Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[plymothian]

Does that mean I make good points or type absolute rubbish? Honestly, I can't tell compliments from sarcasm in Forums!

"But last time" from DS:

The guard himself (as many have pointed out to me on this and other forum) said something to to the fact 'but last time'. Now is he was quick to say that to his defence on the day then would he not have given a much detailed account when called in by his superiors for the investigation? The truth is he did not mention 'but last time' because it had no basis as there was no last time. Had he mentioned to his superiors then they would have it on record. You have to report incidents. Also cctv might also be have taken. There was no last time and the guard was plain lazy.

 

[blue sabre]

But it is.
I am aware of how Outlook works with sign offs, having spent a fair amount of time working with it in my previous job.
It is the way the email is being sent that has been changed, with the name in the sign off sometimes being bold, sometimes not, and the emails going from being black text, to blue text, then to a mix of both.

So if someone was faking email, do you not think they would have put more effort in than that? Why change font styles when 90% of emails have that same style? There could be many reasons, maybe one day he accesed the messages using outlook web access, another time he used his office computer, he could have logged in from his home PC that runs a different email client, and maybe even sent some messages from a phone whilst on the move. I'm sorry but I think now accusimg to OP of fraud is way OTT when there are plausible explanations. Why has noone else who asked for a copy of the messages been back to back you up?

 

[Flamingo]

I know from personal experience, that in cases where a complaint is received (not only within the rail industry), that even where the manager says to the member of staff that they acted correctly and there is no case to answer, the reply to the customer will be along the lines of;

"We have spoken to the member of staff, and appropriate action has been taken, we apologise for the incident and will ensure it doesn't happen again, please accept these vouchers as a goodwill gesture"

It's a standard industry response, never tell the customer they are wrong, even when they are. In view of the media coverage, and the various issues involving disability and race in this case, I would be very surprised if Northern Rail said anything that would be seen as controversial, and an apology (even if unwarranted) will be seen by them as the easiest way to make this whole thing go away.

Be honest, who really expected Northern to issue a statement saying "The guard was justified, and the complainant is a vindictive little troublemaker", even if it was the truth.

There has been enough discussion around the case in the rail forums and DS that those who wanted to know the truth do know it, those who believe fairy tales are not going to be persuaded at this stage. Probably best to ignore Tonyaeryan at this stage, he's just proving to be an attention seeking troll. He's had his 15 minutes of fame, let him sink back into obscurity until his next attention seeking stunt. I have a feeling it won't involve the railways, he's discovered too many people know to much to accept his stories at face value.

Time to say game over, and put him on "IGNORE".

 

[Darandio]

So if someone was faking email, do you not think they would have put more effort in than that? Why change font styles when 90% of emails have that same style? There could be many reasons, maybe one day he accesed the messages using outlook web access, another time he used his office computer, he could have logged in from his home PC that runs a different email client, and maybe even sent some messages from a phone whilst on the move. I'm sorry but I think now accusimg to OP of fraud is way OTT when there are plausible explanations. Why has noone else who asked for a copy of the messages been back to back you up?

Forget the faking for a moment and if you already haven't, request the email to be forwarded to you, then take a look at the gaps that are missing, thats where you have to question the integrity.

 

[blue sabre]

Forget the faking for a moment and if you already haven't, request the email to be forwarded to you, then take a look at the gaps that are missing, thats where you have to question the integrity.

I'm sorry but no, the OP is being accused of falsifying email he has received from Northern Rail, that is an accusation too far. I am also not going to ask for a copy of someone's personal emails, I again think that is too much. This has now turned into a witch hunt - don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is more to this than we have been told, and I think the earlier discrepancies and apparent lies from the OP suggest that also. This isn't a playground - I fell I am more than mature enough to not look for reasons to ridicule and humiliate someone at every opportunity.

 

[Darandio]

Indeed, and I am mature also, certainly not resorting to ridiculing and humiliating the guy.

With all due respect to you and your values regarding personal emails, the guy offered the email out to everyone in the first place. If you see the email, you will see that the contents are probably not faked but the parts that are removed mean that nothing matches up.

 

[blue sabre]

Indeed, and I am mature also, certainly not resorting to ridiculing and humiliating the guy.

With all due respect to you and your values regarding personal emails, the guy offered the email out to everyone in the first place. If you see the email, you will see that the contents are probably not faked but the parts that are removed mean that nothing matches up.

I understand what you say, but there are enough discrepancies in his story to begin with - that is proof enough that this shouldn't be taken at face value, without reading any emails at all.

The original implication was that the emails were fabricated, but I'm glad that you don't seem to be going down that route because that would be dangerous territory and put a very sour taste on the thread.

Surely Northern would have an issue with the emails being redistributed, is their nothing in the disclaimer at the end about this?

Edit - Darandio the immature comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just the whole way this thread has gone it seems that some are just looking for reasons and making something out of nothing. Apologies if it offended!

 

[GB]

Surely its time to draw this whole incident to a close?

 

[Darandio]

Surely Northern would have an issue with the emails being redistributed, is their nothing in the disclaimer at the end about this?

Indeed there is so that is an issue for Qamar himself for offering the email out to the public domain.

And I agree GB, it's going nowhere and we will probably never know the full details.

 

[blue sabre]

Surely its time to draw this whole incident to a close?

Well you would think so, or until we can confirm some kind of resolution at least. But there are too many vultures on here who will keep it live until they see a copy of the supposed letter he is going to receive from Northern, just so they can find the slightest issue with it to declare it as fake.

 

[90019]

I understand what you say, but there are enough discrepancies in his story to begin with - that is proof enough that this shouldn't be taken at face value, without reading any emails at all.

The original implication was that the emails were fabricated, but I'm glad that you don't seem to be going down that route because that would be dangerous territory and put a very sour taste on the thread.

I don't believe the emails have been fabricated, but it's fairly obvious they've been edited. In a way, part of me wonders if it's a double bluff - ie, why would someone who is faking something do it so badly?

Of course, there have been emails between the two of them, however, we're not getting the whole story of it, but an edited version to back up his side of the story.

I'm interested to wait and see what there is in this letter though.

 

[Greenback]

But personally, as someone who doubted the posters version of events, I don't believe the email is faked. I don't believe he would go to the trouble of doing such an elaborate faked email conversation. I think had Northern Rail told him to jog on, we'd have never heard from him again.

I agree. I think that the issue of whether this email has been faked or edited is a bit irrelevant tbh.

I know from personal experience, that in cases where a complaint is received (not only within the rail industry), that even where the manager says to the member of staff that they acted correctly and there is no case to answer, the reply to the customer will be along the lines of;

"We have spoken to the member of staff, and appropriate action has been taken, we apologise for the incident and will ensure it doesn't happen again, please accept these vouchers as a goodwill gesture"

It's a standard industry response, never tell the customer they are wrong, even when they are. In view of the media coverage, and the various issues involving disability and race in this case, I would be very surprised if Northern Rail said anything that would be seen as controversial, and an apology (even if unwarranted) will be seen by them as the easiest way to make this whole thing go away.

Be honest, who really expected Northern to issue a statement saying "The guard was justified, and the complainant is a vindictive little troublemaker", even if it was the truth.

Quite right, there is an etiquette in all industries and orgnaisation that requires you never directly say that the complainant is wrong. The nearest I have seen came form a high ranking lawyer in my organisation who said 'your understanding of the legal position is incorrect', and this was only after a very confontational exchange of letters which had run for several months!

Surely its time to draw this whole incident to a close?

Yes. Although I would still like to see any letter that Northern send out!

 

[Geezertronic]

I am with Flamingo, 15 minutes is long enough for this guy. Let him go about his life thinking everybody owes him a favour...

I don't think the email is faked but I agree that he has received the standard corporate response, only Northern and the guard know the real truth despite what emails or letters Qamar gets from them. I do hope the guard isn't forced to apologise though.

 

[blue sabre]

There are a few things that jump out at me from the, somewhat short, email trail.
The first that immediately jumped out is Peter Myers sign off, which is different in every email and completely absent in one of them.
Another thing is the colour of text, which changes from all black to all blue, then to the main text being blue and the sign off being black.
These two seem very odd, especially for a professional company to change it's email style at least 5 times within 1 month.

I also find it a bit odd that his email address is "Pete", but his sign off is "Peter", which is something I've come across very few times when dealing with emails from businesses. Granted it does happen though, so that part is sort of plausible.

Overall, there's just something not right with it, I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just seems strange that the style of email within Northern is so fluid and changes with every email. It also seems an unusually plain email style overall, espeically for what is a relatively large company.

I don't believe the emails have been fabricated, but it's fairly obvious they've been edited. In a way, part of me wonders if it's a double bluff - ie, why would someone who is faking something do it so badly?

Of course, there have been emails between the two of them, however, we're not getting the whole story of it, but an edited version to back up his side of the story.

I'm interested to wait and see what there is in this letter though.

Your first post implies heavily that you don't believe the emails are genuine.

 

[90019]

Your first post implies heavily that you don't believe the emails are genuine.

Yeah, I didn't really get my point across as I would have liked to.
I shouldn't really have been posting whilst I wasn't properly awake

 

[Greenback]

I was still awake last night at 0110 with a bad stomach; I was reading the thread but didn't post despite being sorely tempted because I would have been incomprehensible at that hour, what with tiredness and being in pain as well!

 

[blue sabre]

Yeah, I didn't really get my point across as I would have liked to.
I shouldn't really have been posting whilst I wasn't properly awake

And I'm sure all the posters who accused him of photoshopping it will come on and use the same excuse. Too many people are trying to pull the OP apart, as soon as their argument is seen as nonsensical they are changing the argument and claiming that wasn't what they meant to say.

Take darandio for example, as soon as the screen shot was published he used the size of the scroll bar as proof it was a doctored image, once it was explained to him why this was the case he has now decided to say they weren't faked, just heavily edited.

Now, say it had been the OP that changed his argument in that way? Would would be said about him?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was still awake last night at 0110 with a bad stomach; I was reading the thread but didn't post despite being sorely tempted because I would have been incomprehensible at that hour, what with tiredness and being in pain as well!

It's an excuse as he is unable to prove what he wanted to last night. He has seen a copy of the messages and the entire conversation so now has decided they weren't faked, but have been heavily doctored instead.

 

[Greenback]

Fair points. I initially kept an open mind about the incident, but I was less than impressed with the way some questions were not answered and avodied.

However, there were so many posts being made that it would have been possible to miss some of them. I am still prepared to consider any new evidence, and I am not so arrogant as to be unable to change my mind. If I do change myu views on production of any new evidence. I haven't yet reached that point though!

 

[90019]

And I'm sure all the posters who accused him of photoshopping it will come on and use the same excuse. Too many people are trying to pull the OP apart, as soon as their argument is seen as nonsensical they are changing the argument and claiming that wasn't what they meant to say.

At no point have I said that they have been faked, as I don't believe they have, though you have interpreted my post as saying this. What I have said is that they don't seem quite right and that it is certainly not the whole story. As far as I'm concerned, looking through them, they appear to have been edited to back up his side of the story.

 

[Greenback]

It is entirely possible that any sections which do not show the preferred story have been removed.

I am thinking that perhaps Northern Rail or Network Rail have reassessed the ue of ramps at Guide Bridge as a result of this complaint, and have now deemed them safe to use after all? Tonyaryan may have wanted to remove something like that as it shows the gurad was acting correctly according to the npolicies then in use, rather than being lazy.

It's alls econd guessing really, though, isn't it?Perhaps we should just wait and see if anything else develops?

 

[90019]

Now, say it had been the OP that changed his argument in that way? Would would be said about him?

The same that has been said when he has changed it.

If the OP could provide definitive proof of his side of the story, then he would be believed, however, he has not been able to, and his story has changed multiple times when challenged by people on various parts of it.

 

[blue sabre]

At no point have I said that they have been faked, as I don't believe they have, though you have interpreted my post as saying this. What I have said is that they don't seem quite right and that it is certainly not the whole story. As far as I'm concerned, looking through them, they appear to have been edited to back up his side of the story.

Well if you say that is what you meant I'm not going to question it, although I do have my doubts. I have not seen, nor do I have any interest in seeing, the emails the op is referrimg to. These were private messages that he should not have been pushed to put in the public domain. This thread went too far as soon as the demands for the screenshot and subsequent demands for the forwardings began.
I understand that oppinions can change given the informatoon to hand, and some people can pick a fight with out knowing their facts, but since the messages have surfaced - be they real or not - not one person who claimed they were a photoshop have came back and admitted they were incorrect, but I'm sure they will be back later to try another 'angle'.

 

[Darandio]

Take darandio for example, as soon as the screen shot was published he used the size of the scroll bar as proof it was a doctored image, once it was explained to him why this was the case he has now decided to say they weren't faked, just heavily edited.

No I didn't say it was proof at all!

I said

The right hand slider is worryingly large as well.

This was because Qamar had posted that same piece in an earlier post and someone said they would like to see it for real. From that, I took it that it was the only conversation from that particular email and the right hand slider showed there was more, which when presented with the actual email, there was. The actual email itself is edited, there is no getting away from that fact and I sincerely hope nobody tries to defend that it isn't!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Blue Sabre. Please show me where there were demands that the emails were forwarded? Tonyaryan offered to forward them on.

 

[ukrob]

Well if you say that is what you meant I'm not going to question it, although I do have my doubts. I have not seen, nor do I have any interest in seeing, the emails the op is referrimg to.

To be fair, you aren't really in a position to comment on them then. I haven't seen them either therefore I wouldn't say one way or the other.

I do however believe the OP is more than capable of editing or faking them from viewing his posts in other threads on Digitalspy. He is an attention seeker, pure and simple.

 

[blue sabre]

The same that has been said when he has changed it.

If the OP could provide definitive proof of his side of the story, then he would be believed, however, he has not been able to, and his story has changed multiple times when challenged by people on various parts of it.

But some people are challenging him on issues they dont have the full facts on, or jumping on the bandwagon with others. I dont have a problem with questioning his version of events, but when people dont actually know theor argument well enough themselves - havng paint shop open to save screenshot for example - it stinls of playground tactics and are no better than the op.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While you're at it, take a screenshot of your email from NR (in a window, with your desktop in the background). Because, that is most definitely not the full email and I want some proof you didn't knock it up yourself.

Forgive me if I misunderstand this post, but is this or is this not a demand for a screenshot of the message? Which subsequently led to the email being sent to other board members.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Forgive me if I misunderstand this post, but is this or is this not a demand for a screenshot of the message? Which subsequently led to the email being sent to other board members.

I didn't ask that did I? I asked for an example of where people were demanding that he forward the email to him, considering that he offered.

 

[blue sabre]

I didn't ask that did I? I asked for an example of where people were demanding that he forward the email to him, considering that he offered.

Yes he did offer. Maybe demand was the wrong word to use, request would have been a more accurare choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair, you aren't really in a position to comment on them then. I haven't seen them either therefore I wouldn't say one way or the other.

I do however believe the OP is more than capable of editing or faking them from viewing his posts in other threads on Digitalspy. He is an attention seeker, pure and simple.

I am commenting on the descriptions I am getting from this site. I agree with you on your assesment of the OP I have read the DS threads after seeing them on here. It doesn't mean people can accuse him of anything they want though.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes he did offer. Maybe demand was the wrong word to use, request would have been a more accurare choice.

A hint of hypocrisy?
Perhaps you shouldn't accuse people of changing their stories, making excuses for their mistakes if you are to do the same?

Take darandio for example, as soon as the screen shot was published he used the size of the scroll bar as proof it was a doctored image, once it was explained to him why this was the case he has now decided to say they weren't faked, just heavily edited.

It's an excuse as he is unable to prove what he wanted to last night. He has seen a copy of the messages and the entire conversation so now has decided they weren't faked, but have been heavily doctored instead.

 

[blue sabre]

A hint of hypocrisy?
Perhaps you shouldn't accuse people of changing their stories, making excuses for their mistakes if you are to do the same?

I admit I used the wrong word. The only demands were for screenshots of the message. They are of similar meaning though, and I'm sure a thesarus would back me up, although I cant prove it as I dont have one to hand so I'll refrain from making that assertation until I can back it up.