Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite. True, there is a national network of chargers owned by many different charging companies. Same as dinosaur juice stations.

However, only some take PAYG debit card payments, i.e. you turn up, plug in, tap your card and go.

I believe the Government is pursuing a policy that all must accept contactless, so if that isn't yet resolved (and the ones I've seen have had the contactless symbol on them) it will be soon.

 

[py_megapixel]

What advantage would that bring over a credit/debit card?

Not everyone has a credit/debit card.
Additionally I was assuming that you would pay your standard home electricity tariff on EV charging as well, making the experience more predictable/seamless.

There is a convenience benefit to a separate card as well: you can leave the card in the car at all times, so you don't have to worry about whether you have it with you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not everyone has a credit/debit card.

Exactly how many owners of electric cars don't have a credit or debit card?

I would venture it is actually 0.

There will no doubt be some people running old bangers who live on cash alone. But this isn't old bangers, it's EVs. They are not cheap.

There is a convenience benefit to a separate card as well: you can leave the card in the car at all times, so you don't have to worry about whether you have it with you.

Why would you ever leave the house, unless going for a very local walk, without your wallet or payment-capable phone? You never know when you might need to call a taxi if you trip and hurt yourself, for example.

 

[AndrewE]

Exactly how many owners of electric cars don't have a credit or debit card?

I would venture it is actually 0.

There will no doubt be some people running old bangers who live on cash alone. But this isn't old bangers, it's EVs. They are not cheap.



Why would you ever leave the house, unless going for a very local walk, without your wallet or payment-capable phone? You never know when you might need to call a taxi if you trip and hurt yourself, for example.

How about "Because I haven't got one?" So I can't even take one on holiday, or on a day out in the UK. I can pay for things in many other ways, but I fear that this will be another thing that discriminates against people who don't want to be tracked everywhere, or to be on call, or who don't feel they have to have a computer in their pocket all the time.

 

[AM9]

Not everyone has a credit/debit card.
Additionally I was assuming that you would pay your standard home electricity tariff on EV charging as well, making the experience more predictable/seamless.

There is a convenience benefit to a separate card as well: you can leave the card in the car at all times, so you don't have to worry about whether you have it with you.

I doubt that accessing a high power charging point would be charged at domestic rates, - especially as domestic rates are capped by the government. As a minimum, there would be a surcharge that goes towards the capital and maintenance costs of the remote network. There's profit to be made from charging EVs and given their attitude to customer loyalty to date, I doubt that they will consider it worth paying for with reduced profit from charging points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Taking this off at a slight tangent but still EV-related, many if not most families have 2 cars, one a larger "mile muncher" for going on holiday etc, and often a smaller "runaround" that never goes past the next town. Often this is a cheap, older car, but sometimes it's not, and there are often attractive offers, e.g. inclusive packages, involving newer small cars like the Ford KA and the Vauxhall Adam (the Corsa has now seen some "model inflation" and is really now what the Astra was 20 years ago).

Should consideration be given to launching cheaper, lower-range EVs only intended to go up to perhaps 40mph, and aim these at the runaround? The petrol "micro-cars" popular in France, though perhaps slightly larger to allow for 4 seats and a small boot, might be a reasonable model to look at.

Because of the smaller battery (you'd only need a range of maybe 50 miles at most) these could easily fully charge overnight off a normal 13A socket. And perhaps cheaper battery tech could be used.

Clearly manufacturers are mostly favouring larger, more expensive cars as they are more profitable, a bit like housebuilders like 4-bed detached houses. But could the Government provide incentives?

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't understand why there is an obsession with being able to charge the vehicle from a standard socket, when "level 2" AC charging points are very cheap in the context of either a brand new car or a brand new house (IMO all new houses constructed with a driveway should be fitted as standard with an EV charger for each car the driveway can accommodate)]

Of course some upgrades to the national grid will be needed to provide those, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[DustyBin]

Taking this off at a slight tangent but still EV-related, many if not most families have 2 cars, one a larger "mile muncher" for going on holiday etc, and often a smaller "runaround" that never goes past the next town. Often this is a cheap, older car, but sometimes it's not, and there are often attractive offers, e.g. inclusive packages, involving newer small cars like the Ford KA and the Vauxhall Adam (the Corsa has now seen some "model inflation" and is really now what the Astra was 20 years ago).

Should consideration be given to launching cheaper, lower-range EVs only intended to go up to perhaps 40mph, and aim these at the runaround? The petrol "micro-cars" popular in France, though perhaps slightly larger to allow for 4 seats and a small boot, might be a reasonable model to look at.

Because of the smaller battery (you'd only need a range of maybe 50 miles at most) these could easily fully charge overnight off a normal 13A socket. And perhaps cheaper battery tech could be used.

Clearly manufacturers are mostly favouring larger, more expensive cars as they are more profitable, a bit like housebuilders like 4-bed detached houses. But could the Government provide incentives?

In principle yes; start with something like the Aygo (and it’s french cousins) which get scary at high speed anyway. It would have to be able to do 60-70mph (eventually!) though I think to have wide appeal. But for some people this would work I’m sure.

 

[The Lad]

Was that the concept of the GWizz?
I vaguely remember some (product placement?) in a TV production where one started a journey in Central London and finished in the tens.

 

[ABB125]

In principle yes; start with something like the Aygo (and it’s french cousins) which get scary at high speed anyway. It would have to be able to do 60-70mph (eventually!) though I think to have wide appeal. But for some people this would work I’m sure.

I wouldn't necessarily say a Toyota Aygo (or equivalent) is scary at high speed. Exciting, maybe! I'm determined that, in the next year or two, I'll be going on a trip which involves driving through Germany, to test the speed capabilities of said cars.

I agree with the point about small electric cars.

 

[Bald Rick]

Should consideration be given to launching cheaper, lower-range EVs only intended to go up to perhaps 40mph, and aim these at the runaround?

Like the Renault Zoë?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like the Renault Zoë?

Sort of, but the Zoe has a 245 mile range and a top speed of around 85mph, so it's much more capable (and thus much more expensive to build) than what I envisaged. I'm more thinking something a few steps up from a milk-float (but looking like a car) rather than a "full-spec" but small electric.

 

[paul1609]

I don't understand why there is an obsession with being able to charge the vehicle from a standard socket, when "level 2" AC charging points are very cheap in the context of either a brand new car or a brand new house (IMO all new houses constructed with a driveway should be fitted as standard with an EV charger for each car the driveway can accommodate)]

Of course some upgrades to the national grid will be needed to provide those, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility.

Its not upgrades to the National Grid that are the major problems its upgrades to the distribution networks. If for instance you live on a housing estate think of new or enlarged transformers and most roads needing to be dug up for new cables. Phasing out of gas heating is the major problem.

 

[507021]

I think until the charging infrastructure becomes more widespread and reliable, then my answer to the question is yes.

I've watched a number of Ian Seabrook's HubNut videos featuring road tests of various electric cars, and I have to say while the cars themselves give me confidence, the lack of charging points and their patchy reliability really puts me off. I'm particularly keen to buy a Renault "New 5" or a Volkswagen ID.3 at some point, but not until there's a significant improvement in the infrastructure to support electric cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think until the charging infrastructure becomes more widespread and reliable, then my answer to the question is yes.

I've watched a number of Ian Seabrook's HubNut videos featuring road tests of various electric cars, and I have to say while the cars themselves give me confidence, the lack of charging points and their patchy reliability really puts me off. I'm particularly keen to buy a Renault "New 5" or a Volkswagen ID.3 at some point, but not until there's a significant improvement in the infrastructure to support electric cars.

I actually think the charging infrastructure would be ready for me, to be honest. I like to take decent breaks when I do long journeys anyway.

The thing that's not ready is the price of the kind of vehicle I want (a family sized SUV or estate), but by the time I'm ready to change the Kuga (2-4 years or so) the Kia e-Niro might be at the right sort of price level for me used. Assuming I fit, which isn't a given due to the size of me, I'll have to try one at some point.

The ideal would be if Ford would hurry up and get an e-Kuga out this year (meaning 2-3 year old models available by the time I change). There is a PHEV with a 35 mile range, but not a full electric. I'm very happy with it and so would have the same again but electric this time.

 

[507021]

I actually think the charging infrastructure would be ready for me, to be honest. I like to take decent breaks when I do long journeys anyway.

The thing that's not ready is the price of the kind of vehicle I want (a family sized SUV or estate), but by the time I'm ready to change the Kuga (2-4 years or so) the Kia e-Niro might be at the right sort of price level for me used. Assuming I fit, which isn't a given due to the size of me, I'll have to try one at some point.

That's fair enough. For me, if I'm driving long distance by myself then I prefer to get it over and done with, so I like to keep breaks to a minimum if I can.

Price is very good point. I've got a large family so we need big cars (we currently have three!), but I'd imagine for me driving to work, the local shops or visiting family/friends in/around Merseyside something like a "New 5", ID.3 or even the Dacia Spring would be ideal. My main steer at the moment is a Rover 75, which I think is a fabulous car to drive and own, but it doesn't half like a drink!

 

[Bald Rick]

I think until the charging infrastructure becomes more widespread and reliable, then my answer to the question is yes.

I've watched a number of Ian Seabrook's HubNut videos featuring road tests of various electric cars, and I have to say while the cars themselves give me confidence, the lack of charging points and their patchy reliability really puts me off. I'm particularly keen to buy a Renault "New 5" or a Volkswagen ID.3 at some point, but not until there's a significant improvement in the infrastructure to support electric cars.

Of all the people I know with pure EVs, and it’s quite a few, not one of them has ever had a problem with finding a charger when they needed one. This includes two who regularly drive up to, and around, the Highlands and islands of Scotland.

 

[507021]

Of all the people I know with pure EVs, and it’s quite a few, not one of them has ever had a problem with finding a charger when they needed one. This includes two who regularly drive up to, and around, the Highlands and islands of Scotland.

Funnily enough, Ian Seabrook's road test of the Jaguar i-Pace back in mid-2019 involved driving to Scotland and back from the Midlands, and the level and reliability of EV charging infrastructure in Scotland was noticeably better than the areas of England he drove through. I recall him having at least two or three issues when trying to charge the i-Pace at various locations in England, but none whatsoever in Scotland.

 

[david1212]

Not everyone has a credit/debit card.
Additionally I was assuming that you would pay your standard home electricity tariff on EV charging as well, making the experience more predictable/seamless.

There is a convenience benefit to a separate card as well: you can leave the card in the car at all times, so you don't have to worry about whether you have it with you.

...
Why would you ever leave the house, unless going for a very local walk, without your wallet or payment-capable phone? ...

Intentionally no but easily done if in a hurry perhaps a family emergency.

Of course now you could be low on fossil fuel but for most cars 1/4 tank is 100+ miles. Even with advances in the real world as against laboratory / test track 1/4 battery charge could be less than 40 miles. A card in the car mitigates the risk.

Another risk is the credit/debit card or payment-capable phone not being accepted for some reason.

 

[DustyBin]

I wouldn't necessarily say a Toyota Aygo (or equivalent) is scary at high speed. Exciting, maybe! I'm determined that, in the next year or two, I'll be going on a trip which involves driving through Germany, to test the speed capabilities of said cars.

I agree with the point about small electric cars.

Ok I was exaggerating there but as you say they keep you on your toes when pushed! We need video evidence of you achieving treble figures!

 

[seagull]

Interesting opinion piece in Auto Express:

“Our rush to electric cars may harm the environment and snuff out valuable alternatives”

Steve Sutcliffe sees the accelerated mass adoption of electric cars having unforeseen environmental costs and smothering technologies with real short-term value...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting opinion piece in Auto Express:

“Our rush to electric cars may harm the environment and snuff out valuable alternatives”

Steve Sutcliffe sees the accelerated mass adoption of electric cars having unforeseen environmental costs and smothering technologies with real short-term value...

"Petrolhead who writes for a car magazine doesn't like EVs and comes up with some excuse for them being a bad idea" - there's a surprise!

On the general point, though, energy storage options will evolve, with things like supercapacitors becoming an option for short distance runarounds.

 

[seagull]

I hope so, because the lithium mining option is most certainly not sustainable in any way at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

I hope so, because the lithium mining option is most certainly not sustainable in any way at all.

We’ve been ‘mining’ oil for more than a century, that’s not particularly sustainable either.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, petrols are better than diesels in that regard, but electrics are better than all of them. We really should be aiming at electric-only in cities on a far shorter timescale than the decarbonisation measures.

There is not much chance of that until electrics become much cheaper. For a typical new electric with a range of about 200 miles, you need to pay around £ 30k -- and that is probably unaffordable for a lot of people (including me).

UK EV Price list | Ranking Range and Price of electric cars in the UK | WattEV2Buy

wattev2buy.com

Petrol cars are still available at around £ 10k. Electric car purchase needs to be reduced to about that level before they are likely to become a popular purchase. If Boris / successor simply stops sales of new petrol/diesel cars, many people will just hang on to their old petrol cars for much longer probably until they are on their last legs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is not much chance of that until electrics become much cheaper. For a typical new electric with a range of about 200 miles, you need to pay around £ 30k -- and that is probably unaffordable for a lot of people (including me).

Then you don't drive into city centres. We want people to stop doing that anyway; cars cause far more harm in city centres than just pollution.

 

[AM9]

There is not much chance of that until electrics become much cheaper. For a typical new electric with a range of about 200 miles, you need to pay around £ 30k -- and that is probably unaffordable for a lot of people (including me). ...

Before too long, owning an IC vehicle will be more expensive than owning an electric equivalent.

... Petrol cars are still available at around £ 10k. Electric car purchase needs to be reduced to about that level before they are likely to become a popular purchase. If Boris / successor simply stops sales of new petrol/diesel cars, many people will just hang on to their old petrol cars for much longer probably until they are on their last legs.

You can hang on to them forever, but driving them will become more expensive than electric, and as Bletchleyite indicates, where polluting vehicles can go will be reduced year on year.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I was excited to see Porsche releasing an estate version of their electric Taycan but a shame the load capacity is just 1200 litres with the seats down and less so the £80,000 starting price.

 

[DustyBin]

Then you don't drive into city centres. We want people to stop doing that anyway; cars cause far more harm in city centres than just pollution.

They need an alternative means of getting there though, and and a rattling, uncomfortable, dirty, slow (and expensive to boot) bus isn’t acceptable. I honestly think we’re 20 to 30 years from reduced car ownership in the UK, the alternatives just aren’t there plus even many non-petrol heads love their cars as status symbols if nothing else.

On a positive note, the local council introduced a bus lane on a busy main road near me circa 4 years ago which has been very unpopular locally. Last weekend they finally scrapped it with all the lettering burnt off and the signage removed, result!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They need an alternative means of getting there though, and and a rattling, uncomfortable, dirty, slow (and expensive to boot) bus isn’t acceptable.

There is no need to drive into city centres. If you don't like buses, you can use a rail park and ride.

There are no large cities in the UK without a rail service. (There are cities, but they're the "technicality" ones that are cities for ceremonial reasons, i.e. St David's, St Asaph and Wells, which are just small towns in practice).

I honestly think we’re 20 to 30 years from reduced car ownership in the UK, the alternatives just aren’t there plus even many non-petrol heads love their cars as status symbols if nothing else.

There's no real issue with owning one, just use it less.