XC Glasgow extensions from May 2011

[swt_passenger]

The Track Access application by XC for the expected transfer of ECML services is now on NR's website. These are the services the Scottish press seemed convinced wouldn't be happening, if I remember from an earlier thread on the subject...

Relevant extracts:

From May 2011, XC will operate approximately two-hourly services from Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley (via Carstairs), supplementing its existing services on this route and ultimately providing nine inter-city services per day (SX and SO) between Glasgow and Edinburgh in each direction. Sundays will see six ‘Down’ services and seven ‘Up’ direction services.
The ‘transferred’ XC services to / from Glasgow will be formed from the extension of services from the West Country, the West Midlands and West Yorkshire which currently start / terminate at Edinburgh. These services will be operated by 4-car (Class 220) or 5-car (Class 221) rolling stock.
On weekdays, the extended ‘Down’ direction services from Edinburgh to Glasgow will depart at 05:33, 09:11, 11:11, 13:11, 15:11 and 17:11. Extended services in the ‘Up’ direction will start back from Glasgow Central at 07:50, 11:00, 13:00, 15:00 16:58 and 19:00.

 

[rail-britain]

Why would Cross Country need a Track Application, as they already have rights on this route?

 

[tom1649]

Yet another waste of electrification, running diesels under the wires. Another example is Stockport to Hazel Grove which I believe gets just one booked electric train per day now.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would Cross Country need a Track Application, as they already have rights on this route?

The track access rights specify the explicit number of passenger services, journey times, first and last trains and normal calling patterns, etc. So an application like this one is fairly academic, and dealt with by Network Rail by delegation from ORR, because as you suggest it is just 'more of the same'. However, if you look at current consultations on the NR website you'll see track access applications for some pretty trivial alterations.

(As an example, SWT are altering the clockface timings of the Brockenhurst Lymington shuttle. Because either the earliest or latest train is then outside the present track access contract times, a new track access application is required...)

 

[rail-britain]

Yet another waste of electrification, running diesels under the wires

This is one of the problems with electrification and changes over time
I do agree though with the removal of Class 91 locos from this route this reduces this to about just four electric trains per day
Equally, Cross Country trains used to be split electric between Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham, this changeover to HSTs ended that

Hopefully over time bi-mode will return, but this increases train weight as only one mode can be used at any one time
Ironic, diesel-electric locos are now vastly quieter and more efficient, linked with electric locos the costs are really no different (compared to the Voyager)
Sad I know, but it really is time they look back and see what mistakes have been made and learn from them

 

[me123]

It may be a waste of electrification, but running the Crosscountry services to Glasgow is a better use of resources (IMO) than the East Coast services. The Voyagers will probably be able to cope with the loadings. The majority of journeys to the North of England will be maintained. Journeys to the Southern part of the ECML are only a single change away (not ideal, I know). And you've opened up more frequent direct trains between Glasgow and Leeds and Sheffield.

Looking at the times from Glasgow, would I be right in saying that the gaps in the morning (most notably between 07:50 and 11:00) would be plugged by East Coast trains continuing to serve Glasgow? And, similarly, services from Edinburgh after 17:11 will also be operated by East Coast from King's Cross.

I'm sure I said this elsewhere, but CrossCountry really has to be a candidate for bi-mode trains. They already run extensively under the wires (from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Doncaster, as well as Manchester to Birmingham on the WCML), and providing them with pantographs will hopefully promote future electrification of the core Cross country route; it means that if they do ever electrify (say) York-Leeds, that existing trains can start using it immediately. And, once the route has been wired up, the extremities (such as Penzance and Aberdeen) can continue to be served despite not being electrified.

 

[djw1981]

wonder if the £1.90 XC only singled GLC-EDB will continue?

 

[TEW]

Between 07:50 and 1100 there is the current 0900 XC service from Glasgow which will presumably continue. Also a 0600 from Glasgow and 1907 and 2111 from Edinburgh-Glasgow.

 

[Dewedin]

wonder if the £1.90 XC only singled GLC-EDB will continue?

I would expect the fate to be shared with the £1.30 single from Motherwell.

 

[tbtc]

It may be a waste of electrification, but running the Crosscountry services to Glasgow is a better use of resources (IMO) than the East Coast services. The Voyagers will probably be able to cope with the loadings. The majority of journeys to the North of England will be maintained. Journeys to the Southern part of the ECML are only a single change away (not ideal, I know). And you've opened up more frequent direct trains between Glasgow and Leeds and Sheffield.

Agreed.

Better to use a Voyager under the wires here if it releases 225s to run busier London - York trips.

It's realistic, but not ideal. It'd be nice to have direct links between everywhere, and not to run diesels under wires, but I think this is the right move here.

Virgin will surely love it as they'll now get 99% of the London - Glasgow ORCATS revenue, surely?

 

[dk1]

Agreed.

Better to use a Voyager under the wires here if it releases 225s to run busier London - York trips.

It's realistic, but not ideal. It'd be nice to have direct links between everywhere, and not to run diesels under wires, but I think this is the right move here.

Virgin will surely love it as they'll now get 99% of the London - Glasgow ORCATS revenue, surely?

Should still be one East Coast Kings Cross service in each direction, although i think all the talk of it being one of the new 11-car Pendo's is a load of political tosh.

 

[rail-britain]

wonder if the £1.90 XC only singled GLC-EDB will continue?

This fare only applies on the early morning Edinburgh - Glasgow and late evening Glasgow - Edinburgh
Therefore it should continue
Normal fares will apply, as at present

However, Cross Country may do the same as East Coast and revise the day return fares if loadings remain poor

 

[First class]

50p single Glasgow-Edinburgh on my PRIV

ORCATS assumes (tries to) every journey possibility and calculates the proportion of revenue for TOCs that the ticket is theoretically valid on.

Virgin will only get about 50% of ORCATS revenue on a typical Any Permitted anyway:

1) Scotrail will get a sizeable amount,
--Sleepers both directions PLUS services to Carlisle/Newcastle
2) Northern will get some revenue for those who may travel via the Cumbrian Coast/Preston-Manchester/Manchester-Crewe etc.
3) Transpennine will get a very good amount of revenue
4) East Coast will still get some revenue
5) CrossCountry will get some revenue (Stafford-Birmingham)
6) London Midland will get some revenue (Crewe-London)
7) Chiltern will get some revenue (Galton Bridge-London)
8) Arriva Trains Wales will get some revenue (Wolverhampton-Birmingham)
9) No doubt EMT could get some revenue somewhere along the way (maybe Crewe-Stoke?)
10) WSMR could get some revenue around the Midlands

That's at least 11 TOCs getting a slice of £100 odd.

and if it is valid into Paddington then FGW will also get something.

 

[ivanhoe]

50p single Glasgow-Edinburgh on my PRIV

ORCATS assumes (tries to) every journey possibility and calculates the proportion of revenue for TOCs that the ticket is theoretically valid on.

Virgin will only get about 50% of ORCATS revenue on a typical Any Permitted anyway:

1) Scotrail will get a sizeable amount,
--Sleepers both directions PLUS services to Carlisle/Newcastle
2) Northern will get some revenue for those who may travel via the Cumbrian Coast/Preston-Manchester/Manchester-Crewe etc.
3) Transpennine will get a very good amount of revenue
4) East Coast will still get some revenue
5) CrossCountry will get some revenue (Stafford-Birmingham)
6) London Midland will get some revenue (Crewe-London)
7) Chiltern will get some revenue (Galton Bridge-London)
8) Arriva Trains Wales will get some revenue (Wolverhampton-Birmingham)
9) No doubt EMT could get some revenue somewhere along the way (maybe Crewe-Stoke?)
10) WSMR could get some revenue around the Midlands

That's at least 11 TOCs getting a slice of £100 odd.

and if it is valid into Paddington then FGW will also get something.

that is the best case yet for fewer franchises

 

[rail-britain]

Should still be one East Coast Kings Cross service in each direction, although i think all the talk of it being one of the new 11-car Pendo's is a load of political tosh

There may well be one such unit operating, but I suspect the proposal itself came about from a discussion in the corridors of the DfT / East Coast, "Psst, we've got some spare trains suitable for you to use, send a proposal to use them, we might consider it, as we can't just give them to you"

 

[swt_passenger]

I've tried to work out a comparison between now and May 2011:

Current - Glasgow to Edinburgh, XC and EC combined:
0601, 0650, 0750, 0900, 0950, 1150, 1350, 1550, 1750, 1950, 2048
May 2011 - Glasgow to Edinburgh, all XC except 0650:
0601, 0650, 0750, 0900, 1100, 1300, 1500 1658, 1900, 2048

Current - Edinburgh to Glasgow, XC and EC combined:
0700, 0808, 0922, 1138, 1340, 1522, 1740, 1903, 2108
May 2011 - Edinburgh to Glasgow, all XC except 2021:
0533, 0700, 0911, 1111, 1311, 1511, 1711, 1903, 2021, 2108

IMHO the spread of services seems somewhat better than originally proposed in the Dec 2009 draft, which is where I got the times for my presumed single
EC service each way.

 

[TEW]

Looks like the 0533 Edinburgh-Glasgow and 0750 Glasgow-Plymouth is replacing an XC Dundee service, I wonder if Dundee will lose the service altogether or whether it will replaced at alternative time.

 

[me123]

Surprised how few East Coast services go through to Glasgow; I'd always thought it would be 2tpd, not that they're particularly needed. Presumably only one train per night stabling at Polmadie now. I wonder if Crosscountry will start to stable trains there (well, all of 1tpd), or if they're going to continue running empty to and from Craigentinny.

Looks like a good service frequency for Motherwell-Edinburgh, though. Anyone who's used the trains will know that they are a popular commuter route, and that the trains are hardly running empty West of Edinburgh (although using 91s and Mk IVs is undeniably overkill).

 

[rail-britain]

Looks like the 0533 Edinburgh-Glasgow and 0750 Glasgow-Plymouth is replacing an XC Dundee service, I wonder if Dundee will lose the service altogether or whether it will replaced at alternative time

No, the XC Dundee service is ending, the service is being replaced by one operated by FSR between Edinburgh and Dundee, within Scotland
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surprised how few East Coast services go through to Glasgow. Presumably only one train per night stabling at Polmadie now. I wonder if Crosscountry will start to stable trains there (well, all of 1tpd), or if they're going to continue running empty to and from Craigentinny

It is a basic swap, the same number of trains stabled at both Polmadie and Craigentinny
It will also mean that Craigentinny will see more of its own trains on a daily basis!
Equally, this will mean Polmadie will see more Voyagers
This also reduces the number of ECS trains running ECS between Glasgow and Craigentinny

 

[tbtc]

Anyone who's used the trains will know that they are a popular commuter route, and that the trains are hardly running empty West of Edinburgh

They have to be with a chance of winning the "emptiest trains serving Waverley" title though. A Pacer could cope with the passenger volumes of the ones I've been on.

 

[TEW]

It is a basic swap, the same number of trains stabled at both Polmadie and Craigentinny
It will also mean that Craigentinny will see more of its own trains on a daily basis!
Equally, this will mean Polmadie will see more Voyagers
This also reduces the number of ECS trains running ECS between Glasgow and Craigentinny

Will any XC units be stabled at Polmadie, only the 0601 off Glasgow and 2108 off Edinburgh don't have a working in the other direction and both of those currently go to Craigentinny. As the 0601 is a voyager and the 2108 an HST it wouldn't be as easy as stabling one set at Polmadie unless the HST diagrams are altered.

 

[First ScotRail]

Whilst the trains are not very busy at present, it is important to consider that in the summer EastCoast services leaving Glasgow are often VERY busy and thats with an 8 coach train, cut that to a 4 coach 220 and I think the loadings wont be that bad. Even XC's own services at present are much busier than previously in my opinion. What happens when A-B opens who knows.

I can see the HST being scraped as well, it indicated in the documents that 220/221s will be used, no mention of HSTs. I also cant see XC using Polmodie anymore than present as most of the diagrams as stated go straight back out. No need to really use Polmodie when they have existing arrangements with Craigentinny. Remember that the units collect the driver/TM etc at Waverley before they come across...Also worth noting as well that first class service at seat now commences at EDB as well with XC, cant see that changing though...

 

[me123]

They have to be with a chance of winning the "emptiest trains serving Waverley" title though. A Pacer could cope with the passenger volumes of the ones I've been on.

Sometimes, yes. There is quite a bit of variation between individual services. A fair number of the trains do run with few passengers (although, to be fair, the sheer size of the East Coast sets probably makes it look quieter than it actually is). But I've been on it in the morning and evening peaks, and they're definitely more than 50% loaded quite a bit of the time (including passengers from further South in this), and even off peak services are fairly well used.

Of course, hardly overcrowded. And, as I've already said, the East Coast sets are more than is necessary for such a route, in terms of day-to-day running. But ever underestimate the number of passengers; I've often found myself surprised at just how many people board/alight at Motherwell.

The main reason for the relatively low loadings would probably be the relatively low frequency. People in Motherwell are used to 4tph to Glasgow. And people travelling between the two cities would be barmy not to use the 4tph leaving Queen Street (which are considerably faster to boot). In comparison, 1tp2h is pretty poor (albeit sufficient) and, whilst it is used, I don't think anywhere near as many people from Motherwell routinely hop on the train to Edinburgh as they do to Glasgow. Let's face it, you could easily be stuck for 2 hours if you missed a train back! (More if you're on an off-peak ticket and miss the last off-peak train).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst the trains are not very busy at present, it is important to consider that in the summer EastCoast services leaving Glasgow are often VERY busy and thats with an 8 coach train, cut that to a 4 coach 220 and I think the loadings wont be that bad. Even XC's own services at present are much busier than previously in my opinion. What happens when A-B opens who knows.

Exactly right. In the Summer, particularly over the Fringe, I've seen the trains very close to 100% used (never full and standing, thankfully). But I do reckon that most of the time the Voyager will be sufficient.

As you say, Airdrie-Bathgate (with a much better service frequency) will undoubtedly take a fair bit of the strain off these services.

 

[Stephen_H]

The XC trains don't always serve Motherwell - the first of the day from Glasgow for instance. I wonder if this will change for the better or indeed worse! As a Motherwell to Edinburgh commuter it is good to see the gaps have been filled by XC as had always been planned.

I do know the 17:11 Edinburgh service is not being met with great joy. For anyone working a 9-5 it gives them 11 minutes to get to Waverley or maybe 15 to get to Haymarket. If they miss that then there could be a long gap until the next service depending on the Scotrail options. Either way it'll not be a 45 minute train unless Scotrail start to offer some sort of express option. It would either be the current train that takes the Shotts line at 20 past which takes an hour and 10 minutes if EVERYTHING falls in to place, or the half 6 electric service via carstairs.

 

[First ScotRail]

All XC weekday trains from Glasgow will serve motherwell from December.

 

[tbtc]

The XC trains don't always serve Motherwell - the first of the day from Glasgow for instance

Route learning for diversions etc?

 

[First ScotRail]

If I remember correctly all the current services divert around Glasgow instead of going fast to motherwell like Virgin and EastCoast. Adding an extra 10 minutes to most journeys.

 

[me123]

At least the 09:00 from Glasgow goes via Motherwell, and I think one in the return direction does as well. That said, quite a few do go via Shotts.

As for the 17:40(?) service from Edinburgh-Motherwell, I can vouch that it is very well used. So I do hope that there's a viable alternative for Motherwell-Edinburgh commuters some time after the 17:11.

 

[rail-britain]

If I remember correctly all the current services divert around Glasgow instead of going fast to motherwell like Virgin and EastCoast. Adding an extra 10 minutes to most journeys

I noticed this on the 04:28 Glasgow - Euston recently
Last year it went via Motherwell
I travelled on it two days in a row and eventually worked out it went via Holytown
No difference on the journey time compared to last year , however last year the train arrived quite early at Carlisle and sat for at least 15 minutes, this didn't happen this year

 

[A60K]

At least the 09:00 from Glasgow goes via Motherwell, and I think one in the return direction does as well. That said, quite a few do go via Shotts.

As for the 17:40(?) service from Edinburgh-Motherwell, I can vouch that it is very well used. So I do hope that there's a viable alternative for Motherwell-Edinburgh commuters some time after the 17:11.

The 1711 will probably run 15 minutes late more often than not