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Can you take bikes on replacement buses?

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CaptainHaddock

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No -you are saying that.

The railways continue profit from the leisure business and carry thousands for that purpose.
The pursuits of the pleasure seekers and the capacity of trains them to carry them has changed.
Kayaks, hand gliders, skis etc. are not carried on trains.
The majority of proper sport cyclists prefer to travel in groups and are fit enough to travel from home.
Some cycle groups meet up at locations where they can park.
Many families festoon their vehicles with their bikes.
The train is not an alternative for any of these.
I actually live on the A57 going into the Peak District from Sheffield.

There are some who need to use a bike and a train for work, education or social activities. They live there. The train is an hourly(even two hourly) service on the Hope Valley line.

Is there not a duty for a subsidised local railway to meet the needs of the locals throughout the year rather than tired pleasure seekers?

Combining bike with bus/train/tram is a leisure activity. The best way to do it is with a folding bike.
Looking forward to catching the new X57 and whizzing down on my Brompton from Snake summit down to Glossop across to New Mills Central - Rock Tavern then Edale- the Rambler all for £6 70 Derbyshire Wayfarer.

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Yes - was it you who stuck their brolly through my spokes on the platform at Charing Cross?
Perhaps the solution would be to have security staff at both Sheffield and Manchester and only passengers who can prove they have a Hope Valley postcode will be allowed to take their bike on the stopper?
 
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Bletchleyite

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We also have a dense railway network across much of England - or have we now moved the goalposts so that we're only talking about bikes on buses in outlying rural areas?

It's certainly my view, and it does seem to be some others' as well, that bikes on city buses are a bit pointless because you can cycle faster than a city bus, but regional buses that fill gaps in the railway network (like say the X5, which does carry two bikes underneath) are a bit different. I think that's the same with RRBs to some extent - no point putting your bike on a Merseyrail RRB because you'll cycle it quicker, but say a Liverpool to Manchester fast RRB might be quite different.

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Perhaps the solution would be to have security staff at both Sheffield and Manchester and only passengers who can prove they have a Hope Valley postcode will be allowed to take their bike on the stopper?

Or perhaps there isn't actually a problem, or at least not one that wouldn't be solved by making the bike places reservable and perhaps adding better bike storage facilities at the local stations?

The railway has had basically the same bike policy on most routes since the early 1990s, that's about 30 years ago. If it's lasted that long, is there actually a major problem here, other than that some people are just anti-bike?
 

biko

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I have been to the Netherlands and seem the bicycle parking there, but I have my doubts whether something like that would work here. I think unless the parking was properly secured and staffed, someone would come and steal your cycle, or your lights, wheels, or whatever wasn’t bolted down. It seems to be fair game in the UK that your bicycle components will get stolen, which is a huge factor in me cycling less, because it is fiddly and time consuming to remove GPS, lights etc and lock frame and both wheels. Maybe the dutch are just more honest?
Theft happens in the Netherlands too. But you can choose in many cases to use a locker or for secured parking at major stations. The trick for unstaffed locations is to have an old bicycle with an additional lock around the saddle to make sure it isn't removed. Many students do this (I was until recently one of them). Criminals look at the easiest and most expensive targets so it's a case of making sure you're not the easiest target.
Presumably, the Dutch never get tired enough to need a bus ride back, so perhaps that's what we should be doing - no bike facilities whatsoever, you ride your bike out and then ride it back again.
Problem solved.
Many people take bicycles on the train, but just not for commuting. It's not even allowed to take your bicycle on the train in the peak hours. You see bikes on the train mostly in weekends with nice weather. For commuting people have a second bike at the destination station or a folding bike.
 

RJ

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I had a look at my rail replacement driving duty yesterday and it says in bold letters "Non folding bicycles must not be carried". This is consistent with the advice that the TOC puts out to the public.

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Can you clarify your comments about how a PSVAR compliant bus is not compliant when on rail replacements?. Something doesn't sound correct. Thanks.

The PSVAR says certain things about destination display equipment - the size of characters, that it should be illuminated etc. And a bus that has destination displays complies when the certificate is issued. Now that equipment isn't there for decoration - it should be used when the bus is in service.

Now if the destination displays are working, but haven't been prepared for when the bus is in service, does an A4 sheet of paper blu-tacced to the bottom of the windscreen with the destination on it comply with the requirements? I'm not convinced it does.
 

unlevel42

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I actually tried to do things the railway’s way in the past and bought a Brompton folding bicycle. It was a huge mistake. It was very heavy and cumbersome to manoeuvre around the station, difficult to ride and had more than its fair share of mechanical problems. The riding experience is very clunky and unpleasant, and as such I don’t think this style of bicycle can ever be a solution.
You can carry it in a bag over your shoulder.
It has tiny wheels so that you can pull or push it with one hand.
Or just roll it along.
It stands up by itself so you don't have lean it against anything.

I do find that being top heavy its uncomfortable uphill and worn tarmac is a nightmare. Its fine on bridleways and towpaths but does not like mud or uncut grass.
They keep their value so must be popular. If my Brompton rode like yours it would be going back to the dealer.
There are some better folding bikes and you will find places where they, like all bikes, are 20% cheaper.
 

RT4038

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I had a look at my rail replacement driving duty yesterday and it says in bold letters "Non folding bicycles must not be carried". This is consistent with the advice that the TOC puts out to the public.

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The PSVAR says certain things about destination display equipment - the size of characters, that it should be illuminated etc. And a bus that has destination displays complies when the certificate is issued. Now that equipment isn't there for decoration - it should be used when the bus is in service.

Now if the destination displays are working, but haven't been prepared for when the bus is in service, does an A4 sheet of paper blu-tacced to the bottom of the windscreen with the destination on it comply with the requirements? I'm not convinced it does.
I would suggest that, providing the letters on the A4 sheet of paper are at least 125mm in height, are not entirely in capital letters, are in contrast to the paper colour, and the paper is not too thick to be backlit by the vehicle interior lights, it will be compliant. The destination displayed must be a word or words to describe the route or final destination, so 'Rail bus' would probably be acceptable as a minimum.
There are also rules for the provision of similar on the nearside.
There are no rules as to the composition of the Blu-tack.
 

Robertj21a

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I had a look at my rail replacement driving duty yesterday and it says in bold letters "Non folding bicycles must not be carried". This is consistent with the advice that the TOC puts out to the public.

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The PSVAR says certain things about destination display equipment - the size of characters, that it should be illuminated etc. And a bus that has destination displays complies when the certificate is issued. Now that equipment isn't there for decoration - it should be used when the bus is in service.

Now if the destination displays are working, but haven't been prepared for when the bus is in service, does an A4 sheet of paper blu-tacced to the bottom of the windscreen with the destination on it comply with the requirements? I'm not convinced it does.
It's acceptable in the short term. The key issues of PSVAR relate to physical acessibility, notably the ramp and interior fittings, secure bay etc. Other, less critical, issues will not automatically stop it being treated as generally PSVAR compliant. In any event, the destination equipment could be updated to show whatever is necessary.
 

RJ

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It's acceptable in the short term. The key issues of PSVAR relate to physical acessibility, notably the ramp and interior fittings, secure bay etc. Other, less critical, issues will not automatically stop it being treated as generally PSVAR compliant. In any event, the destination equipment could be updated to show whatever is necessary.

Yes - that's what I meant by it's a case of picking and choosing which elements are convenient to comply with.

The regulations aren't only focused on those who use a wheelchair - they also intend to make buses accessible to those who have visual and other mobility impairments and make the service accessible to those aren't familiar with the service. Some people working in transport don't seem to realise that providing poor, non-compliant information on the front of buses excludes a percentage of passengers who are waiting for the service.
 

heart-of-wessex

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I was spare at Trowbridge yesterday and the First Bath bus (Wright's Eclipse) couldn't take 2 bikes, so they got me to run them up to Bath Spa in my coach, as I could put the bikes in the lockers underneath. I was pleased to have a run out, and they liked having a coach to themselves!
 

4REP

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Probably easier if the railways just refused to carry all bikes.
Totally agree. There have been a number of times when people prop bikes against train doors that arrive on the platform at times preventing or denying passengers boarding or leaving the train which can result to Health and safety issues(eg blocking doors if there's a fire etc) Bikes are a nuisance and can be a danger on the railway. A lot of bike owners show disrespect to pedestrians and fellow rail travellers.
They would definitely cause issues on buses but maybe not coaches as there is a trunk.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Yes - that's what I meant by it's a case of picking and choosing which elements are convenient to comply with.

The regulations aren't only focused on those who use a wheelchair - they also intend to make buses accessible to those who have visual and other mobility impairments and make the service accessible to those aren't familiar with the service. Some people working in transport don't seem to realise that providing poor, non-compliant information on the front of buses excludes a percentage of passengers who are waiting for the service.

Is that true of most RRBs, though, given that they tend to be quite heavily marshalled and as such you are directed to the right bus by a person, who can do it for blind people (by talking to them) and deaf people (by pointing at it)?

The most common thing on the displays of RRBs tends to just be "rail replacement".
 

RJ

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Is that true of most RRBs, though, given that they tend to be quite heavily marshalled and as such you are directed to the right bus by a person, who can do it for blind people (by talking to them) and deaf people (by pointing at it)?

The most common thing on the displays of RRBs tends to just be "rail replacement".

The greater majority of rail replacement bus stops in London and the surrounding areas are not staffed and many pick up stops are somewhat remote from the stations.
 

323235

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Totally agree. There have been a number of times when people prop bikes against train doors that arrive on the platform at times preventing or denying passengers boarding or leaving the train which can result to Health and safety issues(eg blocking doors if there's a fire etc) Bikes are a nuisance and can be a danger on the railway. A lot of bike owners show disrespect to pedestrians and fellow rail travellers.
They would definitely cause issues on buses but maybe not coaches as there is a trunk.

You sound like you have a particular dislike bicycles. If they are loaded in the correct part of the train (excluding COVID) then they are generally fine. The problem with the railways these days is partly down to the lack of enforcement of minor bylaw and carriage conditions and also signage too. Some of this is an issue of non-standard stock too.

I noticed for the first time recently that Northern Class 150's have a dedicated cycle area separate to the wheelchair zone but other Northern stock doesn't. The CAF stock are very poorly labelled for such accomedation.

I don't think the health and safety of bikes blocking the doors is much worse than prams but it is more acceptable to target cyclists than parents.

In a fire don't trains normally have exit windows too in case the doors cannot be used? You also have two exit routes on each side - it would very unusual to have bikes blocking 2+ of these.
 

Robertj21a

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You sound like you have a particular dislike bicycles. If they are loaded in the correct part of the train (excluding COVID) then they are generally fine. The problem with the railways these days is partly down to the lack of enforcement of minor bylaw and carriage conditions and also signage too. Some of this is an issue of non-standard stock too.

I noticed for the first time recently that Northern Class 150's have a dedicated cycle area separate to the wheelchair zone but other Northern stock doesn't. The CAF stock are very poorly labelled for such accomedation.

I don't think the health and safety of bikes blocking the doors is much worse than prams but it is more acceptable to target cyclists than parents.

In a fire don't trains normally have exit windows too in case the doors cannot be used? You also have two exit routes on each side - it would very unusual to have bikes blocking 2+ of these.
I would hope that bikes never block any exit route!
 

skyhigh

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I noticed for the first time recently that Northern Class 150's have a dedicated cycle area separate to the wheelchair zone but other Northern stock doesn't. The CAF stock are very poorly labelled for such accomedation.
At least the 150s, 158s, 170s, 195s, 331s and 333s all have separate cycle areas. The CAF stock are being modified to have the same exterior signage for bikes as the rest of the fleet.
 

Bletchleyite

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How will this be affected by banning bikes from trains?

Well, quite.

Most of the arguments against bikes on trains are essentially "I dislike bikes, therefore I don't want them on trains, because I do like trains and them being there offends my eyes".

The solid arguments and easy answers are essentially:
1. It's a limited resource on some* trains -> compulsory reservation** and perhaps a small charge
2. It takes up places where people need to stand/sit -> bikes already aren't allowed on most peak trains so this is not an issue; they are mostly carried on trains that have the space anyway. In conjunction with (1), the railway knows full well which trains are always busy and can't be lengthened, so release 0 places on those
3. Some people block the doors with them -> well, some people block the doors with luggage, too. The solution there is for guards/OBSs (where not DOO, obviously) to insist they are moved to the correct place

* Not on most. Very, very rarely do I see a train with its full cycle capacity taken, even when that's only two. I can't remember the last time I did.
** This also essentially deals with the "angry person turning up unable to board the RRB" issue, as the number of places released on one would be 0, so people wouldn't plan and reserve a journey on one. For emergency RRB a bit of pragmatism is needed by both cyclist and railway to find a solution, e.g. allowing a normally non-Permitted route (including potentially cycling to a different station if able***), giving a free ticket to return and collect from the station another day, providing a taxi that will take the bike to get a stranded person home (but only on a return portion, not an outward one), etc.
*** As Permitted Routes are only relevant to walk-up tickets, this is another thing essentially fixed by single-fare pricing. If I can't travel with my bike, just refund the leg of the journey I can't make, and then I'll cycle to the other station of my choice and purchase one from there instead, much simpler. For seasons it might be easiest to treat failure to carry a cycle as a "100% Delay Repay" situation.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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the simple fact most RRBs are not equipped to carry bicycles due to the way they are built, laid out and operated and therefore carrying bikes cannot be planned for. Yes, there MAY be some vehicle types with useable storage areas that COULD accomodate bikes but they will still not be SUITABLE to carry a bike. If an individual is prepared to accept that the bike is carried at the owners risk and relieving the vehicle operator of any liability, and the coach driver is willing on that clear understanding then fair enough but that is between the driver of the vehicle and the bike owner.

I find it incredible however that this question pops up time and time again and drivers have been subjected to significant abuse from bike owners who cannot be accomodated when it is blatantly obvious that it isn't physically possible to accommodate them. Rail industry advice is simply No Bikes, and for a very good reason, coaches and buses do not have cycle storage areas.
 

RJ

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I find it incredible however that this question pops up time and time again and drivers have been subjected to significant abuse from bike owners who cannot be accomodated when it is blatantly obvious that it isn't physically possible to accommodate them. Rail industry advice is simply No Bikes, and for a very good reason, coaches and buses do not have cycle storage areas.

It’s not just bike owners - there are TOC staff on this forum who have made it clear they would like to get bus drivers blacklisted for not carrying non-folding bikes!
 

lincolnshire

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It’s not just bike owners - there are TOC staff on this forum who have made it clear they would like to get bus drivers blacklisted for not carrying non-folding bikes!
When all said and done its part of the National Conditions of Service for all TOC,s that on rail replacement services that cycles, prams that don,t fold and animals except guide dogs or service dogs are not carried on rail replacement vehicles.
Should we consider instead for example there will be no service between e.g. Doncaster and Sheffield from 23-00 friday evening till 06-00 monday morning due to engineering work closing the railway down. Please make your own alternative arrangements to get between the two locations or just don,t travel till monday. Then you will not have any rail replacement transport problems at all.
Its just a thought.
 

323235

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At least the 150s, 158s, 170s, 195s, 331s and 333s all have separate cycle areas. The CAF stock are being modified to have the same exterior signage for bikes as the rest of the fleet.
Well that's good news because it took me some time to work out where I was supposed to be going when one turned up on the Stoke run on a Sunday.

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I would hope that bikes never block any exit route!

Of course they do, I saw it very regularly pre-COVID but staff often didn't bother to instruct them where to go.
 

DJ_K666

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Ironically in Brighton we have buses on which you can take bikes, but if the same vehicle is operating a rail replacement, you can't take the bikes on board!

Both are Go-Ahead/Govia as well, so they can't even agree internally!
I used to regularly do rail jobs when with Brighton & Hove buses. We did suggest a solution of having a van for bikes which would pick up (labelled) bikes and transfer them to the stations. Unfortunately one of those stations was Durrington, where I would not dream of leaving a bike unattended. Had plenty of arguments though as apart from two double decker our buses were not allowed to carry bikes, and those two buses (660 and 661 iirc) were only allowed to carry them on routes 78 and 79 which were council funded.
 

Clip

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The very act of a passenger attaching the bike to the front of the bus, and removing it at the end of their journey sounds quite hazardous from a risk point of view (of the bus moving and running down the passenger), or of the passenger not attaching the bike securely and it falling off and being run over by the bus.

This doesn't appear to be very practicable at all.
And yet there's loads of places around the world that currently do this. And is it any worse than a parent stepping out into a road at a none traffic light crossing with their pram in front of them?

It does there just excuses as to why not to do something and for RRBs the surely you would make the frames for back and front detachable at the end of their RRB service?

As for internally carrying bikes isn't there a bus company in Edinburgh that has converted some to hold 2 cycles inside or has that idea ended now?
 

Haywain

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I would hope that bikes never block any exit route!
Easily done - people park the bike in the doorway away from the platform without realising that the platform will be at the other side at a subsequent station.
 

RJ

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When all said and done its part of the National Conditions of Service for all TOC,s that on rail replacement services that cycles, prams that don,t fold and animals except guide dogs or service dogs are not carried on rail replacement vehicles.

Indeed. That is something that the policymaker grade has made a decision on.

All said and done, the TOC is the client and the bus operators are the suppliers. If TOCs want bikes carried on buses, they should instruct the bus operators as such and plan a safe way of doing so. Sometimes this does happen but where it doesn't, that is the TOC's choice.

Individual TOC staff intimidating and pressuring drivers to do something they're instructed not to by both the TOC and their employer is not the right way to go about things. Thankfully this isn't something I've ever seen front line staff do.
 
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DJ_K666

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You sound like you have a particular dislike bicycles. If they are loaded in the correct part of the train (excluding COVID) then they are generally fine. The problem with the railways these days is partly down to the lack of enforcement of minor bylaw and carriage conditions and also signage too. Some of this is an issue of non-standard stock too.

I noticed for the first time recently that Northern Class 150's have a dedicated cycle area separate to the wheelchair zone but other Northern stock doesn't. The CAF stock are very poorly labelled for such accomedation.

I don't think the health and safety of bikes blocking the doors is much worse than prams but it is more acceptable to target cyclists than parents.

In a fire don't trains normally have exit windows too in case the doors cannot be used? You also have two exit routes on each side - it would very unusual to have bikes blocking 2+ of these.
Southern stock has the disabled ares that can carry 2 wheelchairs and the 313s have specific bike parking brackets with seat belt type straps.
 

gimmea50anyday

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It’s not just bike owners - there are TOC staff on this forum who have made it clear they would like to get bus drivers blacklisted for not carrying non-folding bikes!

If railway staff are resorting to such behaviour they shoukd be ashamed of themselves and dont deserve to wear the uniform of their employer.

Buses and coaches aren't built to carry bikes. That is not the fault of the vehicle operator. If staff have got a problem with that basic fact take it up with Optare, Plaxton, VDL or Wright!
 

unlevel42

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If a passenger is injured or their property is damaged by an unsecured item belonging to another passenger they can sue the train operator.
The train operator is covered by its own insurance- the insurance is complicated but it basically covers all small claims but large claims may not be covered if the railway company had not met its obligations.

This certainly applied in the recent past as the absolute reason for a refusal by tram operator to even consider carrying bikes i.e. who pays for the additional cost of insurance?

As a former union rep(in a completely different area) I would have to tell a member of the risk they run in such matters of public liability, let alone public safety and I would certainly recommend that passengers take legal action themselves to compensate themselves and protect others in the future from injury.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Most of the arguments against bikes on trains are essentially "I dislike bikes, therefore I don't want them on trains, because I do like trains and them being there offends my eyes".
Indeed. You would think that people on a railway forum, of all places, would know not to make generalisations about out-groups based on their mode of transport, but there you go.
 
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