Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[WestRiding]

The name is dreadful and to me smacks of pandering to a certain section of the voting public?

Happy to be proved wrong.

What exactly is wrong with branding the railway of the UK with something that relates to the UK?

Wouldn't really work if we called it OBB or DB or PKP, would it.

Every other country in Europe relates their railway to the Nationality.

 

[camflyer]

Perhaps "Great British Railways" will be the legal name of the holding company but British Rail will effectively be the operational brand

 

[Grumpy Git]

What exactly is wrong with branding the railway of the UK with something that relates to the UK?

Wouldn't really work if we called it OBB or DB or PKP, would it.

Every other country in Europe relates their railway to the Nationality.

If that were the case it would be called "Great Britain Rail" which is equally dreadful.

When I'm asked my nationality, I don't say I'm "Great British".

Awful, awful, awful!

This could do with some input from an English language expert.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OeBB is "Oesterreichishe Bundesbahn", which translates as "Austrian Railway", not "Austria Railway".
DB is "Deutsche Bahn", which translates as "German Rail", not "Germany Rail"
I don't speak Polish.

Touche

 

[E100]

Either way I'm quite excited by the potential changes and certainly hope that it will lead to some great liveries. Nevertheless I do hope they retain the ability for special additions e.g. "for the fallen" etc.

 

[zwk500]

OeBB is "Oesterreichishe Bundesbahn", which translates as "Austrian Railway", not "Austria Railway".
DB is "Deutsche Bahn", which translates as "German Rail", not "Germany Rail"
I don't speak Polish.

Touche

Off the top of my head, most GB-wide organisations are either 'British' or 'Great Britain' but not 'Great British'. The latter tends to be used mainly by Television Producers (Great British Menu, Bake Off, Mr Portillo's infuriatingly pompous waffle). GBR is also a rather generic code for the country generally (with or without NI) in the international arena, although I doubt there's any situations where context would not make it clear the railways specifically were being talked about.

 

[mike57]

Well, the dust is still settling, but a few takeaways:

The name while not snappy, will probably get shortened in daily usage, with a lot of us older ones still refering to British Rail I imagine that may become the short form name, or may be BritRail or BR.

I think the average passenger will appreciate the single organisation idea.

 

[reddragon]

IET minus Bedwyn is intercity for me

IET also do peak TV services PAD - Maidenhead & all stations to Didcot!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

Livery - Red White & Blue, a toned down NSE toothpaste livery?

 

[zwk500]

IET also do peak TV services PAD - Maidenhead & all stations to Didcot!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2021 ==

Livery - Red White & Blue, a toned down NSE toothpaste livery?

TBH they could do a lot worse than a version of the BR Tail fin at the front of the Power Car in the Virgin WC 'flowing silk' style, with a blue & Red band running the length of the train Azuma-style

 

[Devonian]

I wonder if TfL will also have to change the directional signs at their stations.

If I were responsible for TfL's signage, I would argue that the signs point to the "national rail network" rather than a "National Rail" company, and leave them well alone!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off the top of my head, most GB-wide organisations are either 'British' or 'Great Britain' but not 'Great British'. The latter tends to be used mainly by Television Producers (Great British Menu, Bake Off, Mr Portillo's infuriatingly pompous waffle). GBR is also a rather generic code for the country generally (with or without NI) in the international arena, although I doubt there's any situations where context would not make it clear the railways specifically were being talked about.

I suspect a few reasons:

1. Calling it "British Rail" just has too much old baggage associated with it
2. "Railways" in full harks back to better times
3. "Great British" refers to the island of Great Britain, which give or take Island Line is accurate
er, 4. Portillo's programme becomes advertising on the Beeb?!

 

[Taunton]

I recall all the sniping when "British Railways" was replaced by "British Rail" - the latter, along with its logo, going on to be one of the iconic brands of all time.

 

[zwk500]

I suspect a few reasons:

1. Calling it "British Rail" just has too much old baggage associated with it

Probably. Although there were many things British Rail did very well, and we shouldn't forget that.

2. "Railways" in full harks back to better times

Does it? It harks back to a time that can no longer be, to me. Yet another example of these people who want to rebuild the Empire.

3. "Great British" refers to the island of Great Britain, which give or take Island Line is accurate

Also Portsea, Sheppey, Anglesey and Holy Island (are there any more?). I take your point, although I've not heard it used in that context.

er, 4. Portillo's programme becomes advertising on the Beeb?!

Not exactly a great advert: Look, here's an insufferable arse who is toting a 150 year old guidebook and getting in the way of people doing actual jobs while at it.

 

[XAM2175]

I'd also like to note just how much I detest the new name, not that it makes any great difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it? It harks back to a time that can no longer be, to me. Yet another example of these people who want to rebuild the Empire.

In a way I guess it depends what you think of the gWr branding. I think it's brilliant myself (not often I say that of a FirstGroup product) - combines a nice twinge of nostalgia with a modern railway.

It's a shame gBr wouldn't give a quite as nice looking logotype.

 

[Frontera2]

I think the return of a common brand for long distance trains aka InterCity would be a great step in the right direction.. Our model with 19 TOCs operating services in such a relatively small space as the UK just seems crazy to me, hence it's not been replicated anywhere else in the world!

Sure the trains will be different but if the livery, standards and name was consistent then that can only be a positive in my view. The current situation for long distance, pre-COVID, just doesn't make sense... Using first class as an example, lets say I'm a business traveller and was making 5 "InterCity" journeys from London in a week, this would be the experience:

London to Norwich: Free tea and coffee, no meal or alcohol
London to York: Full meal and alcohol
London to Sheffield: Free light refreshments, meals are chargeable
London to Bristol: Free light refreshments, no meals available
London to Liverpool: Full meal and alcohol
London to Salisbury: Nothing free


I can't see how this inconsistency benefits the passenger?

 

[zwk500]

In a way I guess it depends what you think of the gWr branding. I think it's brilliant myself (not often I say that of a FirstGroup product) - combines a nice twinge of nostalgia with a modern railway.

It's a shame gBr wouldn't give a quite as nice looking logotype.

They've done it well, as did South Central with the 'Southern' Branding. Crucially what both did is to take the historic 'feel' and apply it sensitively with modern updates in the right areas - they GWR initials and all-over green being a case in point.

British Railways or British Rail I would be fine with, it's the 'Great' that I am personally not enthused by. It could work, so I will wait and see what happens.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I wish in this country we can say the phrase “Great British” without causing a national identity crisis. I would describe myself as patriotic, but GBR does not make me feel patriotic. Just exhausted from all those syllables.

Yes, GBR smacks of Johnson’s rather embarrassing boosterism, but what did we expect? There’s no way they were going to call it ‘British Rail’ and UK Rail would be inaccurate.

 

[birchesgreen]

I just hope they don't drape everything in union flags. Now using red, white & blue in a fairly tasteful way like LU would be fine.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I just hope they don't drape everything in union flags. Now using red, white & blue in a fairly tasteful way like LU would be fine.

I’ll be fine with a little one on the can front, but even then, I agree it’s rather unnecessary. The Americans put flags on their trains, even on the New York subway.

What MIGHT be interesting, is a national flag for where the train is maintained. For instance, XC Hsts allocated to Craigentinny could have a small Saltire on the cab front, whilst Neville Hill allocated units could have a St George’s flag.

 

[scragend]

If I were responsible for TfL's signage, I would argue that the signs point to the "national rail network" rather than a "National Rail" company, and leave them well alone!

I would agree with you. The signs now don't point to "GWR", or "Avanti", or "Network Rail-maintained infrastructure" - so why would they need to point to "Great British Railways"?

"National Rail", to mean the national rail network, is fine. Leave the signs as they are.

 

[JaJaWa]

There was a couple of years post-privatisation where they didn't see the need to establish a "National Rail" brand.

I've seen a Tube map from this time which describes the BR/NR symbol as "Railways of Great Britain" in the key, but I can't seem to find a copy now.

 

[Mat17]

I'm going to call it (in full) the Company Formerly Known as British Rail.

Mind you I still think of HSTs as 125s... Perhaps some brand names just stick and work?

 

[norbitonflyer]

We have had GCR, GER (twice), GNR, GNER, GNSR, GSWR, GWR (also twice), but never a GBR before. There was a GB&NDR (Glasgow, Barrhead and Nielston Direct - later GB&KR when it was extended to Kilmarnock, until taken over by larger neighbours in 1888)

Livery - how about a return to "blood and custard"? Please not GWR's dreary livery, which seems to be a misinterpretation of the old GWR's colours - only the locomotives were green: coaches, including dmus*, were chocolate and cream.

(*The old GWR had a part share in the original (1906) Hammersmith & City electric rolling stock, but never owned any electric trains outright).

 

[Mat17]

Livery - how about a return to "blood and custard"? Please not GWR's dreary livery, which seems to be a misinterpretation of the old GWR's colours - only the locomotives were green: coaches, including dmus*, were chocolate and cream.

As much as I love Blood/Custard it doesn't look that great on modern stock. Strathclyde Transport tried something similar and it didn't look that good tbh. The old WYPTE also tried, it looked a little better, but it prioritised the red over the cream in its later incarnations to make 158s look decent.

I always thought provincial sky blue looked great on 142s but it didn't look at all good on 150s!

It'd be hard to find a livery that matches everything.

Id always go for Blue/Grey, simply because I have deep affection for that livery. It might suit a 158 or a Voyager but not sure it'd suit an Azuma?

 

[camflyer]

I'm going to call it (in full) the Company Formerly Known as British Rail.

Mind you I still think of HSTs as 125s... Perhaps some brand names just stick and work?

And some rebrandings are a total failure: Consignia, Centrica, Cardiff City FC to name just a few. You can't make people adopt a new name

 

[jon0844]

I just hope they don't drape everything in union flags. Now using red, white & blue in a fairly tasteful way like LU would be fine.

I doubt anyone seriously thinks that it has anything to do with a post-Brexit Tory lurch to the right in the name of populism.




Oh.

(Picture of Grant Shapps in York, with Union Flags all around and a small selection of comments on Twitter)

 

[philosopher]

Well, the dust is still settling, but a few takeaways:

The name while not snappy, will probably get shortened in daily usage, with a lot of us older ones still refering to British Rail I imagine that may become the short form name, or may be BritRail or BR.

I think the average passenger will appreciate the single organisation idea.

Personally I think BritRail is the best name. It is not reusing an old name, is quite snappy and reasonably accurately describes where it is serving. BritRail would however likely be abbrivated to BR, with all the associations, good and bad that has.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

You could have a livery framework each for regional , intercity and southeast with colour variance as to region so there is semi consistency, much along the lines of what the ptes used to do for Regional Railways .

In that case we'd be seeing the return of MetroTrain and Network South Yorkshire which were the names used for the Regional Railways services in both West and South Yorkshire.

 

[scosutsut]

It won't and shouldn't be the first priority but I think a unified appearance would help the common customer (and tourist, if we are still going to get those post COVID) understand the system better, especially if work is done to simplify and unify ticketing first so a national identity would be a good thing.

With the current administration I would be surprised if it's anything less than union jack's everywhere and three word nonsensical catchphrases.

Trains. Are. Bestest.

Or the likes.