Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[JonathanH]

Especially as someone travelling between York & Doncaster will be taking up a seat reservation away from someone travelling longer distance, whereas in the past if they had to stand for that short journey then they would.

Likewise Leeds - Wakefield

I'd imagine that to be managed by not allowing people to choose their own seat on short journeys and to match the York to Doncaster reservations against Newcastle to York and Doncaster to London reservations.

 

[Kite159]

I'd imagine that to be managed by not allowing people to choose their own seat on short journeys and to match the York to Doncaster reservations against Newcastle to York and Doncaster to London reservations.

So everybody in one coach when the rest of the train runs around carrying fresh air as that is what the reservation system has planned to happen?

 

[Watershed]

No, the solution is to use reservations to better spread demand across the available capacity by directing passengers away from full trains.That's really not a hard concept to grasp.

That's fine if there are enough trains with capacity, around the times of day that people actually want to travel. But on some days there simply won't be enough capacity to spread people across. Is the railway simply going to tell people to get lost? How much negative press would that generate...?

CR is perhaps more justified if the issue is just one or two individual overcrowded trains, with empty trains either side. But that's rarely how it is.

No, because that is false equivalence, and a totally different type of service (and Completely impractical).

Is Wakefield to Leeds all that different a journey to Ealing Broadway to Tottenham Court Road?

Of course the railways need to move with the times. But the answer isn't to inconvenience everyone and throw away capacity for the benefit of a vocal few.

 

[Ianno87]

That's fine if there are enough trains with capacity, around the times of day that people actually want to travel. But on some days there simply won't be enough capacity to spread people across. Is the railway simply going to tell people to get lost? How much negative press would that generate...?

Probably less than the usual rounds off "you've sold too many tickets!" and "there's no social distancing"

Is Wakefield to Leeds all that different a journey to Ealing Broadway to Tottenham Court Road?

No, I said the service was Very different, not the journey. Clearly a high proportion of passengers today on LNER reserve in advamce, so that's no big change (not the case on LU)

Of course the railways need to move with the times. But the answer isn't to inconvenience everyone and throw away capacity for the benefit of a vocal few.

My point is that it's the "I don't want to reserve" brigade who are in fact the minority (which you could probably demonstrate from current ticketing data already)

 

[yorksrob]

If you think that the way to attract people to trains is to make it more of a rigmorole, then fair enough.

 

[Ianno87]

If you think that the way to attract people to trains is to make it more of a rigmorole, then fair enough.

But it's not rigmarole:

-Most long distance passengers probably travel.on a seat reservation issued with their ticket already, so are basically unaffected.

-For everybody else, most would either just get their reservation issued as they buy their ticket, or get a reservation on their phone than is less effort than taking time to make repeated posts on an Internet forum (for example)

 

[Taunton]

And "people" (in the general sense) will have very different expectations of the service train operators should be providing in the post-Covid years. "Pack 'em in" ain't going to be acceptable.

What about providing sufficient accommodation for the typical demand? Something which the current rail generation rather lost in their desperation to provide minimal accommodation, regularly carrying standing loads past half their fleet sat in sidings outside the peaks.

Lost here is that I don't have to book, plan ahead, or let it drive my day if I choose to go by car. Which is why it has taken the majority of journeys.

 

[Ianno87]

What about providing sufficient accommodation for the typical demand? Something which the current rail generation rather lost in their desperation to provide minimal accommodation, regularly carrying standing loads past half their fleet sat in sidings outside the peaks.

Lost here is that I don't have to book, plan ahead, or let it drive my day if I choose to go by car. Which is why it has taken the majority of journeys.

What more could LNER do? They run 5-6tph, and most services run 9-10 car trains. You can't really accuse them in of not trying in this respect.

 

[Domh245]

You could manage situations like that by deliberately holding back quotas of seats that are unreservedly until 24/48 hours before (or whatever) to keep some capacity for short-notice demand.

That doesn't solve anything though? The issue of those unmovable events is that they're simply just high demand times. Having 'late reservations' just means that they'll sell out as soon as they're released, as everyone wants to travel then. It's not like people suddenly realise two days before christmas that they want to go visit family, or that their team is playing away that saturday, they'll have planned it weeks/months in advance. The issue is that the railway has decided that it's simply just going to start turning people (who, presumably paying full-fare rather than advance are quite profitable) away on those days.

 

[Ianno87]

That doesn't solve anything though? The issue of those unmovable events is that they're simply just high demand times. Having 'late reservations' just means that they'll sell out as soon as they're released, as everyone wants to travel then. It's not like people suddenly realise two days before christmas that they want to go visit family, or that their team is playing away that saturday, they'll have planned it weeks/months in advance. The issue is that the railway has decided that it's simply just going to start turning people (who, presumably paying full-fare rather than advance are quite profitable) away on those days.

Not turning away, but spreading them across more trains.

 

[alistairlees]

What about providing sufficient accommodation for the typical demand? Something which the current rail generation rather lost in their desperation to provide minimal accommodation, regularly carrying standing loads past half their fleet sat in sidings outside the peaks.

Lost here is that I don't have to book, plan ahead, or let it drive my day if I choose to go by car. Which is why it has taken the majority of journeys.

Do you get a reserved seat in your car?

 

[ash39]

The biggest irony amongst all this is the main justification seems to be based around social distancing and not having packed trains, yet last weekend I walked through Leeds and saw literally hundreds of people outside bars huddled together around patio heaters.

The majority of people don't care about social distancing, nor should they need to once we have sufficient vaccinations.

There was nothing wrong with how things were before. You accepted you either reserved a seat or took a chance on standing at busy times. Nobody can convince me that compulsory reservations are a good idea. I'm trying to make a 30 minute journey, not fly to the States.

Next you'll be needing to check in at the station.

 

[Domh245]

Not turning away, but spreading them across more trains.

That doesn't work though when you've got a high volume of (potential) passengers, and are time limited. Some people may be able to move their day of travel earlier, but if I want to go and do something on a particular day (a bank holiday day trip, or seeing an early kick off match) but LNER tell me that their trains are fully booked and have I considered the 1400 the day after, then I'll be in a car (or not travelling, and upset)

 

[Taunton]

So everybody in one coach when the rest of the train runs around carrying fresh air as that is what the reservation system has planned to happen?

There are a number of reservation systems around the world that do this. France is a particular offender, just filling each coach up sequentially from one end to the other. Amtrak even does it for unreserved, by the train crew putting passengers for different intermediate destinations in different carriages, apparently to make it a bit more convenient for the crew. Both lead to trains with some coaches fully occupied and others empty.

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Do you get a reserved seat in your car?

Of course I do. It's my car.

 

[Bikeman78]

For the next few years at least, I'd expect packing people onto crowded long distance trains Maundy Thursday style to be deemed pretty much unacceptable by many, and a terrible "shop window" for the industry. CR is the industry's solution - nobody has offered a better solution.

I'll be genuinely interested to see what happens after the next big incident closes the ECML for hours. Will people hang about for hours after the line reopens or just pack onto the first train going in the right direction? I suspect the latter. I've already seen examples of local trains being full. People don't seem bothered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps compulsory reservations and the seat guarantee that gives are what the 80-90% of the population who don't regularly use rail actually **want**? With easy app/Web based booking for reservation. Time for the industry to think differently and try a different tact - it's traditional user base may not come back. The "forum bubble" I'd argue doesn't get this.

I think I'd be watching East Coast Trains closely on this one.

Yes, they'll know immediately that X people will have missed a connection, and plan accordingly.

The ultimate goal is that you're rebooked automatically as soon as they know the connection will miss, so you're automatically sent your new itinerary. Or if you're connecting onto the S&C, say, and your wait is 3 hours, a taxi is already arranged before you even get there.

Knowing everyone's itinerary is incredibly powerful in what can be achieved.

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I'd imagine that to be managed by not allowing people to choose their own seat on short journeys and to match the York to Doncaster reservations against Newcastle to York and Doncaster to London reservations.

Charging to choose is an effective way to manage that.

 

[Watershed]

No, I said the service was Very different, not the journey. Clearly a high proportion of passengers today on LNER reserve in advamce, so that's no big change (not the case on LU)

How many people travelling from Wakefield to Leeds think "ah, the next train is a red and white train, I'd better get a reservation"? They don't give a monkey's what kind of train they're on, it's a box on wheels that gets them from A to B.

If LNER were solely to operate Edinburgh services with one or two intermediate stops (like ECTL) then fine, it's a glorified airline service on wheels. But as there is no reasonable alternative for much of the capacity and frequency provided on the local flows along the ECML...

As for reserving in advance by virtue of buying an Advance ticket, the cheapest flexible return from York to London is £120. So there will inherently be a significant degree of "self-selection", in that lots of rail users will be those who are willing to put up with limits on flexibility to cut the cost.

If TOCs made it possible to travel for a reasonable price without needing to tie yourself down, I'm sure that reservation levels would drop as you got more MOPs who were previously unwilling to comply with those sorts of impositions.

What more could LNER do? They run 5-6tph, and most services run 9-10 car trains. You can't really accuse them in of not trying in this respect.

Not throw away about 25% of their capacity?

 

[43096]

Not turning away, but spreading them across more trains.

You just don’t get it, do you? It’s really simple: to get people out of cars the railway has to make travel simple. Putting in more restrictions and hoops to jump through just makes it harder. You are advocating the latter and are seemingly incapable of grasping that it needs to be made simple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You just don’t get it, do you? It’s really simple: to get people out of cars the railway has to make travel simple. Putting in more restrictions and hoops to jump through just makes it harder. You are advocating the latter and are seemingly incapable of grasping that it needs to be made simple.

There is literally nothing simpler than booking your ticket and having in front of you a ticket with the train, coach and seat on it that you have to use.

Walk up tickets by definition have more complexity as you have to define bounds of validity.

 

[Dave91131]

There is literally nothing simpler than booking your ticket and having in front of you a ticket with the train, coach and seat on it that you have to use.

Walk up tickets by definition have more complexity as you have to define bounds of validity.

I'd argue there's nothing simpler than having a ticket from A to B and being able to travel on any train from A to B.

 

[43096]

There is literally nothing simpler than booking your ticket and having in front of you a ticket with the train, coach and seat on it that you have to use.

Wrong. There is nothing simpler than getting the keys and getting in the car and driving. Until the railway gets that it isn’t going to successfully fill the revenue hole it has.

Walk up tickets by definition have more complexity as you have to define bounds of validity.

Wrong again. What could be simpler than a ticket that allows you to use any train? I actually can’t believe you wrote what you did: on the one hand you say walk up tickets are more complex because you have to define bounds of validity, yet you support something within even tighter boundaries as if it is less complex. Your argument is an utter nonsense.

 

[alistairlees]

This is indeed the main reason for compulsory reservations being introduced.

To put a bit more flavour on it, there have been many (pre-Covid) instances where trains leaving Kings Cross especially (and also other stations) have been grossly overbooked, with many customers having to stand for very long journeys (such as London to Edinburgh). I've seen this myself several times on Fridays and Sundays.

It goes without saying that this leads to a very poor customer experience, and a view (both by those directly affected, and those who were on the train but had a seat) that train travel is not good at all, at any price really.

But we need to ask: why did this happen? The answer was that it was because, although all reservable accommodation was fully reserved, online booking engines continued to sell tickets, even though there was no seat for the ticket holder to sit in. You might think that this is the fault of online booking engines then, but that isn't actually the case - with the old National Reservation System (NRS) it was not possible to tell whether there was no availability because the train was fully sold out, or because reservations were not set up for some reason - the response was the same.

Since the pandemic started, a new reservation system (RARS2 - Rail Availability and Reservation Service) has replaced the previous one. This is more sophisticated in a few ways, and it should be possible (so far as I know) with this to be able to distinguish between trains that are "sold out", and trains that don't have reservations set up (although they ordinarily would).

As a result, it should also be possible for online booking engines (and also station TIS and TVMs) to indicate that a service is fully booked and that, although you can buy a ticket for it, you are not guaranteed to get a seat, and that you should consider getting a different service instead; this is quite a manageable UX challenge really.

So that's it, really. There isn't actually any need for the very blunt approach of compulsory reservations for all inter-city services in order to solve the problem that I mentioned at the start. (There was a year ago, when we were on the old reservation system, but that problem has gone away now.) It's a problem that can be resolved through understanding and using the available data, to nudge customers' behaviour in the right way. And it isn't even that difficult to solve, really.

Most importantly of all, the context that we find ourselves within at the moment must be appreciated. The railway desperately needs to attract back previous customers and to win new customers (the latter to fill the revenue hole left by a drop in commuters and, probably, business travel). And to do that it has to avoid unnecessarily creating situations where customers have every right to be aggrieved, and are likely not only to not travel again, but also to tell others about their experience (both through social media and through their own social networks). If the railway doesn't solve problems like this, then revenue won't get to the levels we need it to get to, and even more cutbacks and closures will happen.

Around about 400 posts ago (!) I posted the above in this thread.

There are many customers who both really value and expect to get a seat for their journey. Quite understandably so, when they are making a long journey, or they are unfamiliar with how trains 'work' (or both).

So we need to make sure that those customers do get a seat - that they are not sold tickets for a train that is already full.

The old reservation system (NRS) couldn't distinguish between "train full" and "train not open for reservations yet" in its responses, so this led (on lots of occasions) to tickets being sold for trains that were already fully reserved. The only way to solve this with NRS was to make trains compulsory reservation. This is a blunt tool, and - with NRS- if a train was compulsory reservation from London to Edinburgh, then it was also compulsory reservation from Durham to Newcastle.

NRS was replaced with RARS2 in stages fro September 2020 to March 2021; most TOCs had migrated by January 2021.

RARS2 certainly has some more flexibility (you would hope so, considering it's rather more modern). All TIS suppliers are still understanding what it can and cannot do.

However, I think it will make it much more possible to square the circle here: it should be possible to prevent people from booking on already fully reserved trains (or, at least, warn them that they will not get a seat) without the train needing to be compulsory reservation.

This will be the best of both worlds: members of the public can be sure they will get a seat on their journey (at least for the longer distance reservable part of a journey, such as LNER); and forum members (and other more experienced customers / members of the public) will be able to travel on whichever train suits them without the need to make a reservation.

That's the theory. It's yet to be tested. But there's a good chance it's achievable, and it's in everyone's interest for it to be achieved.

 

[Bevan Price]

But it's not rigmarole:

-Most long distance passengers probably travel.on a seat reservation issued with their ticket already, so are basically unaffected.

-For everybody else, most would either just get their reservation issued as they buy their ticket, or get a reservation on their phone than is less effort than taking time to make repeated posts on an Internet forum (for example)

Railways supposedly exist for the convenience of the public - not railway managements. And not every trip is planned in advance. Day trips to tourist or shopping destinations (e.g. York) are often decided at short notice, dependent on the weather. And if the weather suddenly turns bad (a not-uncommon event here), you may want to return home as soon as possible - not hang around a station for hours waiting for the next train with an unreserved seat.

Unfortunately - and not only on railways - some people who become senior managers in the transport industry seem to lose touch with what it is like to be an ordinary member of the travelling public. Most of us want life made as simple as possible. Compulsory reservations, complicated fare structures, and over-complex ticket machines are not compatible with a simple life.

 

[ChrisC]

You just don’t get it, do you? It’s really simple: to get people out of cars the railway has to make travel simple. Putting in more restrictions and hoops to jump through just makes it harder. You are advocating the latter and are seemingly incapable of grasping that it needs to be made simple.

I’m not one of those people who needs getting out of my car and onto the railway. I’m someone who prefers to use the train when going on holiday and apart from during this last year have usually done so. However, if I have to go through the process of reserving seats every time I travel, and perhaps will not be able to travel at the time I want to because a train is already fully reserved, then I will be using my car far more often.

 

[Kite159]

The biggest irony amongst all this is the main justification seems to be based around social distancing and not having packed trains, yet last weekend I walked through Leeds and saw literally hundreds of people outside bars huddled together around patio heaters.

The majority of people don't care about social distancing, nor should they need to once we have sufficient vaccinations.

There was nothing wrong with how things were before. You accepted you either reserved a seat or took a chance on standing at busy times. Nobody can convince me that compulsory reservations are a good idea. I'm trying to make a 30 minute journey, not fly to the States.

Next you'll be needing to check in at the station.

Or arriving into London on a socially distanced train to go underground onto a busy underground service or other busy local service.

Or arriving into Newcastle before boarding a busy 2 coach unit to the Metro Centre

 

[Skymonster]

There is literally nothing simpler than booking your ticket and having in front of you a ticket with the train, coach and seat on it that you have to use.

Walk up tickets by definition have more complexity as you have to define bounds of validity.

Huh? There is nothing simpler than a ticket that enables a customer to use any train they wish to use that’s going in the direction they wish to travel.

Take yesterday:

My meeting ended earlier than expected and having had a great ride on an Anglia Flirt (far more comfortable than the LNER 801) to Peterborough, I was way ahead of time with an open ticket but the station PA system was keen to remind me that LNER services required mandatory reservations.

”F*** that” I think and jump on the first Azuma Going north. Plenty of empty seats, no problem. What could be simpler? No complexity of having to try to make a reservation - just a nice simple walk on service. It’s what public transport is about.

What is LNER going to do? It hasn’t got the staff to monitor boarding at every door. And the NRCOC doesn‘t appear to supper fining customers who don’t have reservations.

Anyway, I had pleasant ride north (even if the seat was not as comfortable as the 755), no reservation, no demand during the ticket inspection to see any reservation. I shall not trouble myself too much with LNER’s petty but unenforceable policies at present.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue there's nothing simpler than having a ticket from A to B and being able to travel on any train from A to B.

Right, so London to Edinburgh.

Do you allow:

• Travel from Euston? Via Glasgow? Via Newcastle? Via Manchester?
• Silly routes, e.g. via Wick?
• Other TOCs as well as LNER?
• Break of journey?

And so on, and so forth. You could just say "yes" to everything, but then you create anomalies, as if you're going to Wick you would then want to purchase a London to Edinburgh ticket, not a London to Wick one.

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Or arriving into London on a socially distanced train to go underground onto a busy underground service or other busy local service.

Many will use taxis, "Sadiq cycles" (!) or walk to avoid that.

Or arriving into Newcastle before boarding a busy 2 coach unit to the Metro Centre

I don't think the Metro Centre is a major InterCity destination. Most people visiting it start somewhere in the Newcastle area.

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Wrong. There is nothing simpler than getting the keys and getting in the car and driving. Until the railway gets that it isn’t going to successfully fill the revenue hole it has.

On LNER in particular walk up fares are pretty high, so book an Advance is what most people do. This is less the case on the WCML where because Virgin abolished SuperSavers in the late 90s and reduced the Saver to the average of the two (and then that lower fare became regulated), many if not most walk-up fares are something like 20-30% cheaper.

This would, therefore, for the vast majority of LNER users, be a change from "an Advance on a possibly overcrowded train" to "an Advance on a train that won't be overcrowded".

Wrong again. What could be simpler than a ticket that allows you to use any train? I actually can’t believe you wrote what you did: on the one hand you say walk up tickets are more complex because you have to define bounds of validity, yet you support something within even tighter boundaries as if it is less complex. Your argument is an utter nonsense.

It's not. The ticket says on it what it's valid on. There is no scope for argument, confusion or anything. Everyone knows how airline ticketing works, this is the same.

 

[Kite159]

Right, so London to Edinburgh.

Do you allow:

• Travel from Euston? Via Glasgow? Via Newcastle? Via Manchester?
• Silly routes, e.g. via Wick?
• Other TOCs as well as LNER?
• Break of journey?

And so on, and so forth. You could just say "yes" to everything, but then you create anomalies, as if you're going to Wick you would then want to purchase a London to Edinburgh ticket, not a London to Wick one.

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Many will use taxis, "Sadiq cycles" (!) or walk to avoid that.



I don't think the Metro Centre is a major InterCity destination. Most people visiting it start somewhere in the Newcastle area.

People from Durham where LNER provide the local service alongside TPE or XC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huh? There is nothing simpler than a ticket that enables a customer to use any train they wish to use that’s going in the direction they wish to travel.

How much flexibility would you offer? How do you avoid creating anomalies with it?

And the NRCOC doesn‘t appear to supper fining customers who don’t have reservations.

At present. But if there was major fares reform in this direction, most likely penalties would be introduced for joining a compulsory reservation train without a reservation.

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People from Durham where LNER provide the local service alongside TPE or XC?

I don't get the concern about it being full for those journeys, because it odds-on won't be. People travelling from London will get off at intermediate stations as well as go all the way to Edinburgh, and that will free up seats for local travel.

 

[Kite159]

It's not. The ticket says on it what it's valid on. There is no scope for argument, confusion or anything. Everyone knows how airline ticketing works, this is the same

Considering how many people get confused with advance tickets before Covid.

"What do you mean it's only valid on the 19:00 departure and not the 15:00/18:30/19:30 etc departure?"
Or when someone buys an advance for say a Northern train from Preston to Manchester and tries using it on a late running TPE service

Trains are not the same as airlines, so stop trying to make that comparison

I don't get the concern about it being full for those journeys, because it odds-on won't be. People travelling from London will get off at intermediate stations as well as go all the way to Edinburgh, and that will free up seats for local travel.

"Sorry you can't travel on this 9/10 coach train for the 10 minute local journey because you didn't make a seat reservation, even though in pre Covid times you wouldn't mind standing for that short local distance, at least you can board unlike the TPE or XC service"

Instead those passengers will simply drive or use the bus, both don't require prior planning into determining which services you will be using for the benefit of getting a seat reserved for the 10 minutes journey