Great British Railways: Thoughts, predictions, speculation

[zwk500]

It's why I love this Forum always dealing with the important matters!

But, in an attempt at a defence, to be fair there isn't that much to go on until the white paper itself appears apart from the broad strokes from the media stories which, to a great extent, had been trailed a while in advance (I'm not sure I've read anything 'new' so far!).

And when it does get going, it'll probably need splitting into at least 5 separate threads

Personally what I'm most interested in (apart from staffing levels at whatever NR becomes) is whether the new concession structure allows more flexible timetabling & Engineering access as this new body will have a 'bigger picture' and potentially the authority to implement it.

 

[yorksrob]

It's why I love this Forum always dealing with the important matters!

But, in an attempt at a defence, to be fair there isn't that much to go on until the white paper itself appears apart from the broad strokes from the media stories which, to a great extent, had been trailed a while in advance (I'm not sure I've read anything 'new' so far!).

Indeed.

There will likely need to be some pushback to make sure that the 10 - 20% funding cut doesn't affect the basic quality of the service.

I think that as passengers, we should be pushing for something to protect a basic level of service. Something along the lines of:

• A base line service frequency on all passenger routes
• The length of the service day on all routes.

Something along these lines was included in the privatisation legislation, so this needs to be carried on and perhaps codified, i.e I'm not sure it's enough to just say that the DfT will specify a basic frequency because I don't trust the Gmt not to make damaging cuts.

Perhaps the basic service frequency needs to be "hourly or pre COVID timetable if less than hourly" and "first and last trains to be as pre COVID".

 

[Jozhua]

National Rail or Network Rail would have been a better name. But anyway, my biggest worry is the budget cuts that are going to seemingly come in to effect very soon.

 

[zwk500]

There will likely need to be some pushback to make sure that the 10 - 20% funding cut doesn't affect the basic quality of the service.
I think that as passengers, we should be pushing for something to protect a basic level of service.

Agreed.

Something along these lines was included in the privatisation legislation, so this needs to be carried on and perhaps codified, i.e I'm not sure it's enough to just say that the DfT will specify a basic frequency because I don't trust the Gmt not to make damaging cuts.

If it was in legislation, by definition it's codified. And any legislation can be changed by any government. I do share your scepticism.

Perhaps the basic service frequency needs to be "hourly or pre COVID timetable if less than hourly" and "first and last trains to be as pre COVID".

Travel patterns will have changed markedly. We need to set new base service levels according to how people are travelling and will be travelling, not how people used to travel. The focus should be on an overall network, running fewer trains but better timed for connectivity will be more cost effective and therefore offer better value for money to the customer.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed.

If it was in legislation, by definition it's codified. And any legislation can be changed by any government. I do share your scepticism.

Travel patterns will have changed markedly. We need to set new base service levels according to how people are travelling and will be travelling, not how people used to travel. The focus should be on an overall network, running fewer trains but better timed for connectivity will be more cost effective and therefore offer better value for money to the customer.

I agree but with the following proviso's:

• Whatever the service patterns of the future, a clockface timetable will still be desireable for leisure and irregular commuting. This will need to be a part of the passenger railway's offer.
• Similarly, having late first and early last trains will limit leisure travel and inhibit the recovery of the passenger railway.

Both of the above need to be at the very least, no worse than before covid for the railway to successfully rebound.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finding it ironically amusing that the thread on the biggest change to the rail industry in this country for 30 years has degenerated into a discussion about branding and nomenclature.

I've put in a couple of separate speculative threads for that and for fares discussion now I'm on the laptop rather than my phone:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-british-railways-livery-branding-and-appearance.217495/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-revenue-neutral-fare-reform-possible.217496/

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Finding it ironically amusing that the thread on the biggest change to the rail industry in this country for 30 years has degenerated into a discussion about branding and nomenclature.

In software development this is known as 'bikeshedding': http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/#the-bikshed-email

Parkinson shows how you can go in to the board of directors and
get approval for building a multi-million or even billion dollar
atomic power plant, but if you want to build a bike shed you will
be tangled up in endless discussions.

Parkinson explains that this is because an atomic plant is so vast,
so expensive and so complicated that people cannot grasp it, and
rather than try, they fall back on the assumption that somebody
else checked all the details before it got this far.

A bike shed on the other hand. Anyone can build one of those over
a weekend, and still have time to watch the game on TV. So no
matter how well prepared, no matter how reasonable you are with
your proposal, somebody will seize the chance to show that he is
doing his job, that he is paying attention, that he is *here*.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Travel patterns will have changed markedly. We need to set new base service levels according to how people are travelling and will be travelling, not how people used to travel. The focus should be on an overall network, running fewer trains but better timed for connectivity will be more cost effective and therefore offer better value for money to the customer.

I would absolutely agree that a "Great-Britain-Takt" would be a desirable thing to look at.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2021 ==

Indeed.

There will likely need to be some pushback to make sure that the 10 - 20% funding cut doesn't affect the basic quality of the service.

It depends what you mean by "quality".

A lot of money could be saved by closing ticket offices, removing dispatchers and DOO. Our railway is incredibly staff heavy compared with say DB or SBB.

Other options would include cutting frequencies but running much longer trains. That requires investment on e.g. platform lengthening, but once it's done the savings could be considerable.

(Note: I don't comment on whether those are the right thing to do or not, and this thread is not a place to discuss their advantages and disadvantages, but they are ways in which very substantial sums could be saved)

 

[ScotGG]

Turn up and go is a well known driver of usage. Less frequent but longer trains will drive people away.

DOO alongside unstaffed stations is a green light to fare evasion.

 

[yorksrob]

A lot of money could be saved by closing ticket offices, removing dispatchers and DOO.

Other options would include cutting frequencies but running much longer trains. That requires investment on e.g. platform lengthening, but once it's done the savings could be considerable.

(Note: I don't comment on whether those are the right thing to do or not, and this thread is not a place to discuss their advantages and disadvantages, but they are ways in which very substantial sums could be saved)

Indeed. I'm talking specifically about the service frequency and day length that needs to be maintained.

Ticket offices is an interesting one. Some of the smaller stations, I'd rather go down the road of combining with a shop or something, as Merseyrail do if possible, than closing.

 

[2192]

TRAINS.

All right until someone puts on RRB's.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Finding it ironically amusing that the thread on the biggest change to the rail industry in this country for 30 years has degenerated into a discussion about branding and nomenclature.

I was thinking H&H Rail might work, seeing as it will be fronted by Messrs Hendy and Haines.
I don't think we have much of a clue about what the White Paper contains, we've just been given the froth the government has chosen to leak to the media.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I'm talking specifically about the service frequency and day length that needs to be maintained.

Ticket offices is an interesting one. Some of the smaller stations, I'd rather go down the road of combining with a shop or something, as Merseyrail do if possible, than closing.

I've chucked in another thread for that:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-british-railways-how-can-money-be-saved.217497/

I'll reply there.

 

[zuriblue]

or my favourite, Going Nowhere Except Retford!

Great Way Round?

Then again when I was a kid BR was known as British Snail.

Personally I think we would need a common livery. Perhaps a base of BS 381C 114.

 

[coppercapped]

Finding it ironically amusing that the thread on the biggest change to the rail industry in this country for 30 years has degenerated into a discussion about branding and nomenclature.

Quite!

A host of questions come to mind - and none of them are to do with colours, typefaces or the times of the last trains...

If the railway group/department/whateveritiscalled at the DfT transfers to the new guiding mind as a whole - will they bring their policies and mindsets with them? What will change in the instructions they are given? Will they remain civil servants or become railway people? How many will want to transfer from 'procedures and process' to 'product'? Will some of them even be able to? How many people are we talking about?

If their functions are simply transferred to the new body - how will they interact with Network Rail and the Train Operators? Andrew Haines is emphatic on improving the operating skills of the railway - how does this sit with what appears to be at the moment, at least from the outside, as a body of second guessers?

How will the new organisation ensure that its very presence 'adds value'? Will the changes - of themselves - result in a railway that offers better value for money in all its endeavours? How will the emphasis be changed to concentrate on product delivery rather than maintaining a supply of reports keeping the paymasters in the DfT and Treasury or the regulators in the ORR happy? How will the rump of the DfT change? Will it or can it? Or will the centre continue to try to concentrate power as it historically always has done?

Questions, questions...

 

[24Grange]

Something for the new body to think about. Holding connections for a mainline train, would be nice! Express pulls in, people get out and rush across the footbridge to hear the "bleep bleep" doors shut and the branch line unit speed off, usually 3/4 empty.Leaving express load of connectors to wait 1/2 hour ( or longer) for the next one - this is done by different TOC's at present, as well as connections of the same TOC. Doesn't make any sense. Unless the delay repay payments are worth more than the passengers tickets, which are " in the bank" as they are a captive audience for the next train?

It would be nice to have an overview of the whole passenger experience as well - catering anyone?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Something for the new body to think about. Holding connections for a mainline train, would be nice! Express pulls in, people get out and rush across the footbridge to hear the "bleep bleep" doors shut and the branch line unit speed off, usually 3/4 empty.Leaving express load of connectors to wait 1/2 hour ( or longer) for the next one - this is done by different TOC's at present, as well as connections of the same TOC. Doesn't make any sense. Unless the delay repay payments are worth more than the passengers tickets, which are " in the bank" as they are a captive audience for the next train?

It would be nice to have an overview of the whole passenger experience as well - catering anyone?

This is especially true for the poor souls at Grove Park who always seem to miss their Bromley North train by 20 seconds and end up watching an empty class 466 sail merrily away.

 

[BayPaul]

Something for the new body to think about. Holding connections for a mainline train, would be nice! Express pulls in, people get out and rush across the footbridge to hear the "bleep bleep" doors shut and the branch line unit speed off, usually 3/4 empty.Leaving express load of connectors to wait 1/2 hour ( or longer) for the next one - this is done by different TOC's at present, as well as connections of the same TOC. Doesn't make any sense. Unless the delay repay payments are worth more than the passengers tickets, which are " in the bank" as they are a captive audience for the next train?

It would be nice to have an overview of the whole passenger experience as well - catering anyone?

It sounds nice, but the challenge is whether it screws something else up elsewhere. I agree with the situation you describe, but when you need to hold a train more than a couple of minutes, in the vast majority (but not all) cases, it will mess some other connection / return trip / path on another line etc.

 

[yorksrob]

This is especially true for the poor souls at Grove Park who always seem to miss their Bromley North train by 20 seconds and end up watching an empty class 466 sail merrily away.

Yes, it's hard to see how the old Bromley shuttle's going to get in the way of anything if it's a bit late.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, it's hard to see how the old Bromley shuttle's going to get in the way of anything if it's a bit late.

Should the trains depart on time or should they run late ?

 

[yorksrob]

Should the trains depart on time or should they run late ?

I think that if the service from London is a bit late into Grove Park, and waiting won't impact the next departure from Bromley North, I think that the train should in this instance be allowed to depart late.

 

[Annetts key]

Internal railways communication:

Media speculation about reform of rail industry

Dear colleagues

Some of you might have read in this weekend's media some speculation that the Government is just about to publish its plans (what they call in the trade a 'White Paper') setting out how they plan to reform the rail industry.

This is being referred to as the 'Williams/Shapps White Paper' after the Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps MP, and the review of the rail industry that's been going on for some time by the businessman Keith Williams, who used to be the chair of British Airways and is now chair of Royal Mail.

We can't comment on the detail of what might or might not be in the Government's proposals, but we do all know that the rail industry needs to change. This is why we're already working hard with you on how we can do that internally to reduce waste, reduce inefficiencies and work better with our operators.

We are looking forward to the imminent publication of the White Paper and when that is published we will learn more about what Government is proposing for the structure of the industry, how it will be set up and who will be involved in that.

Once the White Paper is published there will be a message to all colleagues, a Q&A document and a link to the White Paper itself published on MyConnect. We may also host a specific 'Teams Live' chat to talk through it….we'll just have to wait and see what it says.

 

[Gareth]

According to The Guardian, the name for this new organisation will be 'Great British Railways'. Is there any need for the 'Great' bit? No doubt the Union Jack flag will be plastered all over the new livery as well.

I don't know. It looks nice enough on British Airways. As a starting principal, I wouldn't care one way or another if the Union Jack was incorporated in the livery. But then again, if it upsets all the right people, I'm all for it.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that if the service from London is a bit late into Grove Park, and waiting won't impact the next departure from Bromley North, I think that the train should in this instance be allowed to depart late.

But the delays will compound over time with such a short trip you will start tipping the balance. Trains are expected to run on time. We don't know what everyone is doing and other people may have other connections to make. A minute or so late might cause a delay getting your but home. A minute late one side means the next trip is going to also run late. What about those coming from Bromley and wanting a connection at Grove Park ?

Another problem is how you communicate the delay from an inbound service potentially coming in to platform 5 and getting the message to the Driver on platform 1

You also need to consider that which services are acceptable to delay. Why would a delay be acceptable at one station but not at another ?

 

[Gareth]

I know. But I feel it's so commonly dropped from the name that choosing to include it sends a pretty clear message, and considering the connotations of the word "great", it's not a message that I agree with.

Further to my previous post, like some others, I'd have preferred just British Rail, as it's less clunky than Great British Railways. But this comment has convinced me that the "Great" has to be there (nothing personal to the author, of course).

 

[yorksrob]

But the delays will compound over time with such a short trip you will start tipping the balance. Trains are expected to run on time. We don't know what everyone is doing and other people may have other connections to make. A minute or so late might cause a delay getting your but home. A minute late one side means the next trip is going to also run late. What about those coming from Bromley and wanting a connection at Grove Park ?

Another problem is how you communicate the delay from an inbound service potentially coming in to platform 5 and getting the message to the Driver on platform 1

You also need to consider that which services are acceptable to delay. Why would a delay be acceptable at one station but not at another ?

Quite, which is why the driver would need to take account of the trip back.

This is the Bromley North branch we're talking about though. the train seemed to hang around at the terminus for quite a while when I used it.

 

[Annetts key]

Other ideas..

BRR - Britain's Railways Restored

BRB - (look this one up if you don’t know )

BBBR - Boris’s Brash Bi-mode Railway (Also Brought Back British Railways)

BIR - British Incorporated Railways

BAAR or BAR - British And Associated Railways

HMRS - Her Majesty’s Railway System

 

[Gareth]

The last one would no only upset all the right people but give them potentially fatal aneurisms. I feel that would just be a bit too cruel.

Also, it sounds a bit too much like a cross between a civil service department and a Bond film.

 

[Glenn1969]

www.railnews.co.uk/news/2021/05/17-imminent-williams-review-could-spark.html

 

[ScottGallagher]

British Rail without Great , enough time has passed for it to be used again. Politics will get in the way, I always thought Network Rail should have been called British Rail after the railtrack collapse.