Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[nlogax]

I don't think that the government has any intention of introducing vaccine passports for domestic use. I believe that the threat of them is to try and coerce people who are reluctant to have the vaccine into having it.

Yep, this. I believe the government is already well aware that vaccine passports are unworkable for pretty much anything relating to everyday domestic life.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think that the government has any intention of introducing vaccine passports for domestic use. I believe that the threat of them is to try and coerce people who are reluctant to have the vaccine into having it.

Yep, this. I believe the government is already well aware that vaccine passports are unworkable for pretty much anything relating to everyday domestic life.

I’m pretty sure I read that Boris has done a U Turn on vaccine passports for pubs, restaurants and shops because of the large backlash he received, not to mention David Davis saying that the public could sue for discrimination and several big pub chains and landlords have said they won’t enforce such a rule.

Also worth noting that the day Boris proposed such a thing shares in pub chains dropped to a new low as well

 

[Bantamzen]

I suspect that something more satisfactory will be negotiated in time. The reality is that the EU member states have more pressing issues at present.

They have member states whose economies rely heavily on tourism. If a country like Turkey (and I suspect there will be others) gains an advantage as a result, countries like Greece are not going to be happy. The EU is big enough to deal with more than one problem at a time, especially as one of the problems is of their own making.

 

[yorksrob]

They have member states whose economies rely heavily on tourism. If a country like Turkey (and I suspect there will be others) gains an advantage as a result, countries like Greece are not going to be happy. The EU is big enough to deal with more than one problem at a time, especially as one of the problems is of their own making.

Indeed. Our role should be to be helpful and offer potential solutions, without nagging them.

 

[bramling]

Just watched the first episode on the series on 'Yesterday' 'Living with Hitler'. I'm not saying that our government are Nazis or it's going to end up like that, but you can see the similarities between what's going on now and the beginning of the third Reich. Hitler initially only brought in policies (anti jew, anti socialist) that didn't affect the general population and they all cheered him on. It's the same with the vaccines. Only a minority won't have it, so the majority don't care if those who don't take the vaccine are looked down on. Hopefully this will be nipped in the bud now before it goes too far.

As a disclaimer, I will be having the vaccine and have no issue with it, but I have an issue with people being basically forced into it.

There are a lot of concerning things which have happened over the last year. Number one is the singling out of people with disability issues - how dare people be forced to wear a lanyard or sticker, I totally object to that. Then there’s the way people are being demonised for perfectly natural and normal actions like sneezing, and the way the government has done absolutely nothing to quell such witch-hunting - on the contrary in fact, in a lot of ways they’ve encouraged it with their fear-mongering publicity.

Thirdly we have elements of the police who seem free to apply their own take on things - the scenes of the officer shrieking and goading the Welsh dog-walker are utterly disgusting, and there’s plenty more, not least some of the creepy stuff we’ve seen over masks. Likewise the rather ugly police behaviour seen at Clapham, which was clearly a protest being shut down on the basis of “public health”, which to me is a very dodgy basis indeed. As far as I can see, nothing has been done by the government to reign this in.

For such serious stuff, there has been little parliamentary scrutiny, which highlights that we have a shower of a political establishment at the moment, on all sides of the political spectrum. *That* is the most concerning thing going forward, as this is what leaves us open to a very nasty slippery slope. I’m minded to conclude Boris is more utterly inept, incompetent and out-of-touch with normal life rather than massively nefarious (though beware of Dominic Cummings), however we currently have the door absolutely wide open to someone or something more nefarious walking in. And the worst thing is a proportion of the population seem completely oblivious and blind to it, and those that are bothered are able to be drowned out by the shouting mob, *that* is the comparison with a certain European country in the 1930s, and one which should always be in our minds to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

 

[packermac]

There are a lot of concerning things which have happened over the last year. Number one is the singling out of people with disability issues - how dare people be forced to wear a lanyard or sticker, I totally object to that. Then there’s the way people are being demonised for perfectly natural and normal actions like sneezing, and the way the government has done absolutely nothing to quell such witch-hunting - on the contrary in fact, in a lot of ways they’ve encouraged it with their fear-mongering publicity.

Thirdly we have elements of the police who seem free to apply their own take on things - the scenes of the officer shrieking and goading the Welsh dog-walker are utterly disgusting, and there’s plenty more, not least some of the creepy stuff we’ve seen over masks. Likewise the rather ugly police behaviour seen at Clapham, which was clearly a protest being shut down on the basis of “public health”, which to me is a very dodgy basis indeed. As far as I can see, nothing has been done by the government to reign this in.

For such serious stuff, there has been little parliamentary scrutiny, which highlights that we have a shower of a political establishment at the moment, on all sides of the political spectrum. *That* is the most concerning thing going forward, as this is what leaves us open to a very nasty slippery slope. I’m minded to conclude Boris is more utterly inept, incompetent and out-of-touch with normal life rather than massively nefarious (though beware of Dominic Cummings), however we currently have the door absolutely wide open to someone or something more nefarious walking in. And the worst thing is a proportion of the population seem completely oblivious and blind to it, and those that are bothered are able to be drowned out by the shouting mob, *that* is the comparison with a certain European country in the 1930s, and one which should always be in our minds to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Do you not think that not wearing a mask is the same as hanging a sign that says "I have a disability" around your neck?

 

[bengley]

Do you not think that not wearing a mask is the same as hanging a sign that says "I have a disability" around your neck?

Not necessarily. People have exemptions for reasons other than disability. This might even be the reason for not wanting to display a lanyard or badge etc.

 

[Gadget88]

Genuine question do people actually see covid passports for pubs? Is yes for how long? And for travel if yes which looks likely how long? I seen the government playing down it down as not permanent permanent as they say so what’s your thoughts?

 

[bramling]

Genuine question do people actually see covid passports for pubs? Is yes for how long? And for travel if yes which looks likely how long? I seen the government playing down it down as not permanent permanent as they say so what’s your thoughts?

Yes I do, unfortunately.

There’s still a hysterical minority of people who are extremely vocal about all this, and clearly want as higher level of restriction as they can manage to swing. Because of the disproportionate amount of noise they are making, I think the government will listen to them.

We desperately need to get away from this “other people are dirty” mentality which has been allowed to build up, but at the moment I think we’re going precisely the wrong way in terms of attitudes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==

Do you not think that not wearing a mask is the same as hanging a sign that says "I have a disability" around your neck?

Clearly not, otherwise we wouldn’t see people being humiliated by supermarket security and told they should be wearing a sticker to “reassure others”.

It’s completely illogical - so on the one hand someone devoid of a mask is such a dangerous and dirty public health emergency that people are prepared to kick up a massive fuss over it, yet wearing a sticker suddenly makes everything fine again. Don’t we just love 21st century life?!

 

[Busaholic]

Yes I do, unfortunately.

There’s still a hysterical minority of people who are extremely vocal about all this, and clearly want as higher level of restriction as they can manage to swing. Because of the disproportionate amount of noise they are making, I think the government will listen to them.

We desperately need to get away from this “other people are dirty” mentality which has been allowed to build up, but at the moment I think we’re going precisely the wrong way in terms of attitudes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==



Clearly not, otherwise we wouldn’t see people being humiliated by supermarket security and told they should be wearing a sticker to “reassure others”.

It’s completely illogical - so on the one hand someone devoid of a mask is such a dangerous and dirty public health emergency that people are prepared to kick up a massive fuss over it, yet wearing a sticker suddenly makes everything fine again. Don’t we just love 21st century life?!

Maybe it's because I live in covid-light Cornwall, but I've seen nobody challenged, let alone harassed, for not wearing a mask, or for wearing it ineffectually - there are quite a few in my town who are vocal that they refuse to wear masks (or to socially distance), mostly middle aged, mostly male and invariably white but the shops they frequent (like the co-ops, two branches) mostly have a 'we won't ask' notice next to the one saying masks are required! On the other hand, I await the imminent attempt by 'street marshals' to force me to cross the main shopping street to walk down, where there are no shops I wish to visit, clambering up and down steps each time and cross the street each time I want to visit the much more useful shops on the other side. This would be tediously unwelcome even if I didn't have MS, and I shan't comply with any directions I'm given by these pestilent people. Driving to them is out of the question for most of the day because (a) cars are not allowed for most of the day and (b) even for the couple of hours there are, parking spaces are virtually non-existent, with nothing for disabled, even on double yellows.

 

[HSTEd]

Genuine question do people actually see covid passports for pubs? Is yes for how long? And for travel if yes which looks likely how long?

Yes, its the sort of insane scheme Hancock and such have been leaning towards since the start of the crisis.

We have already demonstrated that civil liberties are now held to be almost valuless by the populace at large - "if it saves one life" etc.

Hence the demand for an enormous permanent test and trace infrastructure and mass testing - he wants to obliterate flu.

I seen the government playing down it down as not permanent permanent as they say so what’s your thoughts?

Once you allow them to build this infrastructure, it will be used to compel basically all vaccines available.

There is no reason to build such a thing and then abandon it a handful of months or weeks later, if it is allowed to exist it will always exist.

 

[bramling]

Maybe it's because I live in covid-light Cornwall, but I've seen nobody challenged, let alone harassed, for not wearing a mask, or for wearing it ineffectually - there are quite a few in my town who are vocal that they refuse to wear masks (or to socially distance), mostly middle aged, mostly male and invariably white but the shops they frequent (like the co-ops, two branches) mostly have a 'we won't ask' notice next to the one saying masks are required! On the other hand, I await the imminent attempt by 'street marshals' to force me to cross the main shopping street to walk down, where there are no shops I wish to visit, clambering up and down steps each time and cross the street each time I want to visit the much more useful shops on the other side. This would be tediously unwelcome even if I didn't have MS, and I shan't comply with any directions I'm given by these pestilent people. Driving to them is out of the question for most of the day because (a) cars are not allowed for most of the day and (b) even for the couple of hours there are, parking spaces are virtually non-existent, with nothing for disabled, even on double yellows.

It’s fascinating how there are differences in how the whole thing is being received. When we were in holiday in west Wales last year, everything seemed reasonably relaxed - people were doing distancing but generally not going overboard with it. In London it’s always been rather patchy, especially in the suburbs. Meanwhile in my town (deepest Hertfordshire) people absolutely revel in it, they seem to want more.

Without sounding too much like a stuck record, it does seem to be the case that the people clamouring for restrictions seem to be the ones who are enjoying elements of their current lifestyle, specifically the ‘f’ word, or not having to get up early and commute to the office every day. I can see no other explanation for why there’s so many early-middle-age females who have suddenly become more terrified on behalf of the elderly than the elderly themselves!

 

[AlterEgo]

Genuine question do people actually see covid passports for pubs? Is yes for how long? And for travel if yes which looks likely how long? I seen the government playing down it down as not permanent permanent as they say so what’s your thoughts?

Vaccine proof for entry to overseas countries will very heavily by country and will rely on a few things. The prevailing culture within the country, the prevalence or absence of Covid-19 cases, and the efficacy of vaccines against mutant variants in those countries.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The government will say “it’s up to the venues to require a passport” but most landlords have already said they won’t bother it, they need the custom, I don’t have the articles right now to hand but the bosses of Greene King and Shepherd Neame pubs have basically told the public that they won’t be checking whose been vaccinated or not

The tide has turned now most are sick of this and just want to get back to normal, the London, Manchester, Bradford, Bristol and Brighton marches were proof of that and there’ll be more to come, plus today people in Chelmsford shopped without masks, everyday more and more people are pushing back

Pubs and restaurants who do enforce it will soon change their minds when they see their rivals gaining more custom and passing trade.

As I said it’s vocal minority of authoritarians who demand this and the interesting thing will be the May local elections, there are a number of MP’s who are either independent and pro freedom or MP’s who’ve been critical of lockdowns from the start, for London I cannot see Khan being re-elected but I also feel that Shaun Bailey of the Tories won’t win either, I personally feel that this will be the straw that will break the camels back.

 

[Gadget88]

The government will say “it’s up to the venues to require a passport” but most landlords have already said they won’t bother it, they need the custom, I don’t have the articles right now to hand but the bosses of Greene King and Shepherd Neame pubs have basically told the public that they won’t be checking whose been vaccinated or not

The tide has turned now most are sick of this and just want to get back to normal, the London, Manchester, Bradford, Bristol and Brighton marches were proof of that and there’ll be more to come, plus today people in Chelmsford shopped without masks, everyday more and more people are pushing back

Pubs and restaurants who do enforce it will soon change their minds when they see their rivals gaining more custom and passing trade.

As I said it’s vocal minority of authoritarians who demand this and the interesting thing will be the May local elections, there are a number of MP’s who are either independent and pro freedom or MP’s who’ve been critical of lockdowns from the start, for London I cannot see Khan being re-elected but I also feel that Shaun Bailey of the Tories won’t win either, I personally feel that this will be the straw that will break the camels back.

Yep let’s be clear this is coming from Boris. At Mays elections I am voting SNP first time since 2007 they believe in a fair society I hope they don’t do a four nation approach on passports. As you say we need to get back to normal

 

[Skimpot flyer]

<snip> but I also feel that Shaun Bailey of the Tories won’t win either, I personally feel that this will be the straw that will break the camels back.

Shaun Of The Dead ?

Good to see the share prices of pub chains falling in response to Bozo’s latest ‘shoot from the hip’ pronouncement.
It surely indicates that the City - despite the loud voices on social media appearing to suggest Covid Passports will be popular - realise this will be the final nail in the coffin for pubs if brought in. I’d trust their opinion far more than polls in the media or loud crazies on social media!

 

[Richard Scott]

Yep let’s be clear this is coming from Boris. At Mays elections I am voting SNP first time since 2007 they believe in a fair society I hope they don’t do a four nation approach on passports. As you say we need to get back to normal

Afraid I don't understand your logic. SNP seem to be worst of the lot for wanting restrictions, zero covid etc.

 

[Bikeman78]

The tide has turned now most are sick of this and just want to get back to normal, the London, Manchester, Bradford, Bristol and Brighton marches were proof of that and there’ll be more to come, plus today people in Chelmsford shopped without masks, everyday more and more people are pushing back

That's how most pandemics end. People get fed up and just get on with their lives.

 

[102 fan]

Yep let’s be clear this is coming from Boris. At Mays elections I am voting SNP first time since 2007 they believe in a fair society I hope they don’t do a four nation approach on passports. As you say we need to get back to normal

I don't want vaccine passports of any description, but I think you're naive if you think voting for any particular party, even the SNP, will make life fairer. We in NI unfortunately won't be part of the May elections, but if I lived in an area that did, my vote would go to whatever party was advocating stopping restrictions sooner, even guaranteeing the dates given by Boris. Politicians might be afraid of the virus, they're FAR more afraid of loosing votes.

 

[takno]

Yep let’s be clear this is coming from Boris. At Mays elections I am voting SNP first time since 2007 they believe in a fair society I hope they don’t do a four nation approach on passports. As you say we need to get back to normal

I don't think there's much evidence that the SNP do want a fairer society. They've been in power for a long time now and have done absolutely nothing to work towards a fairer society.

On Covid they've been almost rabidly pro-restriction, and have kept Scotland more consistently and more pointlessly restricted than England throughout.

Vote for who you want of course, but SNP as an anti-lockdown vote seems bizarre

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yep let’s be clear this is coming from Boris. At Mays elections I am voting SNP first time since 2007 they believe in a fair society I hope they don’t do a four nation approach on passports. As you say we need to get back to normal

The SNP have made the Tories look really laidback in comparison during this have they not? I have friends in Scotland and they says the restrictions have been really bad far worse than in England, is there another party you could vote for that is pro freedom?

Shaun Of The Dead ?

Good to see the share prices of pub chains falling in response to Bozo’s latest ‘shoot from the hip’ pronouncement.
It surely indicates that the City - despite the loud voices on social media appearing to suggest Covid Passports will be popular - realise this will be the final nail in the coffin for pubs if brought in. I’d trust their opinion far more than polls in the media or loud crazies on social media!

Shaun of the dead! Had to laugh out loud at that! he’s most underwhelming I must say, the way the mayoral race is going I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if Khan loses, he’s been a disaster for London, not at all like Livingstone who in my opinion was the best mayor London has ever had, he was actually present and made his presence clear, like him or loath him he loved London and was passionate about being mayor.

And yes indeed about pubs shares dropping quicker than a lead balloon, I’m sure I read that Boris had decided to do a u turn on passports for pubs and restaurants after the backlash he received from the hospitality industry.

Personally I think Boris and his gang are using the threat of vaccine passports to get people to take the vaccine and it’ll die a death.

Even theatres and cinema’s will eventually relax, theatres need all the custom they can get at this point, Andrew Lloyd Webber has already stated that he intends to reopen his productions without social distancing.

That's how most pandemics end. People get fed up and just get on with their lives.

We’ve definitely reached that point then, I was out for a walk today around Crystal Palace, Dulwich and Sydenham Hill and those areas weren’t exactly going along with the rules to begin with in truth, Lordship Lane was always busy and little social distancing aside from queuing outside supermarkets and banks, but today I saw even more people out and about

I don't want vaccine passports of any description, but I think you're naive if you think voting for any particular party, even the SNP, will make life fairer. We in NI unfortunately won't be part of the May elections, but if I lived in an area that did, my vote would go to whatever party was advocating stopping restrictions sooner, even guaranteeing the dates given by Boris. Politicians might be afraid of the virus, they're FAR more afraid of loosing votes.

Boris and his inner circle want to milk Covid because they’ll see it as a “Churchill moment” when in truth the majority of this country is sick of the whole thing, vaccine passports is what burst the bubble of people’s tolerance for this, people want to go back to normal with no conditions.

This for me has put the Tories and Labour on life support politically, I can even see more independent MP’s and more localised parties gaining ground in their place.

 

[MikeWM]

I seen the government playing down it down as not permanent permanent as they say so what’s your thoughts?

My precise thoughts to these 'not permanent' comments from the Government were 'hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, pull the other one.'

I *really* *really* don't want to quote Milton Friedman, as I'm very much not a fan of the philosophy he espoused or the effects it had on western society, but he did sum this one up irritatingly well - 'nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program'.

Once you allow them to build this infrastructure, it will be used to compel basically all vaccines available.

It won't be limited to vaccine records either. It will be how much alcohol you drink, how much sugar and fat you eat, how much exercise you get, whether you give blood regularly... - and that's just the 'health' possibilities. Then it will be how much carbon you use, how many flights you take, whether you're expressing the 'right' opinions on the internet, etc. etc.

The government will say “it’s up to the venues to require a passport” but most landlords have already said they won’t bother it, they need the custom, I don’t have the articles right now to hand but the bosses of Greene King and Shepherd Neame pubs have basically told the public that they won’t be checking whose been vaccinated or not

Tim Martin sounds pretty opposed too, unsurprisingly.

However, I still don't see how they get around the Government saying 'you can either do vaccine papers checks, or you have to keep all the anti-social distancing measures in place' - which is precisely what I expect they will do.

 

[AlterEgo]

I hope we are all writing down “libertarianism is a really awful idea, fact” as we read of the idea that establishments on their own volition may ban people who refuse the vaccine to enter.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

My precise thoughts to these 'not permanent' comments from the Government were 'hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, pull the other one.'

I *really* *really* don't want to quote Milton Friedman, as I'm very much not a fan of the philospohy he espoused or the effects it had on western society, but he did sum this one up irritatingly well - 'nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program'.



It won't be limited to vaccine records either. It will be how much alcohol you drink, how much sugar and fat you eat, how much exercise you get, whether you give blood regularly... - and that's just the 'health' possibilities. Then it will be how much carbon you use, how many flights you take, whether you're expressing the 'right' opinions on the internet, etc. etc.



Tim Martin sounds pretty opposed too, unsurprisingly.

However, I still don't see how they get around the Government saying 'you can either do vaccine papers checks, or you have to keep all the anti-social distancing measures in place' - which is precisely what I expect they will do.

If they try that nonsense, I expect people to scream ‘if vaccination means no social distancing, why are you currently insisting the vaccinated must continue to wear masks and observe social distancing??? Screw that, masks off... NOW‘

 

[MikeWM]

I hope we are all writing down “libertarianism is a really awful idea, fact” as we read of the idea that establishments on their own volition may ban people who refuse the vaccine to enter.

I can't say that libertarianism is the first political philosophy to come to my mind when discussing a potential massive Government program to assess and track people.

I don't think anyone sane is arguing for totally 'pure' libertarianism, anyway. I can't imagine anyone wants to return to the days of 'no dogs, no blacks, no irish' in B&B windows - but it would be rather nice if 'no non-jabbed' was considered equally wrong. Businesses clearly ought to have a wider range of obligations to avoid any form of discrimination than individuals do.

If they try that nonsense, I expect people to scream ‘if vaccination means no social distancing, why are you currently insisting the vaccinated must continue to wear masks and observe social distancing??? Screw that, masks off... NOW‘

But they seem to have been quite clear about shifting the goalposts over the last few months so that it appears that vaccination now *doesn't* mean no social distancing. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but then what does nowadays?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I hope we are all writing down “libertarianism is a really awful idea, fact” as we read of the idea that establishments on their own volition may ban people who refuse the vaccine to enter.

Very few venues will do this, even in Israel some venues have let unvaccinated people into bars and restaurants because they can’t afford to turn customers away

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2021 ==

Tim Martin sounds pretty opposed too, unsurprisingly.

However, I still don't see how they get around the Government saying 'you can either do vaccine papers checks, or you have to keep all the anti-social distancing measures in place' - which is precisely what I expect they will do.

They’ll say no to both, bosses won’t want the hassle either way, I recall the restrictions back in Autumn last year when pubs had to put a limit on how many could enter and more often than not in resulted in a argument in which in the end the door staff would relent and let people in, both outcomes means somewhere down the line they lose custom and business will go elsewhere.

 

[AlterEgo]

Very few venues will do this, even in Israel some venues have let unvaccinated people into bars and restaurants because they can’t afford to turn customers away

Because libertarianism is a bad idea, that’s why. I’m of the impression any places which do insist on vaccine proof won’t have the policy for very long as many people will just go to a competitor which doesn’t require it (and I include myself, a vaccinated person in those).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

the scenes of the officer shrieking and goading the Welsh dog-walker are utterly disgusting, and there’s plenty more, not least some of the creepy stuff we’ve seen over masks. Likewise the rather ugly police behaviour seen at Clapham, which was clearly a protest being shut down on the basis of “public health”, which to me is a very dodgy basis indeed.

You do realise that that is a rather edited incident involving a notorious youtuber (who's name I won't publicise). He was also unfortunate enough to be in Clapham, and in London in December - he's just one of those unfortunate people for whom police harassment just seems to follow him around.

Oh, and that's before you look at his anti-immigration and anti-minority videos too.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Because libertarianism is a bad idea, that’s why. I’m of the impression any places which do insist on vaccine proof won’t have the policy for very long as many people will just go to a competitor which doesn’t require it (and I include myself, a vaccinated person in those).

Not sure it’s libertarianism is what you’re talking about, the Vaccine passport and coercion is more authoritarian I would say but I may be wrong

 

[35B]

For such serious stuff, there has been little parliamentary scrutiny, which highlights that we have a shower of a political establishment at the moment, on all sides of the political spectrum. *That* is the most concerning thing going forward, as this is what leaves us open to a very nasty slippery slope. I’m minded to conclude Boris is more utterly inept, incompetent and out-of-touch with normal life rather than massively nefarious (though beware of Dominic Cummings), however we currently have the door absolutely wide open to someone or something more nefarious walking in. And the worst thing is a proportion of the population seem completely oblivious and blind to it, and those that are bothered are able to be drowned out by the shouting mob, *that* is the comparison with a certain European country in the 1930s, and one which should always be in our minds to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Even there, I suggest that the comparison with the 1930s is a significant overstatement - you rather disregard the explicit objective of a number of parties of undoing the democratic settlement of the period.