Could Eurostar gain a bigger network if it merged with Thalys?

[Hey 3]

Would Eurostar gain an expanded network via Thalys? Or would it stay as it is even if the merger goes ahead? Also Eurostar and Thalys cannot afford the merge*.
*=We know Eurostar cannot, but can Thalys and SNCF do it?
I would like the see the merge go ahead and hopefully, if politics doesn't intervene(which it probably will), we can see Eurostar services out of London St Pancras International plus other UK terminals(taking advantage of HS2) with expansion this side of the Eurostar network to Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain and beyond.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Would Eurostar gain an expanded network via Thalys? Or would it stay as it is even if the merger goes ahead? Also Eurostar and Thalys cannot afford the merge*.
*=We know Eurostar cannot, but can Thalys and SNCF do it?
I would like the see the merge go ahead and hopefully, if politics doesn't intervene(which it probably will), we can see Eurostar services out of London St Pancras International plus other UK terminals(taking advantage of HS2) with expansion this side of the Eurostar network to Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain and beyond.

Given that Thalys don't run to Italy, Switzerland, Spain and beyond why would it make any difference to where Eurostar operates?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would Eurostar gain an expanded network via Thalys? Or would it stay as it is even if the merger goes ahead? Also Eurostar and Thalys cannot afford the merge*.
*=We know Eurostar cannot, but can Thalys and SNCF do it?
I would like the see the merge go ahead and hopefully, if politics doesn't intervene(which it probably will), we can see Eurostar services out of London St Pancras International plus other UK terminals(taking advantage of HS2) with expansion this side of the Eurostar network to Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain and beyond.

“Plus other Uk terminals (taking advantage of HS2)...”

You must be new to the speculation game. That is just not going to happen. DfT proved to their own satisfaction that there’s insufficient demand...

 

[Hey 3]

“Plus other Uk terminals (taking advantage of HS2)...”

You must be new to the speculation game. That is just not going to happen. DfT proved to their own satisfaction that there’s insufficient demand...

I said hopefully, not it will or any sort of thing like that.

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Given that Thalys don't run to Italy, Switzerland, Spain and beyond why would it make any difference to where Eurostar operates?

It doesn't run to Spain but it runs to Switzerland and Italy according to Wikipedia.

 

[Aictos]

I said hopefully, not it will or any sort of thing like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2021 ==


It doesn't run to Spain but it runs to Switzerland and Italy according to Wikipedia.

Umm sorry to burst your bottle but just to bring you a dose of reality, Wikipedia makes NO claim that Thalys operates to Italy or Switzerland neither does Eurostar.

They only serve in France:

Paris Nord
Lille Europe
Bourg-Saint-Maurice (Winter only)
Marseille-Saint-Charles (Summer only)

They only serve in Germany:

Aachen Hbf
Köln Hbf / Cologne
Düsseldorf Hbf
Duisburg Hbf
Dortmund Hbf

They only serve in Netherlands:

Amsterdam Centraal
Schiphol Airport
Rotterdam Centraal
Antwerpen Centraal

They only serve in Belgium:

Bruxelles Midi
Liege

What you were reading was a article on HS1 which showed that various companies were interested in setting up operations such as Renfe, Veolio, Getlink, SNCF, Lisea and Deutsche Bahn because stating a interest in running operations is very much different to actually running a operation, just ask Grand Central....

​

As to both companies working together, I believe they will work together using the airline codesharing model whereas you would book a ticket on either Thalys or Eurostar websites and they block book seats on the other's services so you could book a ticket from London St Pancras to Dortmund Hbf via Brussels and it would be a guaranteed connection or put on the next available service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thalys is the international operator using LGV Nord in France, HSL 2/3/4 in Belgium and HSL Zuid in the Netherlands.
It shares its Paris-Lille-Brussels-Amsterdam route with Eurostar, and the two operators have other synergies.
SNCF has a controlling share of both operators, but the NMBS/SNCB interest is critical to both operations.
Thalys seasonally works (or used to work) to other parts of France and to Geneva via LGV Sud-Est (ditto Eurostar to Avignon/Marseille).
There is currently no rail competition on its routes, but open access is possible on all cross-border routes, and also domestically depending on local legislation.

The driver really is what SNCF wants to do with its assets, together with the Belgian influence which is substantial.
SNCF has traditionally divided up its international routes by different branding, but might want to unify its branding going forward.
This is especially important if the long-standing joint operations are ended by competition on some routes (eg with Trenitalia to Italy).
I should think all this is fairly unstable at the moment with SNCF refinancing and reconstruction in progress, plus Covid, but we shall see.
France clearly regards these links as key parts of its image and influence across the EU.
Services to London, post Brexit, are in another, more commercial, category, I would have thought, despite the obvious operational synergies.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....Or would it stay as it is even if the merger goes ahead? Also Eurostar and Thalys cannot afford the merge*.
*=We know Eurostar cannot, but can Thalys and SNCF do it? ..........

Eurostar are in severe financial difficulty, but that doesn't mean they "cannot afford the merger", as you put it.
Thalys is also in financial difficulty, as a result of the pandemic.
The financial problems, as bad as they are, are merely holding up proceedings.
Once they are resolved and some "normality" can be resumed, I'd expect the merger to progress as originally planned.
Note: SNCF are the major shareholder of both and by consent of the other shareholders, are the controlling authority for Eurostar.

Would Eurostar gain an expanded network via Thalys? Or would it stay as it is ......

The whole point of the merger (project Green Speed), is to create a combined operator which encompasses the operations of both Thalys and Eurostar.
So rather than Eurostar gaining an expanded network, it will be subsumed into the larger network of the new company.

We don't know what the new operator will be called, or whether they'll retain some or both of the existing operators branding.
We also don't know if it'll lead to more through services from London to new mainland destinations, or whether they just plan to offer coordinated connections and through ticketing.
No doubt we'll find out in due course.



z

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't run to Spain but it runs to Switzerland and Italy according to Wikipedia.

Wikipedia isn't a primary source; sorry to be pedantic but it's not right to say "...according to Wikipedia"

It would be right to say "According to an author on Wikipedia" but that's no different to (say) a forum member saying something. If you can provide a link to, and quote from, a reliable source, that would be great, thanks

 

[biko]

They only serve in Netherlands:

Amsterdam Centraal
Schiphol Airport
Rotterdam Centraal
Antwerpen Centraal

They only serve in Belgium:

Bruxelles Midi
Liege

Just a small correction: Antwerpen is in Belgium.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Last year, Eurostar announced they were looking at introducing a plethora of new routes, one as far as Portugal. This I think, was on the assumption that people were happy to take a much, much longer journey to European destinations by rail rather than get there quickly by plane. I would wager, Eurostar will concentrate on bolstering its Amsterdam services, then maybe reinforce its South of France services. I would absolutely love Eurostar to go to Spain but with this pandemic, we can probably only dream.

With the merger however, would it make a London to Frankfurt service more likely? It could provide a useful domestic link between Lille and Germany and replace a Thalys service.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Last year, Eurostar announced they were looking at introducing a plethora of new routes, one as far as Portugal. This I think, was on the assumption that people were happy to take a much, much longer journey to European destinations by rail rather than get there quickly by plane. I would wager, Eurostar will concentrate on bolstering its Amsterdam services, then maybe reinforce its South of France services. I would absolutely love Eurostar to go to Spain but with this pandemic, we can probably only dream.

With the merger however, would it make a London to Frankfurt service more likely? It could provide a useful domestic link between Lille and Germany and replace a Thalys service.

As for Eurostar going to Portugal you are 4 days too late..........

 

[Aictos]

Just a small correction: Antwerpen is in Belgium.

Sorry of course it is , apologies to any Belgians here.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As for Eurostar going to Portugal you are 4 days too late..........

What do you mean?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What do you mean?

Because it was April Fool's day. The chances of Eurostar going to Portugal are ZERO. How do you expect Eurostar to run on Iberian gauge?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Because it was April Fool's day. The chances of Eurostar going to Portugal are ZERO. How do you expect Eurostar to run on Iberian gauge?

Well that's what I was wondering. I assume a new high speed line is being built between Spain and Portugal, but even so, a 12 hour train journey vs a 2hr flight isn't going to work. Nice idea though.

 

[eddp]

There was, way back, a plan for a Madrid to Lisbon standard-gauge HSL via Badajoz but the Portuguese cancelled their side of it in 2012 as fallout from the recession. At the moment, it looks like the most likely entry point for high speed rail from Spain into Portugal would be along the Atlantic coast from Vigo to Porto, once the Galician HSL opens, supposedly later on this year.
The chances of it ever happening are absolutely miniscule, but it would theoretically be possible to get Eurostar to get Talgo to build an Alvia style trainset with adjustable axles which could then get Channel Tunnel certified - the main problem being that the Renfe adjustable axle sets seem to all be limited to 250km/h and so would almost certainly never get a chance to run along the LGV Sud-Est (Paris-Lyon). Once the Basque Y opens though and through trains from Madrid to France via San Sebastian on standard gauge become a possibility, it could become feasible - but we're looking years and years into the future at that point.
And at that point I'm going to stop dreaming...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ADIF and IdeP are still working on developing a new route to the border at Badajoz and beyond, and on the Portuguese side work is going on to reconnect an old route from Evora to the border at Elvas.
But this is mainly for freight to the Atlantic port of Sines.
It's still going to take years before a link is ready, with no clue as to what passenger services might operate to/from Lisbon.
Eurostar going down there is a fantasy until they have a viable business London-Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam.
It's worth checking these news items on the route:
Border link reopens as South International Corridor progresses | News | Railway Gazette International
Évora – Elvas cut-off contract awarded | News | Railway Gazette International

 

[paul1609]

Ive used the Eurostar south of france services a couple of times to travel from Ashford to Barcelona changing at Lyon but theres really no great advantage (and its been more expensive on both occasions) to changing in Paris which Ive also done a couple of times. In both intineries to be honest despite Barcelona being just accross the border its really a rail enthusiasts marathon rather than something thats going to appeal to the average traveller. Indeed on 3 of the 4 of my trips Ive returned to the UK via Easyjet. I dont think that all the time that Eurostar involves a trudge up to London Ill be using it, itll either be car to the nearer destinations or flights.

 

[21C101]

The gain would be that two trains could be replaced by one train that leaves Brussels and splits into Paris and London portions at Lille.But that would also require new trains.

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Ive used the Eurostar south of france services a couple of times to travel from Ashford to Barcelona changing at Lyon but theres really no great advantage (and its been more expensive on both occasions) to changing in Paris which Ive also done a couple of times. In both intineries to be honest despite Barcelona being just accross the border its really a rail enthusiasts marathon rather than something thats going to appeal to the average traveller. Indeed on 3 of the 4 of my trips Ive returned to the UK via Easyjet. I dont think that all the time that Eurostar involves a trudge up to London Ill be using it, itll either be car to the nearer destinations or flights.

I'm a little surprised that no one has attempted to run an hourly or once every two hours semi fast service from St Pancras to Lille, calling at Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Calais-Frethun and Lille.

Probably because of the political difficulties with allowing domestic passengers on.

 

[biko]

The gain would be that two trains could be replaced by one train that leaves Brussels and splits into Paris and London portions at Lille.But that would also require new trains.

Not really, Lille Europe is on the LGV towards the channel tunnel, so for trains from Brussels to Paris it means branching off the main LGV nord, reverse and then going back to LGV Nord. That takes a lot of time while there are sufficient passengers between Brussels and Paris. Besides that, Thalys train sets cannot be coupled to the very long Class 373 or 374 trains.

 

[Purple Orange]

Ive used the Eurostar south of france services a couple of times to travel from Ashford to Barcelona changing at Lyon but theres really no great advantage (and its been more expensive on both occasions) to changing in Paris which Ive also done a couple of times. In both intineries to be honest despite Barcelona being just accross the border its really a rail enthusiasts marathon rather than something thats going to appeal to the average traveller. Indeed on 3 of the 4 of my trips Ive returned to the UK via Easyjet. I dont think that all the time that Eurostar involves a trudge up to London Ill be using it, itll either be car to the nearer destinations or flights.

As someone who dislikes being on a train longer than necessary, I take a different view. Over recent years, my personal take on travel is considering my carbon footprint more and more. That is to the extent that I am choosing not to fly, avoiding driving as much as possible and if travelling by train I will seek out a route using an EMU rather than a DMU. For that reason, I’m doing Manchester-London-Paris-Barcelona by rail.

On the face of it, that seems arduous. Yet in a time where more people are becoming increasingly conscious about their own contribution to the climate emergency, I see it more as changing holiday habits. Long haul destinations are off limits, but Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium & Netherlands should all be achievable. However it requires a stop in Paris in reality. That isn’t such a bad thing, Paris is a lovely city and if I’m going on a 2-week holiday, I am more than comfortable with taking a few nights of the 14 to spend in Paris before reaching my eventual destination.

 

[paul1609]

The gain would be that two trains could be replaced by one train that leaves Brussels and splits into Paris and London portions at Lille.But that would also require new trains.

Bear in mind the distances involved. Brussels to Lille is about 75 miles, Paris about 200, London 225. In UK terms it would be the same as stopping York trains at Huntingdon to detach a portion for Preston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2021 ==

I'm a little surprised that no one has attempted to run an hourly or once every two hours semi fast service from St Pancras to Lille, calling at Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Calais-Frethun and Lille.

Probably because of the political difficulties with allowing domestic passengers on.

Im not! It would be difficult to operate and the market for say Ashford to Lille is tiny and much easier by le shuttle/ road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2021 ==

As someone who dislikes being on a train longer than necessary, I take a different view. Over recent years, my personal take on travel is considering my carbon footprint more and more. That is to the extent that I am choosing not to fly, avoiding driving as much as possible and if travelling by train I will seek out a route using an EMU rather than a DMU. For that reason, I’m doing Manchester-London-Paris-Barcelona by rail.

Lets face it if you were really serious about your carbon emissions rather than worrying about the debateable merits of different modes, living in Manchester youvd spend 2 weeks in Blackpool and spend the time on the delightful tram journey to the fishermens friend factory in Fleetwood.

 

[Purple Orange]

Lets face it if you were really serious about your carbon emissions rather than worrying about the debateable merits of different modes, living in Manchester youvd spend 2 weeks in Blackpool and spend the time on the delightful tram journey to the fishermens friend factory in Fleetwood.

I take it that you think climate change is nothing to worry about then or change your habits for?

 

[Ianno87]

Im not! It would be difficult to operate and the market for say Ashford to Lille is tiny and much easier by le shuttle/ road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2021 ==

It would only work if it provided the entire international service at Stratford/ Ebbsfleet / Ashford / Calais allowing all Eurostars to run fast London-Lille. Passengers from the intermediate stations would need to change at Lille.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not really, Lille Europe is on the LGV towards the channel tunnel, so for trains from Brussels to Paris it means branching off the main LGV nord, reverse and then going back to LGV Nord. That takes a lot of time while there are sufficient passengers between Brussels and Paris. Besides that, Thalys train sets cannot be coupled to the very long Class 373 or 374 trains.

paul1609 said:

Bear in mind the distances involved. Brussels to Lille is about 75 miles, Paris about 200, London 225. In UK terms it would be the same as stopping York trains at Huntingdon to detach a portion for Preston.

I think he means running two units together and uncoupling them at Lille with one going to each destination?

 

[biko]

paul1609 said:


I think he means running two units together and uncoupling them at Lille with one going to each destination?

Exactly, that's the problem. Combining a London and Paris portion coming from Brussels leads to the procedure I described for the Paris portion. Also there really is sufficient demand for Brussels to Paris on its own and combining the different types of train is impossible. There was a near hourly Thalys and TGV service between Paris and Brussels.

 

[cle]

Per a poster above, the biggest changes I see are more Eurostar services to Amsterdam, especially post-Brexit (opinion differs on future demand to Brussels) - but Amsterdam becoming a second London is certainly underway.

If remaining sterile, it would not offer Thalys additional frequency. I would say that Lille to Rotterdam and Amsterdam could be a new flow, but it may not be that large and the Amsterdam services really need the non-stop Brussels timings.

For Eurostar beyond that, it's a case of infrastructure for customs/security, sadly. The trains can run anywhere in France, but to service places necessitates spend. If an on-train check was permitted, things would change.

Bordeaux and Geneva are often mentioned - both could call at Disney, with one being an extension of that path. Beyond that I would think additional services to Lyon, Avignon, Aix and Marseille. I would love a route to Nime, Montpellier and Perpignan too, but doubtful before at least Lyon & Avignon year round / daily.

 

[RT4038]

If an on-train check was permitted, things would change.

For all sorts of reasons this seems highly unlikely to change, however.

The merger is most likely to produce some administrative and managerial savings, but precious little in terms of routes and timetables. Possibly a little in co-ordination....

 

[paul1609]

It would only work if it provided the entire international service at Stratford/ Ebbsfleet / Ashford / Calais allowing all Eurostars to run fast London-Lille. Passengers from the intermediate stations would need to change at Lille.

it wouldn't work like that either. The Eurostar market from Ashford pre covid was almost entirely to Paris (or Eurodisney). They were just about to add a further departure pre covid. If you have to change at Lille you may as well drive to Frethun and catch a domestic TGV from there direct to Paris. It will certainly be cheaper once you take in to account car parking at Ashford International. The only reason Ashford retained a Brussels service once HS1 opened was because the MEPs made such a fuss about it. In terms of leisure traffic to Belgium the top destinations are Brugge and Antwerp. both of these are much easier to drive from Kent than a indirect rail journey via Brussels.
Whats not perhaps appreciated by those up country is how easy with le shuttle it is to drive from Kent to the near continent, from my house to Paris by road is about the same distance as to Stoke on Trent. Even once you take in to account the formalities and the wait for the train the lack of congestion on the French motorway system and the 130 kmh speed limit means that time wise I can certainly drive to the centre of Paris in the time it takes to the centre of Manchester.

 

[Ianno87]

it wouldn't work like that either. The Eurostar market from Ashford pre covid was almost entirely to Paris (or Eurodisney). They were just about to add a further departure pre covid. If you have to change at Lille you may as well drive to Frethun and catch a domestic TGV from there direct to Paris. It will certainly be cheaper once you take in to account car parking at Ashford International. The only reason Ashford retained a Brussels service once HS1 opened was because the MEPs made such a fuss about it. In terms of leisure traffic to Belgium the top destinations are Brugge and Antwerp. both of these are much easier to drive from Kent than a indirect rail journey via Brussels.
Whats not perhaps appreciated by those up country is how easy with le shuttle it is to drive from Kent to the near continent, from my house to Paris by road is about the same distance as to Stoke on Trent. Even once you take in to account the formalities and the wait for the train the lack of congestion on the French motorway system and the 130 kmh speed limit means that time wise I can certainly drive to the centre of Paris in the time it takes to the centre of Manchester.

Depends whether a near hourly service with a connection is more attractive than a sporadic 3-4 trains per day direct service that was the pre-Covid offering at Ashford.