Is there any way into Liverpool from the north-east that doesn't involve a long tunnel? The NPR route can take advantage of an existing almost-disused route from the Warrington area to Edge Hill, and the HS2 route from Manchester to the new junction site, so relatively little new infrastructure is needed. Having the same services calling at Manchester Airport and Liverpool probably means more high speed links for both, than if the trains beyond Manchester had to go to one or the other.
I don't think approaching from the North would require a long tunnel.
Perhaps you can suggest where a surface route might run?
I‘d follow the Merseyrail route (directly under it) in from a little before Liverpool South Parkway. I’d then have a station between Liverpool Central and Lime Street, with entrances and exits at both ends of the platforms to provide direct access from both.
That might avoid a long tunnel in Liverpool but wouldn't it just need another one in Manchester?
Very true, initially it was about connecting HS2 to Liverpool.
Well it won’t be Liverpool to Manchester services, Manchester to Leeds services and Leeds to Meecastle services (I’m hoping). Sounds like dwell times could potentially be only 2-3 mins longer with reversal, however a junction outside a reversal will be incredibly hard to schedule services at reliably.
The HS2 Ltd design for the 6-platform surface station at Piccadilly features a flying junction for the NPR line to Leeds. This should minimise crossing movements in the station throat.
A northern route into Liverpool might make sense if only HS2 services from London (and possibly Birmingham) were being considered. But it was felt (rightly or wrongly) that HS2 on its own couldn't justify a dedicated link to Liverpool. NPR improves the case because the link can carry Transpennine trains too, and there are advantages to having the same NPR train serve both Manchester Airport and Liverpool. So when both projects are considered together (which should probably have happened from day 1) the southern approach makes sense.
Would you rather have 400m long services, which demand at Liverpool is unlikely to justify, or would it be better to have the London trains take the quicker direct route? Via Newton-L-W isn't suitable for high speed, because of stopping and freight services and ground conditions over Chat Moss.
Glad to hear my comments are appreciated!
Piccadilly looks a certainty for the Manchester station if anything like this is built at all. Looking at the junction proposed to be added to HS2 near Ardwick, it would be connectable to those routes via the Philps Park route and Miles Platting, hopefully with some major re-alignment to reduce the curvature. Alternative it could head via the Medlock Valley or Stalybridge line, or the former third and fourth tracks of the Guide Bridge line (for which see other thread), these options merging to pass somehow between Oldham and Ashton. Then moreorless a straight line (mostly in tunnel) to join your suggestions near where they diverge west of Huddersfield.
How can a line from Leeds be tunnelled in to Piccadilly from the west? I’d say the junction at Ardwick is odds on for being the route to/from Leeds.
I'm presuming you mean a new line as I can't imagine 17 billion being spent on a transformative upgrade?
Bradford needs better connections surely. It seems like, so far, Leeds has been put forward, with Bradford being made extremely secondary.
You can do BDI - HUD with a better local service via Brighouse.
Yes, it may be longer, but it does the job.
Reinstating viaduct at bailiff bridge may be a tad expensive, but hudds to Bradford is painfully slow at present.
Presumably you mean the M62?
Sorry, please could you explain?
