to how to do a tasteful livery with the Union Flag's colours. Easy to vinyl it onto a white base, too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

Let me give a shot at it:

View attachment 96634

Not really a fan. But what might work is taking the LNER Azuma livery and replacing the grey on the swoop and thin bodyside line below the window band with blue.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Not a fan of them ditching the double arrow logo!

One of the best logs ever in my opinion. Has it been said that it will be replaced?

 

[Watershed]

One of the best logs ever in my opinion. Has it been said that it will be replaced?

They've said they'll be keeping it. I think the bigger issue is the shocking name.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

One of the best logs ever in my opinion. Has it been said that it will be replaced?

It actually says that this symbol will be the default symbol to represent this company, so totally the opposite!

 

[ainsworth74]

Not a fan of them ditching the double arrow logo!

Good thing they're not I guess...

 

[jon0844]

I think keeping separate brands is a good idea, although they could do with a shakeup a bit, make certain bits have more of a local identity etc. Have we heard anything set in stone as to what will happen with branding?

As for the name itself, why not just National Rail?

Does make you wonder, when the industry has at least managed to get it into the minds of passengers who can look up train times, engineering work, book tickets and so on - as well as seeing the BR logo.

I also see no harm in returning to the name British Rail, given so many people have argued for years that they want a return to BR. Sure, it's not actually going to be like the old BR, and yes people will make jokes but there is going to be NO name or branding that won't be subject to jokes. Even if services ran 100% to time and fares were slashed in half, there would be some moaning (for example, those moaning about the inevitable subsidies to reduce fares or that they don't have a train service near them so why isn't the money spent on roads).

Given how many signs say 'National Rail' it does seem like an incredibly expensive exercise to change them, and also get TfL to change their signage (which they probably will be in absolutely no rush to do).

And then there's the cost or replacing/vinyl wrapping ALL railway signs to use the new colour scheme/font if that becomes a thing.

 

[reddragon]

The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales & NI so UKR couldn't be used as NI Rail is not included.

Great Britain is England, Scotland & Wales so fits as GBR.

If Scotland leaves the UK it must become British Rail as Britain is defined as just England & Wales!

 

[JaJaWa]

And then there's the cost or replacing/vinyl wrapping ALL railway signs to use the new colour scheme/font if that becomes a thing.

That quite often happens on a TOC / franchise change anyway, only difference is that this is the last time they need to do it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given how many signs say 'National Rail' it does seem like an incredibly expensive exercise to change them, and also get TfL to change their signage (which they probably will be in absolutely no rush to do).

TfL was using "National Rail" long before ATOC was (other than "National Rail Enquiries", but that was still in an ex-BR sense of "(National) Rail Enquiries" rather than its eventual form of "(National Rail) Enquiries", if you see what I mean. It's still a factual description of "the opposite of London rail".

 

[jon0844]

That quite often happens on a TOC chance anyway, only difference is this is the last time they need to do it

That is very true, but I'd assume that they'd want to carry this work out fairly quickly and so while it might not need doing again for some time (bear in mind, they'd likely use vinyls which will wear/fade) it will require a massive initial investment, plus the time to produce the signs/vinyls and install them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

TfL was using "National Rail" long before ATOC was. It's still a factual description of "the opposite of London rail".

Indeed, and I expect they won't change the signs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is very true, but I'd assume that they'd want to carry this work out fairly quickly and so while it might not need doing again for some time (bear in mind, they'd likely use vinyls which will wear/fade) it will require a massive initial investment, plus the time to produce the signs/vinyls and install them.

Or you just don't panic and do a rolling programme, starting with the most visible bits (i.e. WCML, ECML, GWML) and then prioritising anything with a TOC brand on it (e.g. neither Southern nor SWR have TOC branding on station nameboards).

What I hope they don't do is go round sticking tape on things, as that is just ugly.

 

[jon0844]

Or you just don't panic and do a rolling programme, starting with the most visible bits (i.e. WCML, ECML, GWML) and then prioritising anything with a TOC brand on it (e.g. neither Southern nor SWR have TOC branding on station nameboards).

What I hope they don't do is go round sticking tape on things, as that is just ugly.

Given the cost of a single sign, I am 99% sure it will be vinyls in all cases except where a sign is end-of-life and has to be replaced due to damage/rust or whatever.

Stations have so many signs too, from the wayfinding ones, to the station names, platform signs and so on. It's a big job and I am very interested to see how desperate the new body will be to establish its new identity, over taking more of a long-term view.

 

[mathewsmith198]

Good thing they're not I guess...

"GBR will absorb the current infrastructure manager Network Rail to provide ‘single, unified and accountable leadership’, using ‘a single, familiar brand — updating the famous National Rail double arrow’."

Great British Railways to provide ‘united, accountable leadership’ for the rail sector

UK: Replacing ‘a quarter-century of fragmentation’ with ‘single, accountable national leadership’ is at the core of the government’s Williams-Shapps Plan for reform of the railways in Great Britain, with passenger services to be provided by private sector concessionaires under contract to a new...

www.railwaygazette.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the cost of a single sign, I am 99% sure it will be vinyls in all cases except where a sign is end-of-life and has to be replaced due to damage/rust or whatever.

Full vinyls are fine, I was referring to sticking electrical tape over TOC brand names as often happens on changeover and is just pig-ugly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"GBR will absorb the current infrastructure manager Network Rail to provide ‘single, unified and accountable leadership’, using ‘a single, familiar brand — updating the famous National Rail double arrow’."

Great British Railways to provide ‘united, accountable leadership’ for the rail sector

UK: Replacing ‘a quarter-century of fragmentation’ with ‘single, accountable national leadership’ is at the core of the government’s Williams-Shapps Plan for reform of the railways in Great Britain, with passenger services to be provided by private sector concessionaires under contract to a new...

www.railwaygazette.com

How is updating it ditching it?

An example of updating it might be changing the "font" weight and perhaps putting it inside something e.g. the circle that is common at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

Full vinyls are fine, I was referring to sticking electrical tape over TOC brand names as often happens on changeover and is just pig-ugly.

Agreed. Signs should be branded like trains, where the TOC logo was actually stuck on and could be removed - rather than part of the sign that then needs to be covered up.

 

[Grumpy Git]

How is updating it ditching it?

An example of updating it might be changing the "font" weight and perhaps putting it inside something e.g. the circle that is common at the moment.

Please god not like the current trend of flag waving?

 

[och aye]

Has any information regarding the branding of stations been announced? i.e. is every GBR owned station going to be rebranded i.e. Will branded stations like: Merseyrail. London Overground, ScotRail be staying, completely rebranded or co-branded?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has any information regarding the branding of stations been announced? i.e. is every GBR owned station going to be rebranded i.e. Will branded stations like: Merseyrail. London Overground, ScotRail be staying, completely rebranded or co-branded?

I would be astonished if there was any noticeable change to devolved operations (i.e. LO, Merseyrail, TfW and ScotRail) other than any Network Rail logos being replaced with Great British Railways ones. Way too political to even go there.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Let me give a shot at it:

View attachment 96634

I sort of love it and hate it at the same time, perhaps if it said 'LNER' between the two doors, so the arrow points to the brand name, that would take some attention away from the large splash of red.

 

[ainsworth74]

"GBR will absorb the current infrastructure manager Network Rail to provide ‘single, unified and accountable leadership’, using ‘a single, familiar brand — updating the famous National Rail double arrow’."

Or from the document itself (page 7):

There will be a new brand and identity for the whole system, built upon the double arrow, with national and regional sub-identities.

 

[Grumpy Git]

.................................. other than any Network Rail logos being replaced with Great British Railways ones.

Plenty of "Hi-Viz" opportunities for government ministers incoming..................

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please god not like the current trend of flag waving?

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

It's odd to me. Most people on here I suspect liked Network SouthEast branding, which is in the Union Flag colours. Yet as soon as someone suggests that's what it is, they hate it.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

It's odd to me. Most people on here I suspect liked Network SouthEast branding, which is in the Union Flag colours. Yet as soon as someone suggests that's what it is, they hate it.

I'm not ashamed of the flag in any way shape of form, but I am sick of the way "this lot" wrap themselves in it at every opportunity. It's nothing other than cheap nationalism designed to appeal to a narrow audience.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's mentioned on the other thread that Peter Hendy wants to bring back what is to me a very dated design scheme - black on white signage, Rail Alphabet font (albeit a slightly tweaked version, but it still shouts 1980s) and the double arrow. The latter is clearly a very strong piece of branding and should be retained, however personally I think the version in a circle looks more modern.

I think the orange cardstock tickets look better with the double arrow in white (without the circle that was added as part of the 'National Rail' brand). I also think the station signs (double arrow on a red background) would look very wrong if you added the circle. So, no circle please. I'm strongly in favour of Rail Alphabet being the norm for most stations, although I would allow exceptions (eg. where a heritage theme is adopted like Birmingham Moor Street) provided each station has a consistent look. Black-on-white could well look rather bland though, I think the background should be white but there should be a broad strip of another colour along the bottom (like the Wales & West / Regional Railways navy blue strip, but going the full width of the sign and not necessarily navy blue - TfW could use red, ScotRail navy blue, GWR brown, SWR/Southern/SouthEastern green, WCML red etc.).

Personally I think we should get Best Impressions in, who did an absolutely superb piece of work for London Midland* in collaboration with David Whitley, managing to do a great job of "creating desire" for what was actually a very basic half-commuter, half-budget operation with some serious problems e.g. overcrowding. Stenning just seems to have this ability to make public transport look really good, which is what we sorely need.

Any other thoughts?

* I believe Stagecoach "beachball" was also his doing - an excellent scheme which still looks modern and makes "new Stagecoach" look like a cross between a school bus and a Fisher Price toy - any others?

I think Best Impressions did the Virgin Trains East Coast livery which, while it does have some nice aspects is, as far as I can remember off the top of my head, the worst livery the 91s have ever carried.

GBR is such a mouthful - its just latent fear of the British Rail brand. Which does what it says on the tin.

'Great British Railways' is a bit of a mouthful yes, but let it be. Hopefully they will realise that in time and, just like the original 'British Railways' have a re-brand and shorten the name to 'British Rail'.

Interesting to know what will happen to new franchises like Avanti. Will their trains need yet another new livery applied to them?

Just leave them as is and add 'Great British Railways' stickers - just like how EMR added 'EMR Intercity' to the EMT livery. Hopefully the trains will fall due for their next repaint just at the right time to participate in the rebrand from GBR to 'British Rail'.

 

[Logan Carroll]

Absolutely horrific name, similar to the creeping nationalism of the Scotrail Saltire branding.

So bassicly an england wide PTE with a union jack on it? absolutely pathetic.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Or from the document itself (page 7):

I'm expecting a more swirly fluid version of it, a cross between the old BR double arrows and a BA tail fin.