Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Richard Scott]

For the few non-league games we were able to watch last year we had social distancing in the stand and masks while walking around the ground.

I'm struggling to see any justification for it after mass-vaccination.

Struggle to see any justification at any time.

 

[NorthKent1989]

And of course...


What a spineless opposition we have.

At least the Lib Dem's are fairly opposed to it, but they don't get much of a say these days.

Yeah the Lib Dem’s have surprisingly been a bit more opposed to vaccine passports from what I hear

 

[Mintona]

For the few non-league games we were able to watch last year we had social distancing in the stand and masks while walking around the ground.

I'm struggling to see any justification for it after mass-vaccination.

Me too, but I’d still be amazed if it doesn’t happen.

 

[takno]

Yeah the Lib Dem’s have surprisingly been a bit more opposed to vaccine passports from what I hear

The Lib Dems as a party have generally been opposed to most measures. Obviously the press haven't given them much coverage on that, and have been more inclined to cover a couple of them who are ignoring the party line. If you want to register an anti lockdown vote I think the Lib Dems are probably the largest party you could possibly do that through. They'd certainly be a better choice than an authoritarian fringe candidate

 

[Class 33]

Would be amazed if indoor venues such as cinemas and theatres don’t mandate masks for the foreseeable future (ie. 12 months), and wouldn’t surprise me if outdoor venues such as football stadia do too.

Then they'd be doing themselves no favours. Because not many people would want to pay good money to watch a film/performance and having to wear uncomfortable face coverings for 2 to 3 hours! So any cinemas and theatres that bring this nonsense rule in, won't be making much money!

Absolutely pointless for this face coverings nonsense after all adults are vaccinated by the end of July anyway. Indeed they're absolutely pointless now.

 

[NorthOxonian]

The Lib Dems as a party have generally been opposed to most measures. Obviously the press haven't given them much coverage on that, and have been more inclined to cover a couple of them who are ignoring the party line. If you want to register an anti lockdown vote I think the Lib Dems are probably the largest party you could possibly do that through. They'd certainly be a better choice than an authoritarian fringe candidate

My local MP is a Lib Dem. She has been the biggest cheerleader for zero Covid, and has constantly called for tougher restrictions. So while the vaccine passports opposition is a good start, they need to do far more for me to even consider them a decent choice.

 

[takno]

My local MP is a Lib Dem. She has been the biggest cheerleader for zero Covid, and has constantly called for tougher restrictions. So while the vaccine passports opposition is a good start, they need to do far more for me to even consider them a decent choice.

Obviously it's worth checking your local candidate's position first. That's true of any party, but in general if your candidate was fairly neutral/silent on the matter then the votes will get chalked up to whatever the party policy was

 

[bramling]

I expect a spoiled ballot paper will be the only option for me.

I suspect that’s more likely for me too. I’m not in the market for voting for any of the three main parties, and any protest vote would only be for something explicitly anti-lockdown, or loony. I’m not sure we what options there’s going to be yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2021 ==

Obviously it's worth checking your local candidate's position first. That's true of any party, but in general if your candidate was fairly neutral/silent on the matter then the votes will get chalked up to whatever the party policy was

I’d still be reluctant to vote for an anti-lockdown Conservative at the moment, especially in a local election. For me it wouldn’t send as powerful message as not voting for the party at all. I feel very politically homeless at this moment in time.

One way or other, the Conservatives in particular need a warning shot fired up their backside. I’m not sure they will get it round here though, not if Facebook is anything to go by!

 

[MikeWM]

My local MP is a Lib Dem. She has been the biggest cheerleader for zero Covid, and has constantly called for tougher restrictions. So while the vaccine passports opposition is a good start, they need to do far more for me to even consider them a decent choice.

I'd agree - I remember back a couple of months, when the Lib Dem / FBPE / 3.5% crowd were the loudest cheerleaders for tougher restrictions. One day I stumbled across the Twitter feed of one of the best-known local Lib Dem councillors and it was an absolute horror show - things like 'why are people without masks still allowed into supermarkets' and similar not-exactly-liberal nonsense/hysteria.

 

[HSTEd]

There are problems with all points on that compass - but I'd note that the "bottom left" quadrant tend to be strongly correlated with statist economics, so I struggle with applying the term "libertarian" to that quadrant where it's used as a descriptor for what economic activity is allowed.

Well its quite simple, you are allowed to whatever you like unless it involves making money!

 

[Bantamzen]

Some media outlets are now reporting that the boss of Wetherspoons Tim Martin has added his voice to the others against the idea of vaccine passports for entry into pubs. So a large part of the industry are speaking out against the idea, and at some point those fantasising about them need dialling back & putting back into their boxes. And this doesn't just go for pubs & restaurants, but for nightclubs & events.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Some media outlets are now reporting that the boss of Wetherspoons Tim Martin has added his voice to the others against the idea of vaccine passports for entry into pubs. So a large part of the industry are speaking out against the idea, and at some point those fantasising about them need dialling back & putting back into their boxes. And this doesn't just go for pubs & restaurants, but for nightclubs & events.

This is my point exactly, the hospitality industry by and large has been dead set against vaccine passports and social distancing measures, they know they’ll lose much needed custom and add to the fact that most bar staff are under 40 and therefore may not feel the need to get the vaccine, so you’ll be excluding a young demographic from entering a place where most young people work? It’s not clear cut.

Plus if this does go ahead then illegal pubs will pop up, mainstream pubs will lose money while dodgy underground pubs make money.

I personally believe that vaccine passports are a threat to get people into getting the vaccine but all its doing is getting people’s backs up.

Politically most people I know won’t be voting Tory or Labour or Lib Dem, a few will be voting Green (I’m not sure what their stance is on lockdown and vaccine passports) a fair few are planning to vote for Lawrence Fox, Piers Corbyn or David Kurten

 

[kristiang85]

Would be amazed if indoor venues such as cinemas and theatres don’t mandate masks for the foreseeable future (ie. 12 months), and wouldn’t surprise me if outdoor venues such as football stadia do too.

I can't see them doing it voluntarily, as they know many people just simply won't go. Cinemas know that people will have been conditioned to sitting at home watching releases on Netflix/Sky/etc., and need to incentivise people to come back - masking them up isn't going to do it. I went to the cinema last year to see Tenet and had to mask up for the whole event; it was pretty irritating - and I'm someone who generally doesn't mind wearing them (albeit I think the mandation is ridiculous).

Theatres have a bit more of a pull as they cannot be replicated at home, however they can be hot and uncomfortable at the best of times, and masks aren't going to help with that. Given the margins they work on, it would be financial suicide for many to open up and mandate it.

 

[westv]

Would be amazed if indoor venues such as cinemas and theatres don’t mandate masks for the foreseeable future (ie. 12 months), and wouldn’t surprise me if outdoor venues such as football stadia do too.

So basically everywhere they are now then.
God, I hope you are wrong.

 

[Gadget88]

A covid passport means I can’t spontaneously pop into a pub in my day off work. I would have to plan for my covid test wait for the results too. And it affects vaccinated people too if you don’t go get your 3rd booster for example? I read some people had bad effects with 1st dose and don’t want the 2nd so what are they going to do? I assume your passport is invalid with one dose and you would need a test?

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that’s more likely for me too. I’m not in the market for voting for any of the three main parties, and any protest vote would only be for something explicitly anti-lockdown, or loony. I’m not sure we what options there’s going to be yet.

Yes, if there's someone with an explicitly anti-lockdown position, I might vote for them.

 

[DelayRepay]

Would be amazed if indoor venues such as cinemas and theatres don’t mandate masks for the foreseeable future (ie. 12 months), and wouldn’t surprise me if outdoor venues such as football stadia do too.

If they want to go down this route, they should offer a choice. Some performances with a masked audience, some with a maskless audience. People can choose which one they prefer. Obviously if there is widespread demand from the public, the masked performances will sell out and the maskless ones will be empty. I cannot see that happening though!

 

[XAM2175]

Yes, if there's someone with an explicitly anti-lockdown position, I might vote for them.

Acting this way - at least without any additional criteria regarding the candidate's positions on other matters - sounds like a great way to elect a bunch of complete cranks.

 

[DelayRepay]

Some media outlets are now reporting that the boss of Wetherspoons Tim Martin has added his voice to the others against the idea of vaccine passports for entry into pubs. So a large part of the industry are speaking out against the idea, and at some point those fantasising about them need dialling back & putting back into their boxes. And this doesn't just go for pubs & restaurants, but for nightclubs & events.

The reality is that many pubs struggle with checking ID to make sure drinkers are aged 18+. So regardless of what 'rules' or 'guidelines' might be issued, I cannot see them being very enthusiastic about checking additional documents.

Whilst I cannot condone this behaviour, it is very easy to get a pint when you're 16, even though you shouldn't! It will be equally easy to get a pint as an unvaccinated person, I suspect.

 

[bramling]

Acting this way - at least without any additional criteria regarding the candidate's positions on other matters - sounds like a great way to elect a bunch of complete cranks.

Any worse than what we have at the moment? I’ve never been as disappointed in a government as I have been in this one.

 

[MikeWM]

I can't see them doing it voluntarily, as they know many people just simply won't go. Cinemas know that people will have been conditioned to sitting at home watching releases on Netflix/Sky/etc., and need to incentivise people to come back - masking them up isn't going to do it. I went to the cinema last year to see Tenet and had to mask up for the whole event; it was pretty irritating - and I'm someone who generally doesn't mind wearing them (albeit I think the mandation is ridiculous).

As far as I could tell, last year the cinema *owners* were opposed to masks, for the reasons you mention. However the cinema workers associations were all for them (seemingly unaware of the fact that were pushing for measures that would end up seeing themselves out of a job - which is pretty much what has now happened, see Cineworld for example).

Unfortunately I think cinema is going to really struggle, and I expect mass closures in the next few years. In addition to all the issues with getting people back, the studios have taken this 'opportunity' to push through changes they've wanted for years, significantly weakening the position of cinemas with respect to new releases.

(And of course if they implement vaccine papers, I won't be going anywhere near).

 

[yorksrob]

Acting this way - at least without any additional criteria regarding the candidate's positions on other matters - sounds like a great way to elect a bunch of complete cranks.

I only said "might".

That said, it's hard to think of a more "cranky" policy than lockdown anyway to my mind.

 

[35B]

If they want to go down this route, they should offer a choice. Some performances with a masked audience, some with a maskless audience. People can choose which one they prefer. Obviously if there is widespread demand from the public, the masked performances will sell out and the maskless ones will be empty. I cannot see that happening though!

Alternatively, there's a view that they'll need to advertise the use of vaccine passports to persuade the audience to come in the first place.

 

[MikeWM]

Alternatively, there's a view that they'll need to advertise the use of vaccine passports to persuade the audience to come in the first place.

Maybe they'll make more money than they lose if they do that - or maybe they'll lose more than they make. I agree it isn't a nice position to be in, yet another industry destroyed by fear-mongering.

However, any cinema that does so will certainly not get any custom from me (even if I did end up deciding to eventually have a vaccine - though I seriously doubt it) - and my contribution to the coffers of cinemas before all this rubbish started was far from trivial (we're talking probably £2000 or so each year, for over a decade).

 

[XAM2175]

Any worse than what we have at the moment? I’ve never been as disappointed in a government as I have been in this one.

Quite possibly. What's to stop any subsequent government being more disappointing, for the same reasons or different ones?

I only said "might".

That said, it's hard to think of a more "cranky" policy than lockdown anyway to my mind.

The thing about representative democracy is (oddly enough) that you're electing people to represent you. Not just to parrot your opinion on one or two particular topics, but to be your representative in government. They basically have carte blanche to conduct themselves as they see fit, and your only power over them should you come to object to their actions is to not vote for them again.

To nick an example from the US - let's say that you're a voter in Georgia's 14th district and you vote for Marjorie Taylor Greene because she said all the right words about ending lockdowns and mask mandates and so on. Fair enough - but your vote for her is also an endorsement of her positions again abortion, her position against equal rights for LGBT+ people, her belief that the election of Muslim members of Congress constitutes "an Islamic invasion of our government", her support for extremist militia groups, her support for executing FBI officers and members of the Democratic party, her belief in QAnon, her belief that Biden stole the election, and her belief that "Zionist supremacists" are attempting genocide against white people. You don't get to pick and mix.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite possibly. What's to stop any subsequent government being more disappointing, for the same reasons or different ones?


The thing about representative democracy is (oddly enough) that you're electing people to represent you. Not just to parrot your opinion on one or two particular topics, but to be your representative in government. They basically have carte blanche to conduct themselves as they see fit, and your only power over them should you come to object to their actions is to not vote for them again.

To nick an example from the US - let's say that you're a voter in Georgia's 14th district and you vote for Marjorie Taylor Greene because she said all the right words about ending lockdowns and mask mandates and so on. Fair enough - but your vote for her is also an endorsement of her positions again abortion, her position against equal rights for LGBT+ people, her belief that the election of Muslim members of Congress constitutes "an Islamic invasion of our government", her support for extremist militia groups, her support for executing FBI officers and members of the Democratic party, her belief in QAnon, her belief that Biden stole the election, and her belief that "Zionist supremacists" are attempting genocide against white people. You don't get to pick and mix.

If they have any views that are too objectionable, representative democracy provides me with the option to spoil my ballot.

Either way, neither the lockdown Tories, nor lockdown labour will be getting my vote.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is my point exactly, the hospitality industry by and large has been dead set against vaccine passports and social distancing measures, they know they’ll lose much needed custom and add to the fact that most bar staff are under 40 and therefore may not feel the need to get the vaccine, so you’ll be excluding a young demographic from entering a place where most young people work? It’s not clear cut.

Plus if this does go ahead then illegal pubs will pop up, mainstream pubs will lose money while dodgy underground pubs make money.

I personally believe that vaccine passports are a threat to get people into getting the vaccine but all its doing is getting people’s backs up.

Politically most people I know won’t be voting Tory or Labour or Lib Dem, a few will be voting Green (I’m not sure what their stance is on lockdown and vaccine passports) a fair few are planning to vote for Lawrence Fox, Piers Corbyn or David Kurten

This also goes for cinemas, events, nightclubs etc. Many of these businesses rely heavily not just one younger clients, but younger people working for them. As Martin says, this idea encourages client conflict, especially if an unvaccinated member of staff had to prevent an unvaccinated client from entering.

And besides, as been pointed out time and again, if we have vaccinated not only the majority of the vulnerable, but the majority of adults, can anyone explain why the hell we need vaccine passports at all?

The reality is that many pubs struggle with checking ID to make sure drinkers are aged 18+. So regardless of what 'rules' or 'guidelines' might be issued, I cannot see them being very enthusiastic about checking additional documents.

Whilst I cannot condone this behaviour, it is very easy to get a pint when you're 16, even though you shouldn't! It will be equally easy to get a pint as an unvaccinated person, I suspect.

It would be nice to think that the "Challenge 18" principle would be largely left alone with covid-passports, however you know there would be people who would be delighted to grass on pubs not enforcing checks with anything less than military precision. It would be lanyard & clipboard heaven.

Alternatively, there's a view that they'll need to advertise the use of vaccine passports to persuade the audience to come in the first place.

Would it not be more the case that those need persuading from behind their couches would be the very last to come out. If I were a hospitality / entertainment business, these would be the people I would least rely on to start a recovery.

 

[Eyersey468]

Just watched the first episode on the series on 'Yesterday' 'Living with Hitler'. I'm not saying that our government are Nazis or it's going to end up like that, but you can see the similarities between what's going on now and the beginning of the third Reich. Hitler initially only brought in policies (anti jew, anti socialist) that didn't affect the general population and they all cheered him on. It's the same with the vaccines. Only a minority won't have it, so the majority don't care if those who don't take the vaccine are looked down on. Hopefully this will be nipped in the bud now before it goes too far.

As a disclaimer, I will be having the vaccine and have no issue with it, but I have an issue with people being basically forced into it.

I agree there are parallels, the way that people have accepted everything the government says without question and the way people have been turned against each other. Its easy to see how things like the Holocaust can happen. Apologies for the thread drift.

 

[bramling]

I agree there are parallels, the way that people have accepted everything the government says without question and the way people have been turned against each other. Its easy to see how things like the Holocaust can happen. Apologies for the thread drift.

My biggest concern over the last year has been how people with disabilities have been very spitefully singled out, by being made to feel like pieces of dirt.

Whilst some businesses have been good as gold, others haven’t - for example a baker’s in my town which has a rather unpleasant poem stuck in the window implying that anyone who doesn’t cover their face is a dirty disgrace. Then we see people being humiliated in supermarkets and made to wear a sticker, to “reassure others”.

This is nasty stuff whichever way one looks at it, and the government has done little to nip this in the bud. On the contrary they’ve tacitly encouraged it.

For me that is very dodgy ground, we should never be singling any group out in a way which shames them, yet this is exactly what’s been going on, and the baying mob has jumped on it.

 

[Eyersey468]

My biggest concern over the last year has been how people with disabilities have been very spitefully singled out, by being made to feel like pieces of dirt.

Whilst some businesses have been good as gold, others haven’t - for example a baker’s in my town which has a rather unpleasant poem stuck in the window implying that anyone who doesn’t cover their face is a dirty disgrace. Then we see people being humiliated in supermarkets and made to wear a sticker, to “reassure others”.

This is nasty stuff whichever way one looks at it, and the government has done little to nip this in the bud. On the contrary they’ve tacitly encouraged it.

For me that is very dodgy ground, we should never be singling any group out in a way which shames them, yet this is exactly what’s been going on, and the baying mob has jumped on it.

I agree 100%. This is what I meant by people being turned against each other