Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Energy]

Right. Class 805s are Bi-Mode trains and will be used on the London Euston to Chester, North Wales and Shrewsbury services. And Class 807s are Electric trains and will be used on the London Euston to Birmingham New Street, Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North services.

Correct. The Pendolinos are more useful on longer services due to their tilt.

 

[The Planner]

There will be some shuffle round of diagrams that will put 390s on all Scotland services, with 807s working south of Preston/Liverpool and 805s on off-wire services.
Then there's the vexed question of whether 80x will run at over 110mph on the WCML I suspect not, at least initially.
One current diagram (non-Covid) has 2x221 starting at Blackpool and Holyhead and combining at Crewe, which will probably change.

No reason currently why they won't be able to from the start. The work is progressing.

 

[Hey 3]

I meant 800 series, I know there is specific classes like 802s or 803s!

You could say AT300's to not stir confusion?

 

[hexagon789]

The 805's are intended to replace the voyagers on routes to Scotland(which is already wired, to stop them running under the wires for most/all of the journey), to Chester and North Wales. The 807's will also replace the Voyagers(to Scotland only) and run alongside the Pendolino's.

I didn't think the 805s were going to operate into Scotland?

 

[Hey 3]

I didn't think the 805s were going to operate into Scotland?

Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

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Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

And 805's can be used as you can operate them on the wires all the way.

 

[Energy]

Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

Voyagers have tilt and still accelerate excellently for diesel trains so they are able to keep to 390 times, especially because of the former. The 805/7s will not keep to time on the Scotland runs due to their lower top speed due to lack of tilt.

The 805s will run the diesel services to Wales, Chester etc. and the 807s will run services to Birmingham and Blackpool, there are no plans for them to go to Scotland.

 

[sprinterguy]

Were Avanti (and VT beforehand) short on Pendolinos that Voyagers are operating electric routes? I took the 10:03 to Birmingham in December off EUS and was surprised to have a Voyager, I had a Voyager at Rugby that came from Liverpool also. I knew they did set swaps to fit Voyagers on the Blackpool, was that because they were short of Pendos or because Pendos couldn't call at K&W and Poulton?

Birmingham - Scotland used to be entirely Voyager operated as it was part of the Virgin Crosscountry franchise: So once that portion of the service transferred to West Coast it did indeed result in them having to run Voyagers entirely under the wires.

 

[Huntergreed]

Thought the 800s were not cleared on the WCML.

They certainly are between Glasgow and Carlisle (ECML Diversion necessitated this) - and this isn't exactly the 'easiest' section to traverse.

 

[Railperf]

No reason currently why they won't be able to from the start. The work is progressing.

What's being done, where, and when will it be complete?

 

[The Planner]

What's being done, where, and when will it be complete?

Increasing non EPS speeds from Euston to Weaver, target date is May 22.

 

[craigybagel]

Thought the 800s were not cleared on the WCML.

Whilst I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, I love the idea of people thinking Avanti would order millions of pounds worth of new trains and not check whether or not they could actually run on their routes

Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

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And 805's can be used as you can operate them on the wires all the way.

Running Voyagers to Manchester is difficult (though not quite impossible) since Manchester TMs don't sign them. Hence why they have shown up on Liverpool - London services occasionally (Liverpool TMs sign them as they work the Wrexham services, amongst others) but rarely on Manchester - Liverpool.

Birmingham - Scotland used to be entirely Voyager operated as it was part of the Virgin Crosscountry franchise: So once that portion of the service transferred to West Coast it did indeed result in them having to run Voyagers entirely under the wires.

And then a few years ago when Virgin combined the Birmingham - Scotland and London - Wolverhampton services as well as freeing up some Voyagers for the extensions to Shrewsbury and Blackpool that came shortly after, it also led to Voyagers and Pendolinos being more mixed (ie London - West Midlands - Scotland services saw a lot more Pendolinos where previously it was almost exclusively Voyager operated)

Increasing non EPS speeds from Euston to Weaver, target date is May 22.

I'm very curious about this, especially as we keep hearing contrasting stories as to whether or not it's actually happening. Whilst I do believe you and know you only post reliable info here, are there any sources online showing what the actual plans are, and how much (if any) 125mph running is actually going to be achievable?
And what ever happened to the 125mph non Tilt running North of Preston that according to a Railway magazine was merely awaiting the fitting of new signs showing the higher speeds?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham - Scotland used to be entirely Voyager operated as it was part of the Virgin Crosscountry franchise: So once that portion of the service transferred to West Coast it did indeed result in them having to run Voyagers entirely under the wires.

Though the incredibly clever change to a through service at least freed up enough units that most trains could be either a Pendolino or a double Voyager. I still hold that up as one of the best things VT came up with - the only disadvantage it had was a reduction in the through fast Wolves-Brum service by 1tph, but those trains were not, at most times, anything like full.

 

[craigybagel]

Though the incredibly clever change to a through service at least freed up enough units that most trains could be either a Pendolino or a double Voyager. I still hold that up as one of the best things VT came up with - the only disadvantage it had was a reduction in the through fast Wolves-Brum service by 1tph, but those trains were not, at most times, anything like full.

The turn around times for the Wolves - Euston and Scotland - Birmingham services were both around 30 minutes IIRC. Getting rid of that worked wonders!
And some would argue that freeing up a path between Wolves and New Street was no bad thing. The Crewe - Stoke - Birmingham service was originally meant to be an extension of the all stops Walsall - Wolverhampton service, but became it's own bespoke service with a much more attractive fast run between Wolves and Birmingham. I'm assuming that without the changes Virgin made this wouldn't have been possible?
However, I can see the mods hovering with the off topic button armed.....

 

[The Planner]

I'm very curious about this, especially as we keep hearing contrasting stories as to whether or not it's actually happening. Whilst I do believe you and know you only post reliable info here, are there any sources online showing what the actual plans are, and how much (if any) 125mph running is actually going to be achievable?
And what ever happened to the 125mph non Tilt running North of Preston that according to a Railway magazine was merely awaiting the fitting of new signs showing the higher speeds?

Nothing online, no. If there is I haven't seen it. Bear in mind Avanti are progressing it with NRs help, it isn't a NR scheme so that is also probably why north of Preston hasn't got anywhere as it isn't funded.

 

[hexagon789]

Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

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And 805's can be used as you can operate them on the wires all the way.

I appreciate they can both run on 25kV but I was under the impression neither the 805s nor 807s would be working any Anglo-Scottish services, those would be all Pendolinos.

 

[Domh245]

I appreciate they can both run on 25kV but I was under the impression neither the 805s nor 807s would be working any Anglo-Scottish services, those would be all Pendolinos.

That's my (and most others in this thread, and railway press, etc) understanding too

 

[p.d87]

The Hitachi's are not in the current plans to run north of the border. Anglo Scot will be 390 only.

 

[hwl]

Because Voyagers run to Scotland a lot more than to say Manchester. And 807's if not 390's would run to Scotland.

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And 805's can be used as you can operate them on the wires all the way.

Unit allocations to service groups will be rejigged.
As others have pointed out several times 807s will operate London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street & Blackpool North (and some Birmingham New Street) services. This will release some voyagers (leaving franchise) and some 9car 390s which be cascaded to run the Euston - New Street - Scotland services releasing more Voyagers (leaving franchise). There will be no 807 running on the ECML north of Preston.
805s will replace voyagers directly on the Chester, North Wales and Shrewsbury services, running on electric south of Crewe/Wolverhampton.

 

[hexagon789]

That's my (and most others in this thread, and railway press, etc) understanding too

That's fine then, that was always NY understanding and like you say that of the railway press - not the first time thing have changed mind you but I didn't see that being all that likely really

 

[Scotrail88]

Probably not the correct heading so apologies in advance.

Do we know if the 221s are going to move to CrossCountry to strengthen all diagrams to doubles?

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably not the correct heading so apologies in advance.

Do we know if the 221s are going to move to CrossCountry to strengthen all diagrams to doubles?

No, we really don’t. It‘s been suggested in a number of threads about either XC, or 221s and 222s, but there’s never been anything official.

There’s a fairly recent thread about it here:

Avanti West Coast Class 221 to CrossCountry

I was just having a thought that the 20 remaining Class 221 Super Voyagers could be transferred to CrossCountry franchise after they are replaced by 13 Class 805 Agility Trains 300 in 5 carriages and 10 Class 807 Agility Trains 300 in 7 carriages. And CrossCountry will be able to form a uniform...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They certainly are between Glasgow and Carlisle (ECML Diversion necessitated this) - and this isn't exactly the 'easiest' section to traverse.

Strictly, it's between Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh for the ECML diversions.
But LNER operates a regular Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow Central leg as well, so the whole WCML route north of Carlisle must be cleared.
TPE has also run 802s on test on parts of the WCML in the northwest, but I'm not sure they covered the whole route north of Crewe.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Strictly, it's between Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh for the ECML diversions.
But LNER operates a regular Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow Central leg as well, so the whole WCML route north of Carlisle must be cleared.
TPE has also run 802s on test on parts of the WCML in the northwest, but I'm not sure they covered the whole route north of Crewe.

No there have been LNER 80X along the Tyne Valley and up from Carlisle through Lockerbie.

 

[greatvoyager]

Has there been an update on the interior layout?

 

[Scotrail88]

Any outline dates of when these are planned into service - is May 22 too early?

also allow the voyagers to cascade - but that’s another convo

 

[hexagon789]

Any outline dates of when these are planned into service - is May 22 too early?

also allow the voyagers to cascade - but that’s another convo

Way too early, they aren't planned to enter traffic until next year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Way too early, they aren't planned to enter traffic until next year.

May 22 is next year...

 

[rdlover777]

could the standard 800 series design be modified to tilt in order to be able to achieve 125?

 

[221101 Voyager]

could the standard 800 series design be modified to tilt in order to be able to achieve 125?

I think that is more suited to a speculative ideas thread tbh. Just saying, otherwise moderators won't be happy with you going off topic.

 

[rdlover777]

I think that is more suited to a speculative ideas thread tbh. Just saying, otherwise moderators won't be happy with you going off topic.

just saying, if it could be done, surely Hitachi could mode the 805/807 design to be able to tilt so they wouldn't need to slow to 110 for most of the trip