How could services on the Leeds - Skipton - Carlisle / Lancaster lines be improved?

[RailWonderer]

The Leeds - Settle, Morecambe, Carlisle could probably do with connecting with more services, maybe LNER ones.

Al alternative pie in the sky idea for speculative could be a Skipton - Carlisle, Skipton - Morecambe with a 90 min frequency that could work.

Less rolling stock needed plus Northern could market it and attempt to gain more revenue.

People would use the train instead of cycling or driving if the service was more frequent, but I think it is a catch 22 situation.

If, like some say, Northern have a shortage of drivers then don't expect anything, especially from the company that values staff conveneince above all else.

Maybe 175s for this service when TfW are done with them?

Sorry, I'll put my crayons back in the tin.

 

[HST43257]

Ok so I think there should be 2tph Leeds to beyond Skipton, so this is any non suburban EMU service. They’d call at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley and Skipton.

How about
1tp2h Leeds to Lancaster, all stations. Morecambe can be a 2tph shuttle from Lancaster.
1tp2h Leeds to Carlisle, all stations.
1tp2h Leeds to Glasgow/Inverness, calling at Settle, Horton-in-Ribblesdale (2tpd), Ribblehead (2tpd), Kirkby Stephen (3tpd) Appleby and Carlisle (+ more towards Scotland)
1tp2h Leeds to Blackburn via a new curve towards Clitheroe, or Hellifield reversal or Skipton to Colne route.

The Leeds to Glasgow/Inverness would actually be an LNER from London. 7tpd running all the way through. 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening in each direction for Horton (3 peaks), 2 during the day for Ribblehead and the other 3 calling at Kirkby Stephen. All would also call at Settle & Appleby as shown above.

 

[bluenoxid]

Hourly Skipton-Carlisle with a high proportion sent to Leeds and the Morecambes every 2 hours.

 

[Fisherman80]

Looking through the Twitter feed on the Friends of the Settle to Carlisle line. I hope we do not see this before the May timetable change.

 

[30907]

Assuming the pre-Covid service is restored, it provided a very reasonable service despite not being the pure 2-hourly interval one might have preferred, and catered for most of the significant flows.
I would move the 07xx from Leeds earlier to allow commuting into Lancaster, and add an additional morning round trip to Carlisle to spread the loadings (thinking 0749-0849-0949-1119 or similar). Anything else would be a bonus if there were were resources sitting idle.

The Leeds - Settle, Morecambe, Carlisle could probably do with connecting with more services, maybe LNER ones.

Not sure what you have in mind?

An alternative pie in the sky idea for speculative could be a Skipton - Carlisle, Skipton - Morecambe with a 90 min frequency that could work.

The Skipton-Leeds section is the busiest (on most trains, not all), and you would need to provide EMU replacements for some of them at least.
90-minute frequency is very generous for the Lancasters in particular.

 

[YorksLad12]

Given that Leeds/Bradford to Skipton is electric, that paths between the three are at a premium and that diesel under wires is generally considered to be a Bad Thing; I'd increase the frequency of Skipton-Carlisle and Skipton-Lancaster (if paths exist), to two-hourly possibly also pulling out the existing through trains apart from first and last ones if required for positioning moves.

I don't know if there are mid-platform signals at Skipton but if there are then there would be the possibility of same-platform interchange in both directions for Leeds (P3 north, P2 south), and southbound for Bradford from P1.

I know there will be horrified looks at my suggestion of pulling the through trains; but if the result is a more robust timetable, less diesel under wires and more trains into the Dales when people are allowed to travel (but not out of the country) it's a winner for me.

 

[37424]

I expect the pre covid timetable was adequate for both routes and probably more than adequate for the Lancaster route given the service had been substanically increased.

As for running to Skipton not Leeds I'm sure there are plenty of trippers for day trip over the S&C and longer distance travellers who have possibly already changed at Leeds who won't appreciate another change at Skipton.

 

[30907]

I don't know if there are mid-platform signals at Skipton but if there are then there would be the possibility of same-platform interchange in both directions for Leeds (P3 north, P2 south), and southbound for Bradford from P1.

There aren't, and only P3 is signalled for both arrivals and departures from the Hellifield end.

I know there will be horrified looks at my suggestion of pulling the through trains; but if the result is a more robust timetable, less diesel under wires and more trains into the Dales when people are allowed to travel (but not out of the country) it's a winner for me.

I've not noticed particular problems caused by running through to Leeds, and the post-May timetable is back to pre-Covid on the Carlisle route (only 6 of 8 on the Benthams), my previous comment stands.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd have a buffet trolley on the Carnforth line. A hot drink would be great.

 

[Iskra]

Looking through the Twitter feed on the Friends of the Settle to Carlisle line. I hope we do not see this before the May timetable change.

Fake news.

The front and rear doors on that train were out of use due to the Northern Covid policy at the time, therefore the 18ish passengers boarding all had to use the middle doors. 18ish passengers boarding a train is not a busy train, nor newsworthy.

There is a clear agenda behind that photo, and it's a total travesty when Settle-Carlisle often gets longer train formations than Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==

I expect the pre covid timetable was adequate for both routes and probably more than adequate for the Lancaster route given the service had been substanically increased.

As for running to Skipton not Leeds I'm sure there are plenty of trippers for day trip over the S&C and longer distance travellers who have possibly already changed at Leeds who won't appreciate another change at Skipton.

Agreed. Given the apparent demise in commuting, hopefully paths can be found on the Aire Valley to run Lancaster services to Leeds again. That's the only sensible improvement that could be made in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==

I'd have a buffet trolley on the Carnforth line. A hot drink would be great.

Timothy Taylor's- Keighley's finest- for me

 

[yorksrob]

Timothy Taylor's- Keighley's finest- for me

That's a good shout !

 

[Halish Railway]

I do think that at some times of the year an hourly Leeds to Carlisle service can be justified. I’d go for;

1tp2h calling at all stations beyond Skipton.
1tp2h calling at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Settle, Ribblehead, Kirkby Stephen & Appleby.

In addition, I would build a curve of track from the Bentham line onto the WCML, allowing trains to go to Windermere which would also require the redoubling of the Windermere branch.

I think that the Lancaster/Morecambe trains are fine at 1tp2h.

Although, my priority for trains beyond Skipton would be to run trains to East Lancashire via the SELRAP route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would separate out Morecambe completely. I'd get in a couple of 3-car battery D-trains (Tube interior, which should cope well with summer traffic) and operate it as a standalone, branded-up, fully clockface shuttle (something like "The Bay Metro" or the likes), mostly half-hourly but with a few hour-long gaps when it has to do the Heysham (as there doesn't seem a nice way to avoid that).

Or perhaps only the Heyshams could run as through services, allowing the shuttle to be half-hourly all day?

 

[tbtc]

I think that the main thing would be combining certain Carlisle/ Lancaster services at Hellifield to provide one long train on the following paths:

• Arrival into Leeds between 08:30 and 08:45
• Departure from Leeds after 09:00
• Arrival into Leeds between roughly 16:30 and 17:00
• Departure from Leeds around 17:30

That would mean sufficient capacity on the four most important trains of the day (joining/ splitting at Hellifield to ensure sufficient capacity to justify a scarce path along the Aire Valley at rush hour)

At other times, it may be better use of resources to turn Lancaster - Skipton into a shuttle, focussing Aire Valley paths on four coach 333s (or six coach 331s) - maybe a bi-hourly Leeds - Carlisle service - but as long as there are paths for people working in Leeds and for Leeds people making day trips tot he Dales then I think that that'd be the priority.

Morecambe - Lancaster really should be split out - it has nothing to do with Leeds other than a hangover from Nineteenth Century mill workers going on holiday - would be much better as a shuttle west of Lancaster

Ok so I think there should be 2tph Leeds to beyond Skipton, so this is any non suburban EMU service. They’d call at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley and Skipton.

How about
1tp2h Leeds to Lancaster, all stations. Morecambe can be a 2tph shuttle from Lancaster.
1tp2h Leeds to Carlisle, all stations.
1tp2h Leeds to Glasgow/Inverness, calling at Settle, Horton-in-Ribblesdale (2tpd), Ribblehead (2tpd), Kirkby Stephen (3tpd) Appleby and Carlisle (+ more towards Scotland)
1tp2h Leeds to Blackburn via a new curve towards Clitheroe, or Hellifield reversal or Skipton to Colne route.

The Leeds to Glasgow/Inverness would actually be an LNER from London. 7tpd running all the way through. 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening in each direction for Horton (3 peaks), 2 during the day for Ribblehead and the other 3 calling at Kirkby Stephen. All would also call at Settle & Appleby as shown above.

Seven trains a day from Settle to Inverness (or Glasgow)?

Fake news.

The front and rear doors on that train were out of use due to the Northern Covid policy at the time, therefore the 18ish passengers boarding all had to use the middle doors. 18ish passengers boarding a train is not a busy train, nor newsworthy.

There is a clear agenda behind that photo, and it's a total travesty when Settle-Carlisle often gets longer train formations than Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham...

That's shoddy stuff, if that's the case - a shame when people try to make their point by using disingenuous pictures like that - it removes the credibility of other points that they are trying to make.

Clearly there are some significant peaks in demand on such a leisure based line (and the railway is going to struggle to know how many people are going for a walk in the countryside/ which services they'll want to return home on) - there will be times when the railway isn't going to be flexible enough to respond to a large group (e.g. given the way that some "Three Peaks" groups will have a large number of walkers all travelling at the same time) - there are always going to be some times when there will be more passengers than seats - but presenting information in the way that they have here makes it easy for people to dismiss the points that they are making - poor from them (if that't what happened).

 

[HST43257]

Seven trains a day from Settle to Inverness (or Glasgow)?

7 a day to Carlisle, of which you might get a couple to Inverness, a few to Glasgow and a couple to Ayr perhaps, to bring in longer distance services to Dumfries, Kilmarnock and Ayr.

 

[Bigman]

They would probably get even more usage if the Clitheroe terminators extended to Hellifield to feed into the Lancaster/Carlisle services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would probably get even more usage if the Clitheroe terminators extended to Hellifield to feed into the Lancaster/Carlisle services.

I would support such a reopening but suspect it would be negligible as you can travel from Clitheroe to Lancaster via Bolton, and it's not like demand for that is going to be massive as neither Clitheroe nor Lancaster is huge, and driving would be loads quicker in either case.

 

[gerryuk]

Join the Carlisle - Leeds service with the Leeds - Nottingham service via Sheffield. Don't know if they still do the one run on a Sunday?

 

[Bigman]

Or maybe they could operate a Hull-Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe. Yes I know this would be another through service at Leeds, but it already has to use D road at Whitehall Jcn in any case to get to Bradford, so a quick divert onto the Down Skipton should not be too onerous from a pathing perspective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2021 ==

OK maybe not. There would still need to be a Bradford service using the same path, so scrap that idea.

 

[Iskra]

Join the Carlisle - Leeds service with the Leeds - Nottingham service via Sheffield. Don't know if they still do the one run on a Sunday?

It has to cross too many lines on the throat at Leeds doing that or reverse at Wakefield and is limited to which platforms it can use. Operationally problematic.

Or maybe they could operate a Hull-Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe. Yes I know this would be another through service at Leeds, but it already has to use D road at Whitehall Jcn in any case to get to Bradford, so a quick divert onto the Down Skipton should not be too onerous from a pathing perspective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2021 ==

OK maybe not. There would still need to be a Bradford service using the same path, so scrap that idea.

Can’t imagine there’s much demand for that journey. Calder Valley services would be a better one to link to Hull if any.

 

[Bigman]

Maybe linking the Carlisle/Morecambe – Leeds with the Leeds – Knaresborough might be more feasible as they would use the same tracks from Armley Jcn into the bay platforms. This would link up some very touristy areas and also give Harrogate a direct service to the WCML.

 

[30907]

I think that the main thing would be combining certain Carlisle/ Lancaster services at Hellifield to provide one long train on the following paths:

• Arrival into Leeds between 08:30 and 08:45
• Departure from Leeds after 09:00
• Arrival into Leeds between roughly 16:30 and 17:00
• Departure from Leeds around 17:30

That would mean sufficient capacity on the four most important trains of the day (joining/ splitting at Hellifield to ensure sufficient capacity to justify a scarce path along the Aire Valley at rush hour)

If you are going to do that, split in the evening and join in the morning at the staffed station of Skipton where ISTR the subsidiary signals already exist.
The day-trip train will require all 4 cars to Carlisle anyway, the real benefit is to the two commuter trains. Of course this assumes there is a spare EMU to cover the working you have robbed....

Morecambe - Lancaster really should be split out - it has nothing to do with Leeds other than a hangover from Nineteenth Twentieth Century mill workers going on holiday - would be much better as a shuttle west of Lancaster

Corrected The offpeak through trains run in layover time at Lancaster, so there is no disadvantage in running them through to serve the handful of short-break customers. By all means improve the shuttle service as well if you can path it.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Could I suggest a new line ?

 

[xotGD]

There used to be through trains from Hull to Lancaster. 31/4 on a set of stock.

 

[YorksLad12]

Maybe linking the Carlisle/Morecambe – Leeds with the Leeds – Knaresborough might be more feasible as they would use the same tracks from Armley Jcn into the bay platforms. This would link up some very touristy areas and also give Harrogate a direct service to the WCML.

Not that direct if you have to reverse at Leeds, I'd have thought...

 

[Fisherman80]

Fake news.

The front and rear doors on that train were out of use due to the Northern Covid policy at the time, therefore the 18ish passengers boarding all had to use the middle doors. 18ish passengers boarding a train is not a busy train, nor newsworthy.

There is a clear agenda behind that photo, and it's a total travesty when Settle-Carlisle often gets longer train formations than Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==


Agreed. Given the apparent demise in commuting, hopefully paths can be found on the Aire Valley to run Lancaster services to Leeds again. That's the only sensible improvement that could be made in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2021 ==


Timothy Taylor's- Keighley's finest- for me

Fake news? Were you on that particular service? When I was out and about last year I had no issues when it came to what doors I used on Northern Rail.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I've used the Leeds - Sheffield fasts, and with the exception of the pre-covid peak services into and out of Leeds, a single 158 has usually been sufficient.

There have been many occasions when I've hankered after or been grateful for longer trains on the S&C.

 

[route101]

Few more services between Leeds and Carlisle, for better connections at Carlisle for Scotland.