journey breaking...kind of

[finlays mam]

Hi all,

i am past myself trying to solve this and talking to call centres is getting me nowhere or rather not the answer i want to hear...can u lovely people help and advise me?

I have booked 3 return tickets from newcastle to london kings cross for a saturday returning sunday in november and they are advance bookings.the call centre person couldnt understand i wanted 3 tickets together but that my mam would join the train in darlington so it was just easier to book 3 from newcastle on line afterall i thought i was paying more for the journey!!. i didnt realise at the time the issues with 'journey breaking' and that mam would need a ticket to get thru the barriers at darlington....are you all following?!!

i have spoken to a call centre this morning and because its advance booking i have to book another journey for my mam from darlington with no guarentee she will be sat with us and i am not entitled to a refund...flippin heck, why is it so complicated when you try to do something that makes life easier for your family???!!!

what do i do...she is a senior citizen and this was supposed to be a birthday trip for her and instead it's a pain!

i hope someone can come up with a solution other than having to book another ticket.

thanks, Debbie

 

[cuccir]

Afraid that the system won't let you get round this one: it's a condition of the advance ticket. I guess you probably don't feel up for battling these conditions?

To fully comply with all terms and conditions, your gran should buy a ticket Darlington to Newcastle, and then travel up to Newcastle to get the booked train at the correct time. If this is feasible, then even though it is a little silly, it is the most straight forward for you. Alternatively, you could get her to buy a Darlington-Newcastle single ticket (which would get her through the barriers) and then board the booked train at Darlington. This would seem to be a reasonable compromise as she would have paid the appropriate fare for her journey, without having to go through the hassle of undertaking a pointless trip.

There is no such thing as Darlington-Newcastle return (yes it is unfair) unless you're coming and going the same day. So you'd also need to pick up a Newcastle-Darlington single valid for the date of your return for her to get out at Darlington. All of this would cost you £15.60 in total.

 

[wibble]

The basic rule with Adance tickets is that you must travel on the journey dates and times specified on your ticket. You won't get any refund on your tickets if you decide you no longer want/need them. This should be explained to you before they take your card details - if not, you have cause to complain.

If your mum has a ticket from Newcastle to London, and back again, that is the journey she should make. *If* she is caught boarding or alighting at Darlington with here Advance tickets, she would have to pay the difference between the cost of her Advance fare and the normal single fare (i.e. the more expensive flexible ticket).

Your mum will need a ticket to pass through the ticket gates at Darlington, which is very simple to sort out....

 

[finlays mam]

thank you for your reply..

can i purchase a ticket darlington to york return...? would that be possible? that way she gets thru the barriers and then her ticket is still valid to london?

Debbie
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
my problem is...i'm too honest and i would be terrified we would be caught out somewhere along the line...*BIG sigh*

 

[wintonian]

Unfortunately no because with your advance purchases ticket you are only allowed to join the train at the station and time specified on the ticket (the same coming back, you would need to get off the train at the station and service stated on the ticket), not doing so could make you liable to pay the full standard peak single fare from York (in this case) less the cost of the advance ticket.

If you fancy a read and assuming you are traveling with East Coast the terms and conditions are here

 

[tony_mac]

I would take the tickets to the station and speak to a human being - they may well be able to help you.

In particular, they should make allowances for people with mobility problems - I assume that your mam would prefer to board at Darlington because the journey to Newcastle, and managing the large station there, would be difficult for her?

 

[mfc3024]

I can see the business knowledge behind the rule (to stop people booking fares from earlier stations on the route for less) however it is another rule that makes rail travel and the purchase of tickets difficult.

I had the same situation when a friend of mine had to travel to Dundee from Motherwell (taking almost 3 hours including connection time) to get an East Coast train to London - my friend could have joined the same train at Edinburgh by connecting on another East Coast train and changing at Waverley. I wrote to East Coast and got a call from them (not sure who I spoke to) and they would not budge.

The railway industry needs to put passengers first - this rule puts the train companies first. I agree with Tony mac, if you speak to a staff member in person as opposed to by phone you may get someone that puts common sense first.

 

[Zoe]

If your mum has a ticket from Newcastle to London, and back again, that is the journey she should make. *If* she is caught boarding or alighting at Darlington with here Advance tickets, she would have to pay the difference between the cost of her Advance fare and the normal single fare (i.e. the more expensive flexible ticket).

Would it not be the same as the guy that alighted early and was charged the full Standard Anytime Single for the journey?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If your mum has a ticket from Newcastle to London, and back again, that is the journey she should make. *If* she is caught boarding or alighting at Darlington with here Advance tickets, she would have to pay the difference between the cost of her Advance fare and the normal single fare (i.e. the more expensive flexible ticket)....

Would it not be the same as the guy that alighted early and was charged the full Standard Anytime Single for the journey?

If she is caught onboard the train, that is what would be expected of her as she does not hold a valid ticket for her journey. If the Guard/RPI believes it is a genuine attempt to avoid paying the 'correct' fare it could get worse for her.

I would advise calling Cross Country and see what they can do for you, they may tell you to buy a new ticket or they may change it for you, but it is a lot less risky than chancing it.

 

[cuccir]

thank you for your reply..

can i purchase a ticket darlington to york return...? would that be possible? that way she gets thru the barriers and then her ticket is still valid to london?

Debbie
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
my problem is...i'm too honest and i would be terrified we would be caught out somewhere along the line...*BIG sigh*

It would certainly be possible, but I'd argue that your best bet is to buy tickets for the Darlington-Newcastle set - your mother would therefore have a set of tickets for a valid journey (Darlington > Newcastle single, Newcastle > London single, London > Newcastle single, Newcastle > Darlington single), though she would not actually complete the unnecessary parts. I should point out in giving this advice that in getting on late/off early she would technically be using the advance ticket incorrectly, despite the fact that at all points in her journey she would hold a valid ticket.

-----

I would advise calling Cross Country and see what they can do for you, they may tell you to buy a new ticket or they may change it for you, but it is a lot less risky than chancing it.

I presume the company is East Coast for this ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh yes silly me, mind on other things, I should have said EC.

 

[MikeWh]

This is not legal advice, but ...

Darlington is the station that Prof Evans allighted at in his case where East Coast cancelled the additional fare that he was issued an UPFN for. Not sure if it's relevant, but East Coast have set some sort of recent precedent.

We have recently had a discussion about exactly your sort of situation where a person holds tickets for A-C (advance) and C-B but allights at B on the first train. The outcome at the end of the discussion IIRC was that a TOC would find it very difficult to defend this scenario in court. This scenario is actually your return journey, the outward one is in reverse but the same logic applies.

Stressing again that this is not legal advice, I would be inclined to consider having all three tickets (New-Lon) with me and sending mum the extra (Dar-New) ticket so that she could get into Darlington. When tickets are checked between Newcastle and Darlington say that your mum is elsewhere (toilet/buffet). On the return there will be less problems because the TM is unlikely to notice/worry that she's left early and she'll have a ticket (New-Dar) to exit the station at Darlington.

Sorry to say it again, but this is only what I might consider doing and is not guaranteed to avoid any legal challenge. However, if the TM were to want to charge a new ticket to your mum you should accept an unpaid fare notice (UPFN) which gives you 21 days to pay. Then write to East Coast explaining that your mum had tickets to cover all her legal journeys and see what they say. I would not be at all surprised if they cancelled the UPFN as they did to the professor last month.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, for the future, if you go to a station and ask to book seats Newcastle-London with an extra one alongside to join at Darlington then they should be able to do that for you.

 

[clagmonster]

If she is caught onboard the train, that is what would be expected of her as she does not hold a valid ticket for her journey. If the Guard/RPI believes it is a genuine attempt to avoid paying the 'correct' fare it could get worse for her.

I believe that the excess should be charged as per condition 16 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The relevent paragraph is:
"If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

It is made crystal clear in the advance ticket conditions that a journey using an advance ticket may not be started at an intermediate station, so I believe that said paragraph applies. I would be interested to see anything which contradicts this, however.

I would also point out that if a day single Darlington-Newcastle is bought, the only way use the day single to get round the problem is to go via Newcastle using both tickets. Anything else would go against the advance ticket conditions and would actually provide, in my opinion, evidence of deliberate fare evasion, which as HHF says could lead to a lot worse consequences.

 

[Zoe]

It is made crystal clear in the advance ticket conditions that a journey using an advance ticket may not be started at an intermediate station, so I believe that said paragraph applies. I would be interested to see anything which contradicts this, however.

If that's the case then why was the professor treated as though he had no ticket?

 

[MichaelAMW]

Hi all,


I have booked 3 return tickets from newcastle to london kings cross for a saturday returning sunday in november and they are advance bookings.the call centre person couldnt understand i wanted 3 tickets together but that my mam would join the train in darlington so it was just easier to book 3 from newcastle on line afterall i thought i was paying more for the journey!!. i didnt realise at the time the issues with 'journey breaking' and that mam would need a ticket to get thru the barriers at darlington....are you all following?!!

thanks, Debbie

It would appear that the OP's 'crime' resulted from her somewhat reasonable desire to have them all sitting together. In practice, is there a straightforward way of achieving this? One option, I guess, is simply to book three more seats, just as a plain reservation, but it really shouldn't be all that awkward... or am I expecting too much...?

Michael.

 

[attics26]

Debbie, private message sent.

 

[MikeWh]

I've had another thought while picking up my sons from school. Can you take the tickets and reservations into a main station (eg Newcastle) and explain that you need to amend one of them to be just a Darlington to London and vice versa, but keeping the same trains and seats. You'll have to pay the admin fees, but hopefully that will be all as even if the price of advances from Darlington to London has risen a bit it may still be below what you paid for Newcastle to London.

 

[wintonian]

I think you can only change the date or time on an advance ticket not the stations on it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We have recently had a discussion about exactly your sort of situation where a person holds tickets for A-C (advance) and C-B but allights at B on the first train. The outcome at the end of the discussion IIRC was that a TOC would find it very difficult to defend this scenario in court. This scenario is actually your return journey, the outward one is in reverse but the same logic applies.

Stressing again that this is not legal advice, I would be inclined to consider having all three tickets (New-Lon) with me and sending mum the extra (Dar-New) ticket so that she could get into Darlington. When tickets are checked between Newcastle and Darlington say that your mum is elsewhere (toilet/buffet). On the return there will be less problems because the TM is unlikely to notice/worry that she's left early and she'll have a ticket (New-Dar) to exit the station at Darlington.

My opinion in the specific case of the journey A -> C holding a ticket for A -> C and another for the return from C -> B with the passenger simply alighting early at B was that the requirement to complete the journey to C and back again was unenforceable in law.
However, whilst the same logic applies by starting late (at Darlo) and holding an unused ticket for Darlo -> Newcastle to allow mother to alight at Darlo doesn't quite have the same contractural force. (for more detail, see below)

I think MikeWh's advice is as close as you're going to get to a work-around, but as he cautions, it isn't guaranteed to get your mother through without some sort of challenge by the nice folk at Darlingon station.

However, if you haven't been fortunate enough to have any more sympathetic assistance from NE staff so far (and perhaps you have), I'd suggest giving them another go. If you walk into Newcastle Station with the tickets and go to one of the "travel for future dates" windows and explain your full story (and then make the offer of buying a Darlo-Newcastle single just to complete the paid-for contract) then you might have some better luck than you did on the 'phone.

Please let us know how you get on.

[For those interested in my analysis of why the example of travelling A -> B with an Advance ticket for A -> C and an Anytime for the return leg of C -> B you could read this thread. There, I explained that if the passenger had bought both tickets as part of a single transaction, and then wanted to alight at "B" (without doing the doubling back trip to C and back again) that the TOC(s) had fulfilled their contractural oligation to convey the passenger on reaching "B" and that the passenger's contract does not compel them to travel. Consequently, there can be no compulsion for the passenger to make the unnecessary additional return trip B -> C -> B.
In this case, the passenger wishes to board at a mid-point in the journey permitted by their Advance ticket, but as the TOC(s) have not yet begun to convey the passenger at that point, they are fully able to enforce the T&Cs of the Advance and refuse the passenger to board - effectively attempting to board the wrong train as their Advance ticket for the double-back would be leaving that station in the opposite direction! The crucial difference in this case, the second example, is that the journey has not yet begun and so the obligations on the TOC to convey the passenger have not yet begun either, but when they do, they can be tested against the conditions (and found to be invalid).
This analysis is for those with an interest in the contractural relations - the OP should follow the advice given by others!].

 

[yorkie]

I think Mike has said what I was thinking. I agree it's very similar to finishing short. Indeed starting/finishing short are lumped together with break of journey. However I also agree with Dave that it's quite different in terms of enforceability.

It would appear that the OP's 'crime' resulted from her somewhat reasonable desire to have them all sitting together. In practice, is there a straightforward way of achieving this? One option, I guess, is simply to book three more seats, just as a plain reservation, but it really shouldn't be all that awkward... or am I expecting too much...?

Michael.

Now this is interesting, as I got tickets for myself, DaveNewcastle and John @ Home all on the same EC service, joining at NCL, YRK & DON. This was an online only promotion. The price was the same from any point. I tried to do this "by the book" and booked us from our origin stations, despite doing this in ONE TRANSACTION and requesting a table it put us in different carriages/seats scattered across the train.

I asked at York station and they REFUSED to change them unless I paid £30 in admin fees (the original tickets were something like £8 or £10 each)!!!

On the train, the guard would have been fine with us all booking from NCL (no, it wasn't one of the infamous ones! This was a genuinely nice guard!) but was happy for us to swap seats, we found an unreserved table in the buffet car.

OK so we weren't a family, but what if we had been?

*Is it right for EC to ask for double the money to sit people together?
*Would it have been right if the guard had made us sit away from each other, against our wishes when we booked the tickets together?
*Would it have been right for us to book them all from Newcastle and join 'late'?

I would specifically be interested to know what a guard, travelling on a different TOC to their own, with family joining at different places, would do and what their expectations would be as I would genuinely be interested to know.

FTR if it was a family in the above scenario with kids forced to sit away from parents, I'd advise them to go to the media (sorry EC but until you revise your practices you are leaving yourself open to bad press, and quite frankly, until you revise your practices you cannot expect otherwise).

(My issue is with the system and I appreciate staff on the ground who, nearly always, display common sense, anyone who wishes to answer this but not publicly, I welcome a PM!)

 

[MikeWh]

Just a small point, yorkie. If parents and children were joining at different stations I think there would be wider issues than EC forcing them to sit apart. The only scenario I can think of might be kids having stayed at grandparents joining a train with their parents already on board, but with the grandparents simply making sure that they met up ok. Most normal tickets (Advance, Anytime, etc) can just as easily be bought from a station [as we all wish thetrainline would make clear in their ads] where I believe the staff have greater control over which seats are chosen.

However, it would definitely be good for all train companies to allow proper selection of seats online in the same way that I believe XC do allow.

@DaveNewcastle: Thank you for clarifying the difference between the two scenarios. I now agree that there is definitely a difference. Having said that, were a case of starting late with a suitable unused ticket to travel back to the proper start point ever to go to court, I hope that there would be a good chance that the judge/magistrate might rule in the customers favour.

 

[Failed Unit]

I have booked something similar on the phone ok. 3 people from Dundee and 2 from Glasgow who joined the ex-Aberdeen train at Waverley. No problem. Booking offices can do the same as they can select the seats easier. Typically they will find a free table book the 2 and write down the details. They will then book the other person and select the other seat around the table. Booking offices seem to have more choice if you want seat 33 you can have as long as someone hasn't got there first. The downside is no online discount. Not really fair but possibly cheaper than buying a single to double back.

 

[penaltyfines]

I don't think we have to worry about guards making people sit apart, as they'd be told to take a running jump

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If parents and children were joining at different stations I think there would be wider issues than EC forcing them to sit apart. . . .

I agree. All Guards and Train Managers have the authority to remove or change the seat reservations in the light of circumstances, and if necesary, to ask a passenger sitting in their correct reserved seat to move to another.
In this example, the duty of care of conveying a child or a person with care needs would be an excellent example of the guard/TM changing the seat allocations to unite passengers who ought to be travelling together.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think we have to worry about guards making people sit apart, as they'd be told to take a running jump

I agree that common sense says to allow it, and the vast majority of guards do show common sense (we tend to hear about the ones that don't!) but the rules say you must sit in your allocated seat, and there are some people who are obsessed with following rules to the letter irrespective of anything else (no names mentioned but I have some names in mind ). If just one of those people becomes a guard, then there is a potential problem, and the next negative news story waiting to be written....

 

[MichaelAMW]

Now this is interesting, as I got tickets for myself, DaveNewcastle and John @ Home all on the same EC service, joining at NCL, YRK & DON. This was an online only promotion. The price was the same from any point. I tried to do this "by the book" and booked us from our origin stations, despite doing this in ONE TRANSACTION and requesting a table it put us in different carriages/seats scattered across the train.

I asked at York station and they REFUSED to change them unless I paid £30 in admin fees (the original tickets were something like £8 or £10 each)!!!

[/I]

That strikes me as really quite naughty! You're only actually asking for a new seat reservation, which I believe is only a pound or two for up to four, when booked together. (Is that still the case?) £10 is the price to change the date and/or time you're travelling. Given that we are encouraged to book online - the TOCs probably couldn't cope any more if we all reverted to buying at the station - the least they can do is act fairly when something needs sorting out that is merely the hsortcoming of the online booking system.

I have to say that, in their favour, my London TOC EMT doesn't seem to mind in the slightest about sitting in the correct seat.

Michael.

 

[craig1975]

if i was you i would buy your mam a cheap ticket from darlington to somewhere near by so she can get on to the platform and join you on the train get a ticket to thornaby or somewhere like that

 

[Welshman]

I agree that common sense says to allow it, and the vast majority of guards do show common sense (we tend to hear about the ones that don't!) but the rules say you must sit in your allocated seat, and there are some people who are obsessed with following rules to the letter irrespective of anything else (no names mentioned but I have some names in mind ). If just one of those people becomes a guard, then there is a potential problem, and the next negative news story waiting to be written....

I hear what you're saying, Yorkie, but I'm appalled some TM/guards may be so punctilious. My experiences of travelling EC have been that provided I'm on the right train, on the right day, in the right class and with my Senior Railcard to hand, they've settled for 4 out of 5, and not worried whether I've been in the right seat!! Admittedly the trains have been off-peak, and not exactly wedged. Once, I did have a conscience about not occupying my reserved seat [an airline seat, adjacent a window pillar, back to travel, when I wanted to book a forward window table seat in the quiet coach!], and removed the reservation ticket when no-one was looking to free-up that seat for someone else, then wondered if I could be fined for unauthorised removal of my own reservation ticket!


To return to the OP, I suppose if she ever wished to repeat this expedition the answer would be for her to book all 3 tickets online from Darlington-KX, and for the two boarding at Newcastle to buy returns Newcastle-Darlington. But that's with hindsight. And the one big problem with hindsight is you never get it before the event.

 

[OwlMan]

if i was you i would buy your mam a cheap ticket from darlington to somewhere near by so she can get on to the platform and join you on the train get a ticket to thornaby or somewhere like that

I wouldn't!! Having a ticket from Darlington to a station other than Newcastle shows a deliberate attempt to break the conditions of the ticket by making a premeditated decision to break the journey at Darlington. ( remember the Professor only got let off as it was not a premediated decision) This would leave you open to prosecution under the byelaws.

Peter

 

[finlays mam]

i havent managed to read everyone's reply yet but i thank you all sooo much for trying to offer advice and suggestions...you are a great bunch of people!

just to say the tickets are actually virgin...so i dont know whether that complicates the situation. I will read everyone's suggestions but i will also head into newcastle this week and speak with a human who i am sure will tell me, for the sake of profits, that i need to book properly...who knows?!!...

thank you all once again and i will let you know the outcome whatever happens!

Debbie