Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Class 33]

My apologies! I have amended my post as I was typing quickly. I meant NO restrictions at all unless there is a VERY good reason.

Ah good. Was a bit confused by your posting as the first sentence didn't tie up with the third sentence. I definitely agree with your corrected posting though. Unless something disastrous happens, then come 21st June there needs to be social distancing and face mask wearing completely scrapped entirely, and no vaccine passports required domestically. In the UK, we need to be completely back to proper normal.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I only have this objection in terms of the app proposal, surely it should be on a universal app? I ain't going to down Protect Scotland app for the sake of going outwith Scotland and as proof (then again has there been any word from Sturgeon properly mentioning this or even merging info like this onto an app? As far as I have heard is Sturgeon/Leitch speak of passports but nothing forthcoming - so to me in Scotland we don't have a clue on going forward regardless other than follow Boris - this part isn't being political but I do wish Sturgeon et al would get their heads out the sand than keep digging further).

I know its quoted that it maybe on the NHS app (but thats in England and possibly Wales?) but in Scotland there is no "NHS" app so thats redundant. I just even went on Google and all I get is the NHS inform site and to download the app.

If they go down that road, I hope that it is universal (though I'd prefer no vaccine passports at all, obviously). As someone who lives relatively near the border, I'd quite like to be able to go to Scotland for a few pints or a meal, and having to go through the hassle of two different systems would put me off.

However, I fear if Sturgeon has anything to do with it, there won't be a universal system for political reasons. Her cause is strengthened when Scotland and England are at their most separated. Different systems which make travel more of a hassle will be something she's keen on.

 

[Gadget88]

My view is that by June most if not all of groups 1-9 will have received both doses and a good proportion of the rest will have received the first dose. The risk of severe illness will be very low. At that point we need to look at the actual risk of severe illness. The only ones at risk are those who have refused the vaccine and I don't see why we should be restricted because they can't be bothered.

Unless there is a VERY good reason no masks, no social distancing and NO vaccine passports domestically need to be the way forward.

The problem is a vocal minority seem to want restrictions to continue for ever. I also don't like the way the Government drop in suggestions as a drip drip effect to get people used to the idea.

June 21st for me means normal (that's proper normal)

Why is this? Too long off work? I know people who have been off and are a very scared

 

[HSTEd]

I can't see anybody wanting to waste money rolling that out to all over 50s tbh

Hate to break it to you, STIs are very much prevalent amongst older people.

Especially older people who believe they are too old to get pregnant and don't bother with contraception etc.

 

[kez19]

If they go down that road, I hope that it is universal (though I'd prefer no vaccine passports at all, obviously). As someone who lives relatively near the border, I'd quite like to be able to go to Scotland for a few pints or a meal, and having to go through the hassle of two different systems would put me off.

However, I fear if Sturgeon has anything to do with it, there won't be a universal system for political reasons. Her cause is strengthened when Scotland and England are at their most separated. Different systems which make travel more of a hassle will be something she's keen on.

This is another reason why I would refuse on using an app - even for this, I wonder if the other alternative would be is I turn up in a hotel in England - say my name/address and they see I am approved(?), I am also under the assumption that my name is on the NHS database in general in the UK than Scotland, as couple years ago I had to go to hospital briefly in England and the medics found my name/address on a database?

Also its the costs into all of this in a broader context (4 nations) in terms of IF they are planning this passport setup (hopefully we do not go there either but heck majority of politicians lie these days so I wouldn't be surprised).

 

[Gadget88]

This is another reason why I would refuse on using an app - even for this, I wonder if the other alternative would be is I turn up in a hotel in England - say my name/address and they see I am approved(?), I am also under the assumption that my name is on the NHS database in general in the UK than Scotland, as couple years ago I had to go to hospital briefly in England and the medics found my name/address on a database?

Also its the costs into all of this in a broader context (4 nations) in terms of IF they are planning this passport setup (hopefully we do not go there either but heck majority of politicians lie these days so I wouldn't be surprised).

I see America have ruled out a database and any covid passports what’s peoples thoughts on that?

 

[Richard Scott]

Why is this? Too long off work? I know people who have been off and are a very scared

Why? Sorry, we can't keep these restrictions because a few are scared. I suggest they do some proper research instead of believing all media and government spin. I'm sorry but I've wasted a year of my life and not prepared to waste any more because a few people are still scared.

 

[Domh245]

My view is that by June most if not all of groups 1-9 will have received both doses and a good proportion of the rest will have received the first dose. The risk of severe illness will be very low. At that point we need to look at the actual risk of severe illness. The only ones at risk are those who have refused the vaccine and I don't see why we should be restricted because they can't be bothered.

Given the high levels of take up we've seen (well above 99% in >70YOs) the largest risk group comes from those who've had the vaccine but for whom it isn't effective. With the takeup numbers published by the ONS today, and a 97% efficacy against death & severe disease from one of the Isareli studies, there are around 6 times as many people over the age of 70 at risk from the vaccine proving ineffective than from not having the vaccine at all.

Like you say, the risk will be low but any restrictions won't be for the sake of those refusing the vaccine (though noting that there are a plethora of reasons that people can't have the vaccine beyond "not being bothered") - the cost/benefit of these restrictions is another matter of course, as is the likelihood of high enough cases occurring for these people to become severely ill or die in a short enough time frame to cause issues!

 

[kez19]

I see America have ruled out a database and any covid passports what’s peoples thoughts on that?

Not anything against Americans or any nations that rule out these things, but then why suggest/say things (not you), I would say either media/government official to say or later deny these things then quite possibly do it.

I just find it on the other hand as some sort of twisted logic that either the media say things to wind the public up and when these things come to fruition then act like they didn't play a part (deny).

 

[PeterC]

If proof of vaccination is required to enter some foreign countries then it is incumbent on the government to produce an internationally acceptable document to cover this.

Domestically, unless everything goes dramatically pear shaped, we should continue with a careful, phased, relaxation of lockdown. If nothing upsets the proposed dates this should mean a return to normal by the end of June.

 

[Bikeman78]

So the crazy thing is that before more have been vaccinated its fine for people to mix, yet after more have been vaccinated then the passports come in. If there is no rise in deaths in the first phase, then the second is redundant.

Quite. As I asked further up thread, what happens when a new version of the vaccine comes out? Do the passports get suspended for several months? In which case, what is the point?

 

[Gadget88]

Quite. As I asked further up thread, what happens when a new version of the vaccine comes out? Do the passports get suspended for several months? In which case, what is the point?

Well my mother is having her second dose but doesn’t want a third so I assume she would become invalid with the passport and no doubt need a test instead?

 

[DelayRepay]

I see news today that it is ‘almost certain’ that Reading and Leeds festival goers will need vaccine passports. Considering how many young people go, a huge amount of people with tickets won’t have had both jabs by then. I presume they won’t be allowed to go with only one.

No matter how much certain posters wish it, there is no way everything is completely normal on June 21st.

I have tickets for a festival (not one of the ones you mentioned). We had booked the tickets for the 2020 event, which was cancelled with the tickets being carried forwards. The 2021 event has been re-scheduled from June to September.

I am concerned by the talk of 'passports' being needed - I may not have had my second shot by September, and neither may the friend I am going with. So if one of us tests positive a few days before, it may be too late to re-sell the tickets, and we will lose our hotel and train ticket expenditure. Whilst the positive person may be able to claim a refund, the non-positive person might not, but I wouldn't want to go on my own!

The capacity of Reading is 90,000 people. The current positivity rate is 56.2 per 100,000. This is likely to be much lower by the summer so the likelihood of contact with a Covid positive person is low. Combined with the fact that festivals are outdoors, and the attendees tend to be younger people who are less likely to suffer even if they catch Covid, I just cannot see the point in enforcing checks.

Better measures for festivals might be to have additional bars, food outlets and toilets to reduce crowding in these areas. And to suggest that people who are too scared to go for whatever reason sell their tickets now - there will be plenty of demand.

 

[Smidster]

I have tickets for a festival (not one of the ones you mentioned). We had booked the tickets for the 2020 event, which was cancelled with the tickets being carried forwards. The 2021 event has been re-scheduled from June to September.

I am concerned by the talk of 'passports' being needed - I may not have had my second shot by September, and neither may the friend I am going with. So if one of us tests positive a few days before, it may be too late to re-sell the tickets, and we will lose our hotel and train ticket expenditure. Whilst the positive person may be able to claim a refund, the non-positive person might not, but I wouldn't want to go on my own!

The capacity of Reading is 90,000 people. The current positivity rate is 56.2 per 100,000. This is likely to be much lower by the summer so the likelihood of contact with a Covid positive person is low. Combined with the fact that festivals are outdoors, and the attendees tend to be younger people who are less likely to suffer even if they catch Covid, I just cannot see the point in enforcing checks.

Better measures for festivals might be to have additional bars, food outlets and toilets to reduce crowding in these areas. And to suggest that people who are too scared to go for whatever reason sell their tickets now - there will be plenty of demand.

I actually have a ticket for a day at Leeds but think this pretty much means I won't be able to go.

I think that vaccines are fantastic things and the work the scientists have done this past year is phenomenal.

That being said anything to do with medicine and doctors scares the living daylights out of me - to the extent that I actually haven't seen a doctor (nor had a sick day) since I left University a decade ago.

I am now going to be completely shut out of society because I have no desire to see a doctor - I am fully aware hat it isn't doing me any good but that is my choice (or rather non-choice)

Someone up the thread talked about this being something to do with "Libertarianism" - The concept of Vaccine Passports is about as far away from any liberal concept imaginable...it is the construct of the authoritarian. Also reminds me of something I heard Matt Hancock say the other day that he was surprised at how accepting the public had been throughout the last year - I doubt we would be going down this deeply damaging road had we behaved as they were expecting!

 

[Bantamzen]

I actually have a ticket for a day at Leeds but think this pretty much means I won't be able to go.

I think that vaccines are fantastic things and the work the scientists have done this past year is phenomenal.

That being said anything to do with medicine and doctors scares the living daylights out of me - to the extent that I actually haven't seen a doctor (nor had a sick day) since I left University a decade ago.

I am now going to be completely shut out of society because I have no desire to see a doctor - I am fully aware hat it isn't doing me any good but that is my choice (or rather non-choice)

Someone up the thread talked about this being something to do with "Libertarianism" - The concept of Vaccine Passports is about as far away from any liberal concept imaginable...it is the construct of the authoritarian. Also reminds me of something I heard Matt Hancock say the other day that he was surprised at how accepting the public had been throughout the last year - I doubt we would be going down this deeply damaging road had we behaved as they were expecting!

I'm still (fairly) hopeful that the idea of vaccine passports for domestic activities will run aground as pressure from the industries affected grow. I mean if you are going to be allowed (as suggested in the media today) to go to a supermarket or other "essential" store without needing to prove you are "clean", why would it make any difference in pubs or restaurants? And if it doesn't make a difference there, then why would it in a nightclub, sports stadium or music festival.

Vaccine passports are the very pinnacle of the "Political Solution to Biological Problems" spectrum, they will literally achieve nothing save add layers of bureaucracy, data protection concerns, and erosion of civil liberties. It remains popular amongst the political elite because it gives the impression of something being done for the would-be king makers wanting to be the covid destroyers. But what it really amounts to is just a way to deflect away from the failures of many countries to have enough medical contingency (especially here in the UK), and a failure of there understanding of what viruses actually are, what they do, and how they remain one of the longest existing facets of the reality of life on this planet. They have been around for hundreds of millions of years, maybe even billions. They are not going to suddenly turn tail and run at the sight of a series of digital files. They just aren't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Someone up the thread talked about this being something to do with "Libertarianism" - The concept of Vaccine Passports is about as far away from any liberal concept imaginable...it is the construct of the authoritarian.

No, it's libertarianism where property owners or business owners have autonomy to dictate their freedom of association, which is what some businesses at least seem disposed to do. It's libertarianism if the government delegates the choice to the individual business to either allow in unvaccinated people or not. Remember that libertarianism is self-centred and your rights are fettered if another individual or property owner (let's say, a pub) merely decides not to allow you entry. You can do whatever you like in your own property but you may find the tyrannies of other property owners intolerable. It's a total myth that libertarianism means utter freedom.

Vaccine passports are technocracy and a form of medical totalitarianism and there is no compelling reason for us as a country to have the technology.

 

[yorksrob]

It's authoritatianism dressed up in a cloak of libertarianism !

(either way I'd rather just go to the pub, no questions asked).

 

[35B]

No, it's libertarianism where property owners or business owners have autonomy to dictate their freedom of association, which is what some businesses at least seem disposed to do. It's libertarianism if the government delegates the choice to the individual business to either allow in unvaccinated people or not. Remember that libertarianism is self-centred and your rights are fettered if another individual or property owner (let's say, a pub) merely decides not to allow you entry. You can do whatever you like in your own property but you may find the tyrannies of other property owners intolerable. It's a total myth that libertarianism means utter freedom.

Vaccine passports are technocracy and a form of medical totalitarianism and there is no compelling reason for us as a country to have the technology.

You highlight the inherent contradiction in the ideas, given that the "libertarian" option of business owners being able to dictate the vaccine status of their customers depends on the "technocracy" and "totalitarian" provision of vaccine passports by the state that are a prerequisite for those business owners to determine who may visit their premises.

 

[AlterEgo]

You highlight the inherent contradiction in the ideas, given that the "libertarian" option of business owners being able to dictate the vaccine status of their customers depends on the "technocracy" and "totalitarian" provision of vaccine passports by the state that are a prerequisite for those business owners to determine who may visit their premises.

I haven't seen anything that says that pubs and shops will actually be legally required to check vaccine status? At that point is ceases to be libertarian and becomes a technocratic hell.

 

[nlogax]

I haven't seen anything that says that pubs and shops will actually be legally required to check vaccine status? At that point is ceases to be libertarian and becomes a technocratic hell.

Ultimately I can't see a move to vaccine status checks being mandated by government for all businesses. That's a sure fire route to insanity and unworkable restrictions that risk screwing up any hope of an economic and social recovery. At most, maybe I see powers being given to individual business owners to decide whether they want to implement these checks themselves.

 

[kristiang85]

Oh look, an IPSOS MORI poll showing massive support for vaccine passports in most day-to-day situations. I really can't believe that is the true representation of the British public given all informal polls/opinions I've seen are vehemently against it.

Time to break out this clip...

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think vaccine passports will die a death, the government will pass the buck to businesses and the hospitality industry as to whether they’ll enforce it, and as it has been established most pubs and restaurants won’t enforce as they need the custom, even cinema’s will eventually relax on it as they’re competing with Netflix and Amazon, the number of Covid authoritarians are shrinking, I was in Blackheath yesterday having a few drinks with friends on the Heath, we went there rather than Greenwich Park because we thought it would be less busy, but it was packed, large groups, zero social distancing it felt normal! A year ago it would have been a different scene.

There’s been plenty of uproar regarding vaccine passports as being a step too far, it’ll hinder the economy more than help it, as someone said earlier in the thread the day Boris made the announcement of vaccine passports to enter hospitality, shares in pubs and restaurants fell quite quickly, that’s rather telling

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2021 ==

Oh look, an IPSOS MORI poll showing massive support for vaccine passports in most day-to-day situations. I really can't believe that is the true representation of the British public given all informal polls/opinions I've seen are vehemently against it.

Time to break out this clip...

The first three lines might be correct, but the rest is utter nonsense, they probably asked a handful of Facebook and mumsnet locktavists and quadrupled that number, even people I know who have been vaccinated are against domestic vaccine passports

 

[MikeWM]

A good question - I don't know. There's a measure of caution about how much protection the vaccine offers an individual, and how much it stops others spreading, but I'm personally in a place where once immunity's at a certain level, I'm content to let my guard down.

But, and it's an important but, some of that public confidence will depend on as many people as possible taking the vaccine

I don't see why that follows. Probably not the best analogy, but if I live in a house with a fence and a burglar alarm and lots of high-spec locks and all sorts of other security measures, why care if Fred Bloggs down the street leaves his front door open every time he goes out?

- which includes those like you who are expressing an unwillingness to take one. Not because you have to, or you're being put under moral blackmail to do so, but simply because it's the right thing to do in your own interest, even if your personal medical benefit is likely to be minimal (as, frankly, is mine).

Actually I see a good opposite argument. Vaccine 'passports' are only a feasible idea if the vast majority of people have the vaccine. The more people that don't, the less likely the requirement for a 'passport' can spread into more areas of life. So not taking the vaccine is in some sense a stand against the passports, too, which seems another good reason for those not at particular risk from the virus to consider not taking the vaccine.

I disagree with the extrapolation from a specific behaviour to a wider model such as you portray.

I hope we don't have to find out which of us is correct. I fear we will, though.

 

[joncombe]

Ultimately I can't see a move to vaccine status checks being mandated by government for all businesses. That's a sure fire route to insanity and unworkable restrictions that risk screwing up any hope of an economic and social recovery. At most, maybe I see powers being given to individual business owners to decide whether they want to implement these checks themselves.

The suggestion I heard was that pubs would only be allowed to relax "social" distancing if they checked vaccine passports. Hence it would not be mandatory but they would face having to operate at reduced capacity if they didn't agree to do so. For many pubs that would mean the difference between profit and not.

The other thing I suspect might happen is it might become a license condition. So when a pubs license comes up for renewal if they are not checking vaccine passports, someone at the local authority might decide that it's "far too dangerous" and make it a condition of the renewed license that they do. In addition if any pub that isn't checking for vaccine passports is tracked down to the source of a case you can guarantee social media will be full of posts about how it is dangerous and should be shut down etc.

 

[Richard Scott]

The suggestion I heard was that pubs would only be allowed to relax "social" distancing if they checked vaccine passports. Hence it would not be mandatory but they would face having to operate at reduced capacity if they didn't agree to do so. For many pubs that would mean the difference between profit and not.

The other thing I suspect might happen is it might become a license condition. So when a pubs license comes up for renewal if they are not checking vaccine passports, someone at the local authority might decide that it's "far too dangerous" and make it a condition of the renewed license that they do. In addition if any pub that isn't checking for vaccine passports is tracked down to the source of a case you can guarantee social media will be full of posts about how it is dangerous and should be shut down etc.

To be honest it's about time the politicians got this virus into perspective. Majority of vulnerable are vaccinated and will have no or next to no effect on rest of the population. We really can do without this sort of ridiculous nonsense. Any talk of vaccine passports should be met with contempt it deserves but unfortunately majority of media are too pathetic and dare I say stupid to challenge this. Polling people with twisted questions doesn't help either as can't imagine majority of the population really do want them in reality.

 

[kristiang85]

The suggestion I heard was that pubs would only be allowed to relax "social" distancing if they checked vaccine passports. Hence it would not be mandatory but they would face having to operate at reduced capacity if they didn't agree to do so. For many pubs that would mean the difference between profit and not.

The more I think of it, the more dystopian it seems to be.

One end of the street will have the 'clean', free premises where the obedient go.

The other end of the street will have the restrictive, 'dirty' businesses where the non-compliant go.

Eventually the latter will die out anyway, and bingo you have a two tier society naturally following where those who do not do as they are told don't get to mix in normal life.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The suggestion I heard was that pubs would only be allowed to relax "social" distancing if they checked vaccine passports. Hence it would not be mandatory but they would face having to operate at reduced capacity if they didn't agree to do so. For many pubs that would mean the difference between profit and not.

The other thing I suspect might happen is it might become a license condition. So when a pubs license comes up for renewal if they are not checking vaccine passports, someone at the local authority might decide that it's "far too dangerous" and make it a condition of the renewed license that they do. In addition if any pub that isn't checking for vaccine passports is tracked down to the source of a case you can guarantee social media will be full of posts about how it is dangerous and should be shut down etc.

This will still mean that pubs will ultimately lose custom, people will get their backs up and buy alcohol and snacks and either sit in the park or Heath during the spring or summer, or mix with people at indoors in the colder months, people have already spoken about how in the 1920s there were speakeasy bars and how people will do them again now if vaccine passports do go ahead.

Aside from that the licensing people will still have to take discrimination laws into an account, that’s no easy feat especially these days in the post George Floyd era and more awareness for those with disabilities that cannot take the vaccine, The PM isn’t wrong when he said vaccine passports have a lot of moral issues surrounding them it’s not clear cut.

Nobody in truth wants segregation especially if means vaccine passports could be the backdoor to racial discrimination if BAME people are reluctant to take the vaccine, it’s a murky issue

 

[MikeWM]

The suggestion I heard was that pubs would only be allowed to relax "social" distancing if they checked vaccine passports. Hence it would not be mandatory but they would face having to operate at reduced capacity if they didn't agree to do so. For many pubs that would mean the difference between profit and not.

I think it is fairly obvious that this is how it will go. Businesses will be able to pick between 'Vaccine passports or current social distancing measures'. Remember there are two 'reviews', one for each of these, being made by the same person, so the chances they will become so linked are very high.

Not just for pubs either, but pretty much everything - restaurants, cinemas, theatres, hotels, shopping malls, etc.

For those places where vaccine passports aren't really legally possible (yet) - eg. public transport and supermarkets - I'd therefore expect distancing, masks etc. to be continued to be required. At the rate we're going, quite possibly forever.

The direction of travel here is obvious. We're now seeing exactly the same kind of media-polling company-government mutual reinforcement we've seen so many times over the past year about the Autumn lockdown, masks in shops, etc. which in each case led to the introduction of the measure being pressed for.

 

[Bantamzen]

This will still mean that pubs will ultimately lose custom, people will get their backs up and buy alcohol and snacks and either sit in the park or Heath during the spring or summer, or mix with people at indoors in the colder months, people have already spoken about how in the 1920s there were speakeasy bars and how people will do them again now if vaccine passports do go ahead.

Aside from that the licensing people will still have to take discrimination laws into an account, that’s no easy feat especially these days in the post George Floyd era and more awareness for those with disabilities that cannot take the vaccine, The PM isn’t wrong when he said vaccine passports have a lot of moral issues surrounding them it’s not clear cut.

Nobody in truth wants segregation especially if means vaccine passports could be the backdoor to racial discrimination if BAME people are reluctant to take the vaccine, it’s a murky issue

In a sense it is a kind of health-prohibition we are seeing, you can only do certain activities if you comply with this week's health standards. However as we all know, prohibition threw up some rather unwanted, and permanent side effects that the US to this day cannot shake off. For where there is a rule against, there is someone willing to assist those who want to bypass the rule. Take for example cannabis, a drug legally available for years in some, but illegal in others. So what happens? People get the stuff from where it is legal through routes that are not.

So if vaccine passports did become the norm domestically, and I still don't think they will, what do you image will happen? People will either choose to go "elsewhere" for the things they cannot get, or they will find other ways to get to the places they cannot.

The other slight fly in the ointment is the passport itself, or more accurately the lack of. At the moment save a handful of countries, it exists only theoretically, just a idea floated about. If one is to be introduced before the end of June, the government had better get a wiggle on, otherwise its perceived popularity with the poll takers will wain quickly when they realise that they can go for much of the year without one (and of course not dying), only to have one imposed further down the line when they are needed much less (not that they are needed even now). And then there's the small issue of compatibility with other countries versions to allow any form of travel, remembering that they may bee required for more than just travel in those countries. You only have to look at the mess that was Track & Trace to quickly realise that this sort of coordination is not easy, and never quick.

 

[bramling]

The more I think of it, the more dystopian it seems to be.

One end of the street will have the 'clean', free premises where the obedient go.

The other end of the street will have the restrictive, 'dirty' businesses where the non-compliant go.

Eventually the latter will die out anyway, and bingo you have a two tier society naturally following where those who do not do as they are told don't get to mix in normal life.

When put like that it’s quite chilling.