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Media Coverage of COVID -19

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MikeWM

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Yet we also have articles like this, squarely looking to pin any blame for 21/6 being delayed on those 'selfish idiots' who don't want a vaccine.

Ah, Mrs Michael Gove helping to prepare the ground for her husband's 'vaccine passport' idea.

Someone has obviously realised they haven't whipped up enough fear and hatred of the unvaccinated yet to justify introducing 'passports', so we're seeing this exciting period of co-ordinated government and media propaganda, which they hope will lead to a general demand from those vaccinated for a system that discriminates against having to mix with the unvaccinated - and, as if by magic, they have something almost ready that will do exactly that! What a coincidence :rolleyes:
 
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DustyBin

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Ah, Mrs Michael Gove helping to prepare the ground for her husband's 'vaccine passport' idea.

Someone has obviously realised they haven't whipped up enough fear and hatred of the unvaccinated yet to justify introducing 'passports', so we're seeing this exciting period of co-ordinated government and media propaganda, which they hope will lead to a general demand from those vaccinated for a system that discriminates against having to mix with the unvaccinated - and, as if by magic, they have something almost ready that will do exactly that! What a coincidence :rolleyes:

I’ve got to say, I’m finding it difficult to dismiss your theory!
 

MikeWM

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I’ve got to say, I’m finding it difficult to dismiss your theory!

I continue to hope that I'm completely wrong about this, but nothing that has happened in the last year or so has done anything but shore up my suspicions :-/

Still, we're fast approaching the time when we should finally find out what we've been on a 'roadmap' to. A return to pre-2020 normality, or a dystopia of endless tests, 'booster' vaccinations and 'papers please'?
 

richardsun

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Of course there are some that cannot be jabbed, but those that think it inserts a chip, or changes your DNA etc, then if they get it, we hope its not severe.
I don't think it inserts a chip or changes my DNA.
However, I am aware that this type of vaccine (mRNA) has never been licensed for human use before.
The vaccines have no long term test data, because there hasn't been a 'long term' - this part of the testing process simply cannot be accelerated, which is why all the vaccines are still within the stage 3 trial phase, and have only been given temporary authorisation for emergency use (is it still an 'emergency'?)
As a fit and healthy bloke in my 40s, tell me why am I being stupid or irresponsible for declining this jab, compared to taking my chances against a rapidly dwindling virus which I have a 99.999+% chance of surviving?
 
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Darandio

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As a fit and healthy bloke in my 40s, tell me why am I being stupid or irresponsible for declining this jab, compared to taking my chances against a rapidly dwindling virus which I have a 99.999+% chance of surviving?

Because you are getting the vaccine to protect others, innit.

Not my view of course but the standard stock reply that is seen on social media for your type of question.
 

richardsun

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Because you are getting the vaccine to protect others, innit.
Well I'm sorry, but if that means risking my own health on an undertested jab, then I'm afraid I'm going to take the selfish option.

Not my view of course but the standard stock reply that is seen on social media for your type of question.
It's really all about the virtue signalling these days, isn't it! :rolleyes:
 

kristiang85

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Eh
It's really all about the virtue signalling these days, isn't it! :rolleyes:

Quite. Look at the sticker they give you to wear when you get the jab (mine went straight in the bin) and the Facebook frames you are encouraged to put on your profile.

I am also very tempted to block any friend who posts their vaccination card on social media. Though I realised if I do, I won't have many left :D
 

NSEFAN

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Because you are getting the vaccine to protect others, innit.

Not my view of course but the standard stock reply that is seen on social media for your type of question.
But... That's the entire point of vaccinating a majority of people against a disease? Protecting the population against it by making it less likely to infect and spread? Once a critical mass of people is vaccinated, it can protect the unvaccinated. I don't know what the threshold is for covid, that data may not exist yet. We might already be at this point, although perhaps other things like testing, masks, sanitising, good ventilation, etc might be giving a false impression.
 

Domh245

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Well I'm sorry, but if that means risking my own health on an undertested jab, then I'm afraid I'm going to take the selfish option.

At this point, they most certainly aren't "undertested". They've been through the usual clinical trial stages at the normal sizes of trial - only difference is that they've been expedited by means of a lot of investment and interest in bringing these to use as soon as possible.

Of course, they've since then been subject to rollout and monitoring (yellow card in the UK, VAERS n the US) that far exceeds any trial, which has confirmed the results of the trials, and in the case of AZ highlighted an adverse reaction so rare it wasn't flagged by the trials, with changes to usage stemming as a result. There are reasons people may not want a vaccine, but accusations of being undertested are nonsense
 

MikeWM

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At this point, they most certainly aren't "undertested". They've been through the usual clinical trial stages at the normal sizes of trial - only difference is that they've been expedited by means of a lot of investment and interest in bringing these to use as soon as possible.

But 'phase 3' of the trials, which monitor and report on potential medium-to-long term side effects and complications, have not been completed for any of the vaccines at this point - because by definition that requires time (1 to 2 years or more), and therefore cannot be expedited (unless a time machine is available). That's why they are all under 'emergency' authorisation rather than full authorisation.

The tests have been carried out on a usual number of people, yes, but we've not waited for the full results before proceeding to a general rollout, as would normally happen.

So while perhaps 'undertested' isn't quite the right description, they've certainly not been 'fully tested in the usual way', at least not yet. That may be considered a good thing - I'd sat that anyone who feels they want or need a vaccine for this disease should be able to get one without having to wait many more years for the trials to complete in the normal way - but equally this ought to be considered as a very strong argument against there being any coercion or mandation on people who do not wish to be vaccinated at this point, whether for this reason or other reasons.

Of course, they've since then been subject to rollout and monitoring (yellow card in the UK, VAERS n the US) that far exceeds any trial, which has confirmed the results of the trials, and in the case of AZ highlighted an adverse reaction so rare it wasn't flagged by the trials, with changes to usage stemming as a result. There are reasons people may not want a vaccine, but accusations of being undertested are nonsense

Yes, but there appear to be very serious backlogs in the data going into Vaers. While the data from our yellow card system does appear to be better at being up-to-date, I'm not at all sure that it is sufficently well-known or well-advertised to be picking up all the data it should be.
 

richardsun

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But 'phase 3' of the trials, which monitor and report on potential medium-to-long term side effects and complications, have not been completed for any of the vaccines at this point - because by definition that requires time (1 to 2 years or more), and therefore cannot be expedited (unless a time machine is available). That's why they are all under 'emergency' authorisation rather than full authorisation.

The tests have been carried out on a usual number of people, yes, but we've not waited for the full results before proceeding to a general rollout, as would normally happen.

So while perhaps 'undertested' isn't quite the right description, they've certainly not been 'fully tested in the usual way', at least not yet. That may be considered a good thing - I'd sat that anyone who feels they want or need a vaccine for this disease should be able to get one without having to wait many more years for the trials to complete in the normal way - but equally this ought to be considered as a very strong argument against there being any coercion or mandation on people who do not wish to be vaccinated at this point, whether for this reason or other reasons.



Yes, but there appear to be very serious backlogs in the data going into Vaers. While the data from our yellow card system does appear to be better at being up-to-date, I'm not at all sure that it is sufficently well-known or well-advertised to be picking up all the data it should be.
Thank you Mike WM, you've hit the nail on the head, exactly my thoughts. Give it another year or two and I might be happy to have the jab, although perhaps there'll be less need for it then.
 

richardsun

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The Pfizer jab has FULL authorisation in both the EU and US.
The UK's MHRA take on it (copied verbatim):

Regulation 174 Information for UK recipients
This medicinal product has been given authorisation for temporary supply by the UK Department of Health and Social Care and the Medicines & Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. It does not have a marketing authorisation, but this temporary authorisation grants permission for the medicine to be used for active immunization to prevent COVID-19 disease caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus in individuals aged 16 years of age and over.

Regulation 174... enables the licensing authority to temporarily authorise the supply of an unlicensed medicinal product for use in response to certain specific types of public health threat, including the suspected spread of pathogens.


I'm not personally convinced that the 'public health threat' is currently great enough to warrant the use of an unlicenced medicinal product. Perhaps it was a few months ago, particularly when the use of the product was only being targeted at those particularly at risk, rather than the population as a whole.
 

initiation

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this temporary authorisation grants permission for the medicine to be used for active immunization to prevent COVID-19 disease

Also worth noting this bit. The authorisation is to prevent the COVID-19 disease (not just testing positive for the virus). Implications for trying to use it in very low risk young people.
 

bramling

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Ah, Mrs Michael Gove helping to prepare the ground for her husband's 'vaccine passport' idea.

Someone has obviously realised they haven't whipped up enough fear and hatred of the unvaccinated yet to justify introducing 'passports', so we're seeing this exciting period of co-ordinated government and media propaganda, which they hope will lead to a general demand from those vaccinated for a system that discriminates against having to mix with the unvaccinated - and, as if by magic, they have something almost ready that will do exactly that! What a coincidence :rolleyes:

Well there has to be something for the foaming mob to latch onto, they’re probably getting bored with it having been masks for the last year.
 

DustyBin

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That was their call. I didn't ask/coerce/force them to. The Virus may very well have run its course regardless.

The thing to remember as well is that the vulnerable were offered it first and it makes sense (in my opinion) for them to take it. The majority took it willingly as on balance it benefitted them. I’m not clear though as to how I will benefit from taking it when offered; that’s not to say I’ll refuse but to be honest I’d rather not take it unless there is a clear benefit to somebody (be it me or the more vulnerable). I get the impression that the ‘zero covid’ dream (or nightmare) lives on, and that’s where this is leading.
 

Jonny

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First thought, the way the outbreak in India was presented had the "look and feel" that it was going to be used to push vaccination. They were going for the (perceived) guilt angle. I would say that it is playing out that way now.

Yet we also have articles like this, squarely looking to pin any blame for 21/6 being delayed on those 'selfish idiots' who don't want a vaccine.


I am not the selfish one. I am young and have very little risk of serious illness from covid. I have been forced to sacrifice the last year of my life to protect the vulnerable who are now essentially fully protected via vaccination. It is those who want to control everyone else's lives who are selfish.


Anyway....Matt Hancock press conference at 5pm...

Ah, Mrs Michael Gove helping to prepare the ground for her husband's 'vaccine passport' idea.

Someone has obviously realised they haven't whipped up enough fear and hatred of the unvaccinated yet to justify introducing 'passports', so we're seeing this exciting period of co-ordinated government and media propaganda, which they hope will lead to a general demand from those vaccinated for a system that discriminates against having to mix with the unvaccinated - and, as if by magic, they have something almost ready that will do exactly that! What a coincidence :rolleyes:

I’ve got to say, I’m finding it difficult to dismiss your theory!

It is indeed a credible theory - and she cites Andrew Lloyd-Webber, who is talking outside of his area of expertise (putting on shows, which to be fair he is good at). In fact the article almost reads like a rant. That in itself shows that deep down, she knows she is short of good reasons.

She also downplays those who have concerns; I would agree that some of them are exaggerated but many of them do have a point. There is also the principle that people, at least in the UK, generally do not take medication to benefit others. That is the main issue, it is like a line in the sand - physically easy to cross but causes so many problems.

She also downplays the risk of the vaccine - for starters no pharmacological treatment is 100% safe, there have been some reports of side effects...

I don't think it inserts a chip or changes my DNA.
However, I am aware that this type of vaccine (mRNA) has never been licensed for human use before.
The vaccines have no long term test data, because there hasn't been a 'long term' - this part of the testing process simply cannot be accelerated, which is why all the vaccines are still within the stage 3 trial phase, and have only been given temporary authorisation for emergency use (is it still an 'emergency'?)
As a fit and healthy bloke in my 40s, tell me why am I being stupid or irresponsible for declining this jab, compared to taking my chances against a rapidly dwindling virus which I have a 99.999+% chance of surviving?
You are not selfish - and decline is the correct word. The word refuse is loaded with emotional baggage that decline does not have. Also, it is not too hard to modify something with RNA such that it splices into DNA; all you need is reverse transcriptase (it's a class of enzymes) which the current RNA vaccines don't have (ironically, wild-type coronaviruses do).

Because you are getting the vaccine to protect others, innit.

Not my view of course but the standard stock reply that is seen on social media for your type of question.

Perhaps that is the issue - they think that the public somehow cannot be trusted, but they can. Their patronising approach only serves to antagonise some people.

Eh


Quite. Look at the sticker they give you to wear when you get the jab (mine went straight in the bin) and the Facebook frames you are encouraged to put on your profile.

I am also very tempted to block any friend who posts their vaccination card on social media. Though I realised if I do, I won't have many left :D
Ah, the virtue signalling crowd. Sometimes I just want to vomit... or laugh... or both.

The thing to remember as well is that the vulnerable were offered it first and it makes sense (in my opinion) for them to take it. The majority took it willingly as on balance it benefitted them. I’m not clear though as to how I will benefit from taking it when offered; that’s not to say I’ll refuse but to be honest I’d rather not take it unless there is a clear benefit to somebody (be it me or the more vulnerable). I get the impression that the ‘zero covid’ dream (or nightmare) lives on, and that’s where this is leading.

"Protecting others" sounds good, but I think it is a line that the public should not be asked to cross when it comes to pharmacological treatment. Face coverings were sailing close to the wind, the current mandatory testing (for the UK government) is probably a breach of the enabling act used (IMO the Government was too lazy to find another one) due to the intrusive nature of the sampling. However, putting something into people's bodies for the benefit of others is a completely different matter and in the case of the general public, it is a line that should not be crossed.
 

Ediswan

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There is also the principle that people, at least in the UK, generally do not take medication to benefit others. That is the main issue, it is like a line in the sand - physically easy to cross but causes so many problems.
Disagree. If you want to draw a line, draw it at compelling people to be vaccinated.
 

Eyersey468

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Seems the Andrew Lloyd Webber quote I posted yesterday where he compared those refusing the vaccine to drink drivers stirred debate on both sides. The BBC live link is here.

Some may think Mark is being way over the top but like i've already said, it's his choice and I respect that.



Rachel on the other hand is a disgrace and it's sad to see such views, it's no wonder people are so are divided. Refuse a vaccine and you should stay at home with no benefits or no wages. Basically you should be left to rot. o_O
I agree about Rachel, so what are people meant to live off then?
 

nedchester

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Clearly not. People shouldn't be bullied into getting it, which is what seems to be happening. Its a dangerous road to go down
Don't agree with compulsory vaccines nor domestic vaccine passports but if you do not get the vaccine when offered then you are foolish and if you get Covid as a result then tough s**t.

Those of us who have had the vaccine shouldn't be restricted because you have some silly reason not to have it.
 

DustyBin

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Don't agree with compulsory vaccines nor domestic vaccine passports but if you do not get the vaccine when offered then you are foolish and if you get Covid as a result then tough s**t.

Those of us who have had the vaccine shouldn't be restricted because you have some silly reason not to have it.

May I suggest you take aim at the government, their advisors and the media as they are the ones pushing for and implementing restrictions, not the people declining the vaccine....
 

kez19

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Don't agree with compulsory vaccines nor domestic vaccine passports but if you do not get the vaccine when offered then you are foolish and if you get Covid as a result then tough s**t.

Those of us who have had the vaccine shouldn't be restricted because you have some silly reason not to have it.


Are we living in the twilight zone here? Why should you or I care if someone has had or not been vaccinated? Personal choice but I guess toe the line with media without questions is a good way around things ain’t it?

I have been vaccinated I didn’t want it but talk of a third dose now they can take a hike!

Oddly enough it’s politicians media and SAGE holding us back but expect karma soon on them

No one is foolish for not taking it but you seem naive for taking it all for face value, whilst our media lap up the fear (does it not occur to you that the media are in on this as even if it was a theory it’s not far from it in my mind), but still they don’t live with the consequences as we do (think on that too)

Bit of advice think before you speak as it may come back and bite (now you wouldn’t want anything to happen in the future do we?), I say all this as an open mind but if you don’t change your tune it’ll come back in one way shape or form.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

May I suggest you take aim at the government, their advisors and the media as they are the ones pushing for and implementing restrictions, not the people declining the vaccine....

Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Clearly not. People shouldn't be bullied into getting it, which is what seems to be happening. Its a dangerous road to go down

Agree no one should be bullied into it but still if it was meth and things like that the usual roll out of self inflicted but because it’s COVID you must have it.

I never thought in 2021 we would head this way, let alone media now calling people who don’t want it names but still though it’s all about a virus but thinking about it the messaging as clear as day is.. (drum roll please), control!
 
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nedchester

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Are we living in the twilight zone here? Why should you or I care if someone has had or not been vaccinated? Personal choice but I guess toe the line with media without questions is a good way around things ain’t it?

I have been vaccinated I didn’t want it but talk of a third dose now they can take a hike!

Oddly enough it’s politicians media and SAGE holding us back but expect karma soon on them

No one is foolish for not taking it but you seem naive for taking it all for face value, whilst our media lap up the fear (does it not occur to you that the media are in on this as even if it was a theory it’s not far from it in my mind), but still they don’t live with the consequences as we do (think on that too)

Bit of advice think before you speak as it may come back and bite (now you wouldn’t want anything to happen in the future do we?), I say all this as an open mind but if you don’t change your tune it’ll come back in one way shape or form.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Agree no one should be bullied into it but still if it was meth and things like that the usual roll out of self inflicted but because it’s COVID you must have it.

I never thought in 2021 we would head this way, let alone media now calling people who don’t want it names but still though it’s all about a virus but thinking about it the messaging as clear as day is.. (drum roll please), control!
I don't care if you have been vaccinated, I don't even care that as a result of you not getting vaccinated you get Covid and end up in hospital and die.

What I do care is if, because of the actions of those refusing to take the vaccine, infections, hospitalisations and deaths rise amongst the same group. This would result in the Government not continuing with the roadmap. OK easy to blame to Government if that happened but those who have made the choice not to take the vaccine will bear some responsibility. Choices lead to consequences. The Government has a duty to protect the health of all citizens regardless of their choices whether it be refusal to take vaccine, decision to smoke cigarettes etc.

I agree that the media messaging regarding fear and I as much as anybody want to get out of this thing and return to normal on 21st June.
 

kez19

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I don't care if you have been vaccinated, I don't even care that as a result of you not getting vaccinated you get Covid and end up in hospital and die.

What I do care is if, because of the actions of those refusing to take the vaccine, infections, hospitalisations and deaths rise amongst the same group. This would result in the Government not continuing with the roadmap. OK easy to blame to Government if that happened but those who have made the choice not to take the vaccine will bear some responsibility. Choices lead to consequences. The Government has a duty to protect the health of all citizens regardless of their choices whether it be refusal to take vaccine, decision to smoke cigarettes etc.

I agree that the media messaging regarding fear and I as much as anybody want to get out of this thing and return to normal on 21st June.

You say you don’t care but you clearly do, you getting riled because of other people’s actions now, is that your thoughts or you been told to do so by the media, again seems clear media, but still let’s cascade everyone with the same brush eh?

I said I had been vaccinated to prove a point but again you said you don’t care so why bother?

I see the too kind movement of 2020 has flew over you but still I see in general society doesn’t really care about anyone unless it’s the “me me I’m too important” approach but still enjoy life make it as you want.

Edit to add to this: I have had COVID last June and it was only MILD, just tiredness fatigue but prior had joint/muscle pain and coughs but thank you for your consideration that even though I have been vaccinated you want me in hospital and possibly die, thank you for contacting the COVID hotline have a nice day! Your thoughts like this are the problems in all this that you can’t see straight but hell mend you.

Choices leads to consequences but we all have our own minds to do what we want to it, yet I don’t see people questioning the roles of our politicians SAGE and media with scrutiny but that’s all good though as long as you feel you have the right to knock people for not being vaccinated, yep this is a 2 tier society happening live and in action and your post proves that point.

You want normal by 21st June? Don’t we all but that’s down to the politicians if they let us, so what happens then if it was pushed back? Would you be on your high horse again blaming those not vaccinated or those in power? My guess you would aim at the non vaccinated once more but still believe everything from media as face value as I don’t trust them, let alone politicians or SAGE as it’s clear they are the ones benefiting not us but you keep your head in the sand than look at the bigger picture then get back at me
 
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kristiang85

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What I do care is if, because of the actions of those refusing to take the vaccine, infections, hospitalisations and deaths rise amongst the same group. This would result in the Government not continuing with the roadmap. OK easy to blame to Government if that happened but those who have made the choice not to take the vaccine will bear some responsibility. Choices lead to consequences. The Government has a duty to protect the health of all citizens regardless of their choices whether it be refusal to take vaccine, decision to smoke cigarettes etc.

No, the decision to 'punish' the whole population for the very small minority who are less inclined to take the vacccine for many reasons is solely on the government. It is not a reasonable decision, and crosses a very uncomfortable line for a free society. We are not dealing with something like Ebola here.

If 10-15% aren't vaccinated, which is probably what we will end up with as take up is very high, then that is likely to be enough for herd immunity. And you can probably assume that 20% of those unvaccinated will have natural immunity to COVID anyway, at the very very least.

What would be wrong is if someone made a choice to not get vaccinated and then blamed the government if they themselves got ill - but I don't think anybody would do that.

You are falling for the government rhetoric that if the opening of 21st June is delayed then it is your fellow citizens' fault and not their's. Divide and rule, and all that...
 
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