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Why is Marlow a nightmare to electrify?

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Bletchleyite

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Yea I did suggest the 398's earlier in the thread, just seem a perfect match.
Long term I wonder if such units could also solve the issue of electrification of many of the Cornish branch lines?

Not a bad idea. It could well be worth thinking about electrifying the branches cheaply at 750VDC overhead using tramway kit, and possibly converting to 25kV once the mainline wires get down there.

Using tram-train type stock might well offer the option to do street running extensions, if that would make the service on any of the Cornish branches more convenient (I don't know them well enough to know if any of the stations are substantially outside of the town).
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I'm throwing an idea around here, but would conversion to tram train plus a reinstatement of the route to High Wycombe be feasible?

It would reconnect Wycombe with Maidenhead and Marlow, use on street running in places where the original alignment has been lost, enable the level crossing at Bourne End to be reinstated to light rail standards, and penetrate some areas not close to the original alignment.

A suggested timetable could be every 15 minutes Wycombe - Bourne End, with every 30 minutes to each of Marlow and Maidenhead. With some clever timetabling, a Maidenhead - Wycombe could met a Wycombe - Marlow at Bourne End and vice versa.
 

JonathanH

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I'm throwing an idea around here, but would conversion to tram train plus a reinstatement of the route to High Wycombe be feasible?
No, there isn't anything like the demand to justify the enormous expenditure that this proposal would require, even using on street running.

A quick Internet search suggests 5,000 people live in Bourne End, 14,000 in Marlow.

The 37 bus route runs half hourly from High Wycombe to Bourne End and hourly onwards to Maidenhead. Maybe one day it will have electric buses. You could make it free for less than the cost of restoring the railway to High Wycombe or running light rail.
 
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CBlue

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Marlow is one of those rather affluent areas where car use will remain high because the locals can afford it.

Better off investing in areas where the services are actually going to get used....
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
No, there isn't anything like the demand to justify the enormous expenditure that this proposal would require, even using on street running.

A quick Internet search suggests 5,000 people live in Bourne End, 14,000 in Marlow.

The 37 bus route runs half hourly from High Wycombe to Bourne End and hourly onwards to Maidenhead. Maybe one day it will have electric buses. You could make it free for less than the cost of restoring the railway to High Wycombe or running light rail.

Regarding your first paragraph, could you please explain how it would be an enormous expenditure?

I do recall years ago that the Government suggested tram trains as a possibility for cheaper reopenings of lines that had closed.
 

zwk500

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It was a very rough green line, the curve could be smoother like this. I don't know if there are any other geological or engineering factors which would prevent this?
The existing curve is on the limit for trains, your curve is substantially tighter. It also goes through a house which has a market value probably not far off the cost of your proposed curve.

The best you're likely to do is extending the short platform towards Marlow and making the maidenhead line curve into joining it. But I doubt you'd get 3-car length.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Regarding your first paragraph, could you please explain how it would be an enormous expenditure?
Reinstatement beyond the buffers at Bourne End would be enormous expenditure because houses have been built opposite, so you're looking at either demolition or on-street running in a town with fairly small, tight and twisty roads. You could probably convert the existing formation without too much fuss although whether the rebuild of the stations offsets the cheaper OLE infrastructure I'm not sure.
 

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JonathanH

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Regarding your first paragraph, could you please explain how it would be an enormous expenditure?
Edinburgh Trams are being extended to Leith at a cost of £207 million for 2.67 miles - source. The distance between Bourne End and High Wycombe Station via Loudwater is about 7.1 miles, ie nearly three times that. There is also the cost of a passing loop at Cookham and the rolling stock. So, a good part of £750 million - £1 billion I would imagine. That does seem like enormous expenditure for something that it is not clear would really be that useful and just fills a gap on the railway network.

What are the main markets for travel over this route between Maidenhead, Bourne End and High Wycombe? The route isn't exactly direct from Marlow to High Wycombe relative to using the 800/850 bus.
 

Bletchleyite

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Edinburgh Trams are being extended to Leith at a cost of £207 million for 2.67 miles - source. The distance between Bourne End and High Wycombe Station via Loudwater is about 7.1 miles, ie nearly three times that. There is also the cost of a passing loop at Cookham and the rolling stock. So, a good part of £750 million - £1 billion I would imagine. That does seem like enormous expenditure for something that it is not clear would really be that useful and just fills a gap on the railway network.

What are the main markets for travel over this route between Maidenhead, Bourne End and High Wycombe? The route isn't exactly direct from Marlow to High Wycombe relative to using the 800/850 bus.

I think to be honest that this is one of those lines that you'd not close if it was still open, but reinstating it now is not worth it as the bus provides a perfectly acceptable connection for travelling the short way into Wycombe itself, and for long distance travel you can go to London or Brum via services on the GWML.

You could probably say the same thing of the Oxford to Chiltern Line extension but for one thing - the huge demand created by Bicester Village shopping centre.
 

Mikey C

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If you wanted to improve transport links between Maidenhead/Marlow and Wycombe, the key is to sort out the M40 Handy Cross junction which is the major bottleneck in the area, or find a way for north/south buses to bypass it

 

RailWonderer

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As much as I was going to suggest light rail myself, these branches have always been an outlier. The current set up is not the most practical or efficient but the demand is not there to invest in anything beyond the small amount of electrification, battery powered tram-train micro fleet (like the previously suggested TfW class 398) to cascade a few more turbos and leave it at that.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Would this work instead?

Reduce the station to a single track ( does it really need two platforms? ) - have the line from Maidenhead come in slightly further out directly into what is the present short platform with the points to the branch roughly where the long platform ends at present and move the long platform over and just use that one? The track to the branch would be where it is at present; it's the incoming track from Maidenhead which is slightly over.

No compulsory purchase or demolition required either...

Turquoise = removed track, the existing approach from Maidenhead.

Red = widened long platform.

Black = consequent track position showing pointwork slightly further out.


1619797627288.png
 

SouthEastBuses

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Would this work instead?

Reduce the station to a single track ( does it really need two platforms? ) - have the line from Maidenhead come in slightly further out directly into what is the present short platform with the points to the branch roughly where the long platform ends at present and move the long platform over and just use that one? The track to the branch would be where it is at present; it's the incoming track from Maidenhead which is slightly over.

No compulsory purchase or demolition required either...

Turquoise = removed track, the existing approach from Maidenhead.

Red = widened long platform.

Black = consequent track position showing pointwork slightly further out.


View attachment 95307
Genius idea! Would even allow 4 car Electrostars on the Marlow branch line!
 

Kite159

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Would this work instead?

Reduce the station to a single track ( does it really need two platforms? ) - have the line from Maidenhead come in slightly further out directly into what is the present short platform with the points to the branch roughly where the long platform ends at present and move the long platform over and just use that one? The track to the branch would be where it is at present; it's the incoming track from Maidenhead which is slightly over.

No compulsory purchase or demolition required either...

Turquoise = removed track, the existing approach from Maidenhead.

Red = widened long platform.

Black = consequent track position showing pointwork slightly further out.


View attachment 95307

Only issue with that is you reduce the frequency to hourly, whereas currently both platforms are used in the peaks to provide a half hourly service (Maidenhead - Bourne End & Bourne End - Marlow)
 

flitwickbeds

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Only issue with that is you reduce the frequency to hourly, whereas currently both platforms are used in the peaks to provide a half hourly service (Maidenhead - Bourne End & Bourne End - Marlow)
But that's solved with a passing loop somewhere near Cookham...
 

SouthEastBuses

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Only issue with that is you reduce the frequency to hourly, whereas currently both platforms are used in the peaks to provide a half hourly service (Maidenhead - Bourne End & Bourne End - Marlow)

But it would allow the peak hour services from London using 4 cars to be extended to Marlow...
 

MarlowDonkey

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Reduce the station to a single track ( does it really need two platforms? ) - have the line from Maidenhead come in slightly further out directly into what is the present short platform with the points to the branch
The curve is extremely tight even with its present configuration, moving the junction towards Maidenhead makes it even tighter. The line to Maidenhead curves slightly away to make matters worse.

With an unlimited budget, the short platform could be extended north across what used to be a level crossing. You would need a road closure, diversion, tunnel or bridge to make it happen.

Running wires to Marlow is going to be problematic anyway because of the access of boats with masts to the river bank. The as yet non-existent solution could be a two car battery hybrid, or alternatively 165s soldier on.
 

HSTEd

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Why did the part that closed close?

Wouldn't it have been operationally simpler to provide service from the Chiltern end of the branch?
 

Non Multi

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Why did the part that closed close?

Wouldn't it have been operationally simpler to provide service from the Chiltern end of the branch?
Money. No one wanted to pay for the ongoing costs of that stretch of line, i.e. staffing the numerous gated level crossings.
 

stuu

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Edinburgh Trams are being extended to Leith at a cost of £207 million for 2.67 miles - source. The distance between Bourne End and High Wycombe Station via Loudwater is about 7.1 miles, ie nearly three times that. There is also the cost of a passing loop at Cookham and the rolling stock. So, a good part of £750 million - £1 billion I would imagine. That does seem like enormous expenditure for something that it is not clear would really be that useful and just fills a gap on the railway network.
I don't think it is sensible to compare the cost of building a line in semi-rural Buckinghamshire with entirely on-street route through an inner city. That said, it won't be anything like cheap either, at least £30m per mile and probably worse, so just as unaffordable, even if the number is smaller
 

MarlowDonkey

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Why did the part that closed close?
Much of the traffic is or was London commuting. Loudwater and Wooburn Green perhaps looked to Beaconsfield on what became Chiltern, rather than the longish run via Maidenhead or going away from London via High Wycombe. Even in BR(W) days, the through trains to Paddington started or terminated at Bourne End. Being on the Thames, Marlow, Bourne End and Cookham may have provided more commuters anyway.

In the final years they anticipated closure by running off peak a Marlow to Maidenhead shuttle and a Bourne End to Wycombe one.
 

Mikey C

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Why did the part that closed close?

Wouldn't it have been operationally simpler to provide service from the Chiltern end of the branch?
I imagine far more people in Marlow or Bourne End would want to go to Maidenhead than High Wycombe, as there are more useful places on the GWR route (Heathrow, Slough, Reading) than on the Chiltern Line, which back then was being run down anyway
 

JonathanH

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I imagine far more people in Marlow or Bourne End would want to go to Maidenhead than High Wycombe, as there are more useful places on the GWR route (Heathrow, Slough, Reading) than on the Chiltern Line, which back then was being run down anyway
Marlow supports a frequent bus service into High Wycombe which goes past the main areas of population (some of which wasn't built in 1970). High Wycombe Station isn't in a great location for the town and neither is Marlow. The route via Bourne End to High Wycombe isn't exactly direct.
 

Bald Rick

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It would be interesting to know whether the solicitors, when doing planning searches, comment on the likelihood of these houses being bulldozed for the purpose of 'tidying up the railway' in their reports to potential purchasers of the properties.

Most conveyancing solicitors will check the relevant documents in the planning authority’s records, ie where there are planning applications or elements of the local plan (eg safeguarding). A few (a very few) solicitors write to NR to ask for details of any and all proposals for railway projects with in ‘x’ distance of a property being purchased. Even then it will only pick up where proposals are actively under consideration. It won’t pick up crayoning on the internet.

Potentially a long term plan for the railway to purchase those 2 properties when they come up for sale (and maybe rent them out to recoup the costs)?

as has been said upthread, it doesn’t help. And the railway would (probably) still need an Order under the Transport & Works Act if it was moving the railway outside the limits of deviation from the original enabling Act.


If you wanted to improve transport links between Maidenhead/Marlow and Wycombe, the key is to sort out the M40 Handy Cross junction which is the major bottleneck in the area

That’s being studied now.
 

ABB125

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I haven’t seen any. It gets a mention in RIS2 as being in the development for RP3, ie the 5 years starting 2025.
Thanks - I don't remember reading it in RIS2, but I only read it once around the time it came out, so to be honest I don't remember much from the document! :D
 

HSTEd

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Err, why? Standard highway clearance of 16' 6" would be provided as any other crossing.

Unfortunately being in the right does not prevent physics from taking effect.

The risk assessment would have to consider idiots with masts up trying to drive there.
 

Bald Rick

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Unfortunately being in the right does not prevent physics from taking effect.

The risk assessment would have to consider idiots with masts up trying to drive there.

Quite.

Having watched someone drive a vehicle with roof trusses on the back attempt to cross a minor level crossing, but not able to get under the string of bells put on the approach.... clamber up the truss and hook the bells over the truss.... the general public’s potential for stupidity should not be underestimated.

(Fortunately we got to him in time before trying the same with the OLE! Although it was isolated, he wasn’t to know that).
 
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