Mixed carriage formations among the Big Four & earlier

[StephenHunter]

Having seen a picture of WMR and EMR 170s coupled up, I'm wondering if there were ever cases in the Grouping era of formations where more than one of the Big Four were represented? Say a LMS loco hauling LNER stock?

Would it have been common pre-grouping too?

 

[36270k]

It was common for LMS and LNER stock to run on through trains from the North to the South West on summer Saturdays.
Often changing locos at Bristol

 

[StephenHunter]

It was common for LMS and LNER stock to run on through trains from the North to the South West on summer Saturdays.
Often changing locos at Bristol

To GWR?

 

[Snow1964]

There were also joint lines like Somerset and Dorset, the Midland (later LMS) supplied rolling stock, but not uncommon to see a Southern loco assisting

 

[Waldgrun]

If you look at accident reports, they give a lot of information, the Abermule crash in Jan 1921 had rolling stock from the Cambrian (4 vehicles), G.W.R. ( 1 vehicle) and L.N.W.R. (8 vehicles). Both locos where from the Cambrian.

 

[30907]

To GWR?

Yes. Locos tended to be changed at or near company boundaries, though not always but stock would run through.

There were also joint lines like Somerset and Dorset, the Midland (later LMS) supplied rolling stock, but not uncommon to see a Southern loco assisting

Or the other way round: the SR provided the stock for the "main line" locals, but the LMS the locos. Interestingly, I don't think the SR provided stock for the long distance services via the S&D, whereas other cross-country trains alternated SR and GW/LMS/LNE.
One that surprised me in the BR era (1960, so OT, sorry) was a summer Sunday evening Bournemouth-Waterloo (and back after midnight to Poole) which alternate weeks was WR stock. Doubt it was ever photographed

More interesting in some ways were trains composed of two or more companies' coaches (as in Waldgrun's Abermule example). E.g. there were Penzance-Glasgow (overnight) and Plymouth-Glasgow (day) through coaches which were attached to WCML expresses north of Crewe. AFAIK these were always GW stock.

 

[ac6000cw]

From memory of reading accident reports of the day, the pre-grouping West and East coast companies also operated joint-stock fleets for some trains.

 

[topydre]

There's a black&white photo of Merthyr Tydfil station in the National Library of Wales with a coach marked LNER in one of the platforms

 

[Taunton]

The troop train running Edinburgh to Liverpool that was involved in the Quintinshill accident in 1915 was formed of Great Central stock. There were payments from one company to the other for the use of stock, but commonly the balance between any two would be adjusted over time to even out without payment either way. The Railway Clearing House managed this - and for freight wagons even more so.

The Somerset & Dorset Joint had its own locos (and numbering sequence) and carriages, in its own blue livery, until 1930, when losses led to the end of independence, there was a division of the various responsibilities between the two owners, the locos thereafter being LMS types and the carriages being supplied by the Southern, so all their local trains were mixed ownership. This lasted right through, with LMR locos and SR green stock, until the line closed in 1966.

 

[hexagon789]

The LNER ran a through coach from Aberdeen to Plymouth jointly with the GWR. There was also the long-standing York-Bournemouth joint service running I believe via the GCR & Banbury iirc

 

[Springs Branch]

Anyone know what was the situation on the LMS & GWR joint line between Chester and Birkenhead Woodside?

This line had regular express trains between Paddington & Birkenhead, presumably operated by some of the GWR's premium long-distance rolling stock.
Was it a case of a GWR loco from London to Chester (where the train reversed) followed by LMS haulage from Chester to Birkenhead?

The wiki article on Birkenhead Woodside station mentions regular through trains to/from the Kent coast and (in summer) Bournemouth which saw green Southern Railway carriages putting in an appearance at Birkenhead on alternate days - presumably hauled first by the SR, then GWR loco(s) and finally LMS.

There's at least one book dedicated to the joint lines north of Chester (The Birkenhead Railway: LMS & GW Joint by T. B. Maund), but I don't have a copy.

 

[oldman]

There were all-year Liverpool-Newcastle trains which would change engines en route - one reference has a Patriot being replaced by LNER 10000 (which stalled) at Leeds. And LNER trains to the highland line which would have been attached to LMS trains at Perth.

 

[matchmaker]

A 1888 train on the Highland Railway from Perth to Inverness was recorded as containing coaches from nine different companies!

 

[Gloster]

Anyone know what was the situation on the LMS & GWR joint line between Chester and Birkenhead Woodside?

This line had regular express trains between Paddington & Birkenhead, presumably operated by some of the GWR's premium long-distance rolling stock.
Was it a case of a GWR loco from London to Chester (where the train reversed) followed by LMS haulage from Chester to Birkenhead?

The wiki article on Birkenhead Woodside station mentions regular through trains to/from the Kent coast and (in summer) Bournemouth which saw green Southern Railway carriages putting in an appearance at Birkenhead on alternate days - presumably hauled first by the SR, then GWR loco(s) and finally LMS.

There's at least one book dedicated to the joint lines north of Chester (The Birkenhead Railway: LMS & GW Joint by T. B. Maund), but I don't have a copy.

Without being absolutely certain, I think that GWR/WR trains between Chester and Birkenhead, including the Paddingtons, were mostly worked by 51XX tanks. Larger tender locos (47XX, Halls and Granges) could reach the GWR’s Birkenhead shed, but they were mostly used on fast freights.

 

[Taunton]

Anyone know what was the situation on the LMS & GWR joint line between Chester and Birkenhead Woodside?

This line had regular express trains between Paddington & Birkenhead, presumably operated by some of the GWR's premium long-distance rolling stock.
Was it a case of a GWR loco from London to Chester (where the train reversed) followed by LMS haulage from Chester to Birkenhead?

The wiki article on Birkenhead Woodside station mentions regular through trains to/from the Kent coast and (in summer) Bournemouth which saw green Southern Railway carriages putting in an appearance at Birkenhead on alternate days - presumably hauled first by the SR, then GWR loco(s) and finally LMS.

There's at least one book dedicated to the joint lines north of Chester (The Birkenhead Railway: LMS & GW Joint by T. B. Maund), but I don't have a copy.

Trains on the Birkenhead Joint were handled by both companies' locos; through trains by locos and stock of the respective company (there were London services to both Euston via Crewe and Paddington via Wrexham), and local trains, including the various branches, by a 50-50 split. Birkenhead loco depot was divided in two equal halves between the two companies. In 1950 it had 41 ex-GWR and 50 ex-LMS locos allocated. Chester had two separate sheds, one for each company.

Because at nationalisation it fell into the LMR, the former GW locos were eventually replaced by LMR types.

 

[geoffk]

Not all companies' stock could be mixed. In pre-grouping days, both the vacuum and Westinghouse air brake were in use on passenger stock and some locos had to be dual-braked to allow them to pull stock of "foreign" companies which used the other system, e.g. certain GWR locos were Westinghouse-fitted to haul LBSCR stock on trains between Brighton and Bristol or Cardiff. The GE section of the LNER and later BR kept the Westinghouse system on suburban services because it was effective for suburban work, as did the Isle of Wight railways.

 

[Journeyman]

Not all companies' stock could be mixed. In pre-grouping days, both the vacuum and Westinghouse air brake were in use on passenger stock and some locos had to be dual-braked to allow them to pull stock of "foreign" companies which used the other system, e.g. certain GWR locos were Westinghouse-fitted to haul LBSCR stock on trains between Brighton and Bristol or Cardiff. The GE section of the LNER and later BR kept the Westinghouse system on suburban services because it was effective for suburban work, as did the Isle of Wight railways.

Didn't this also extend to the different types of gangway in use? I believe various types of adapter were available, though.

 

[matchmaker]

Didn't this also extend to the different types of gangway in use? I believe various types of adapter were available, though.

Suspended and scissors gangways could connect directly. An adaptor was required to connect to Pullman gangways.