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Ideas/suggestions & other speculation for Okehampton / Exmouth lines

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Starmill

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In a couple of years it would be good if all Okehampton trains could call at Newton St Cyres and Yeoford, thus reliving any Barnstaple services from having to do so. As a second stage I would look to remove the stops at the other stations between Crediton and Barnstaple except for Copplestone, Lapford, and Eggesford. Some careful revaluation of what can be accommodated around the restrictive token block and the less than perfect location of the passing loop under those conditions would probably enable a few minutes saving for end-to-end times with almost no loss of intermediate traffic. The stakeholder management would be nigh on impossible, but this line only has a few years before it will become an environmental concern in my view, and the large population catchment in North Devon, as well as the status of Exeter, means it could be saved with some investment 5 - 10 years from now, such as resignalling and a dynamic passing loop. Of course, there would be some who would say that money should be made available right now to improve the signalling, increase the max permissible speed and add more double track, and I wouldn't disagree... but in general it is much easier to make an investment case if you have already demonstrated that you are making the best possible use of the assets you have.
 
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REVUpminster

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I’ve got an OS map from the 1970s and it’s astonishing to see how much Exeter has expanded since then.
i've had to amend this as original did not include Topsham
exeter s.JPG


Exeter's population is estimated to be 131.500 up from 2011 118,000 within an area of 47.km. With a possible10 stations and level crossing with six tracks no other city is like it.

Torbay map.JPG

Torbay's population is estimated at 136,000 up from 2011 130,000 within an area 62.9km. Torbay hardly grew between 2001 and 2011 because of the loss of 5000 jobs at Nortel and associated electronic factories.
 
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Cowley

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View attachment 92043

Exeter's population is estimated to be 126,000 up from 2011 113,000 within an area of 27.3km. With a possible10 stations and level crossing with six tracks no other city is like it.

View attachment 92044

Torbay's population is estimated at 136,000 up from 2011 130,000 within an area 62.9km. Torbay hardly grew between 2001 and 2011 because of the loss of 5000 jobs at Nortel and associated electronic factories.

Thanks for posting this.
 

30907

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In a couple of years it would be good if all Okehampton trains could call at Newton St Cyres and Yeoford, thus reliving any Barnstaple services from having to do so. As a second stage I would look to remove the stops at the other stations between Crediton and Barnstaple except for Copplestone, Lapford, and Eggesford. Some careful revaluation of what can be accommodated around the restrictive token block and the less than perfect location of the passing loop under those conditions would probably enable a few minutes saving for end-to-end times with almost no loss of intermediate traffic. The stakeholder management would be nigh on impossible, but this line only has a few years before it will become an environmental concern in my view, and the large population catchment in North Devon, as well as the status of Exeter, means it could be saved with some investment 5 - 10 years from now, such as resignalling and a dynamic passing loop.
With the current non-stop time from Crediton to Eggesford of 20min, a very cost effective solution would be to redouble towards Cowley Bridge. This would give useful flexibility in pathing trains through St David's, as well as knocking a couple of minutes off the journey (and therefore easing the turnround at Exmouth Jn/Pinhoe).
(Fortunately there is a road bridge at Newton so you could reinstate the down platform without having to install footbridge and lifts - though it might be cheaper to allow passengers to double back via Crediton :) .)
 

HamworthyGoods

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The station is well worth it for the nearby pub though.... :smile:

The May T/T in RTT shows it will now possible to get to (and from) the pub by train from Exeter daytime in Saturdays in addition to the long standing Sunday lunchtime trains.

 

davetheguard

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The May T/T in RTT shows it will now possible to get to (and from) the pub by train from Exeter daytime in Saturdays in addition to the long standing Sunday lunchtime trains.


I think I'm going to find that will be very useful!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In a couple of years it would be good if all Okehampton trains could call at Newton St Cyres and Yeoford, thus reliving any Barnstaple services from having to do so. As a second stage I would look to remove the stops at the other stations between Crediton and Barnstaple except for Copplestone, Lapford, and Eggesford. Some careful revaluation of what can be accommodated around the restrictive token block and the less than perfect location of the passing loop under those conditions would probably enable a few minutes saving for end-to-end times with almost no loss of intermediate traffic. The stakeholder management would be nigh on impossible, but this line only has a few years before it will become an environmental concern in my view, and the large population catchment in North Devon, as well as the status of Exeter, means it could be saved with some investment 5 - 10 years from now, such as resignalling and a dynamic passing loop. Of course, there would be some who would say that money should be made available right now to improve the signalling, increase the max permissible speed and add more double track, and I wouldn't disagree... but in general it is much easier to make an investment case if you have already demonstrated that you are making the best possible use of the assets you have.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think the stop at Umberleigh should definitely be kept; the village itself is admittedly small, but it acts a a mini railhead for larger places around. Glance at an OS map and you've got a B road running east to the town of South Molton, and west to Great Torrington - both of which originally had their own stations of course.

I'm not saying usage is huge, because it isn't, but I'd of thought (admittedly without checking the figures) it was on a par with Yeoford & Copplestone & higher than Lapford.
 
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HST43257

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I can see where you're coming from, but I think the stop at Umberleigh should definitely be kept; the village itself is admittedly small, but it acts a a mini railhead for larger places around. Glance at an OS map and you've got a B road running east to the town of South Molton, and west to Great Torrington - both of which originally had their own stations of course.

I'm not saying usage is huge, because it isn't, but I'd of thought (admittedly without checking the figures) it was on a par with Yeoford & Copplestone & higher than Lapford.
All station usage stats from 19-20 shown below:
Barnstaple - 424.8K
Crediton - 66.6K
Umberleigh - 32.3K
Eggesford - 32.2K
Copplestone - 19.4K
Yeoford - 17.2K
Morchard Road - 14.6K
Kings Nympton - 6.1K
Newton St Cyres - 2.7K
Lapford - 2.1K
Portsmouth Arms - 0.5K
Chapelton - 0.2K

I’d put services into categories:
Cat. 1: Hourly service
Cat. 2: 2 hourly service(?)
Cat. 3: Selected services only

So I’d have Barnstaple, Crediton, Umberleigh and Eggesford in Category 1. Then I’d have Copplestone, Yeoford, Morchard Road and Kings Nympton in Category 2. The other 4 (Newton St Cyres, Lapford, Portsmouth Arms and Chapelton) in Category 3.
 

RPI

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Didn't part of it get relaid by Network Rail's apprentices a few years ago? I read that somewhere.
There's also currently no GSM-R, the current method of working for the Sunday service was a mobile phone issued to the guard!
 

DJ_K666

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There's also currently no GSM-R, the current method of working for the Sunday service was a mobile phone issued to the guard!
I'm more surprised there's any signal for that than anything else. I'm guessing the relevant equipment for GSM-R would be/is being installed by Network Rail.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm more surprised there's any signal for that than anything else. I'm guessing the relevant equipment for GSM-R would be/is being installed by Network Rail.
Stand by local for objections to masts once they go up. (which will fail as they come under permitted development anyway.)
 
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I'm more surprised there's any signal for that than anything else. I'm guessing the relevant equipment for GSM-R would be/is being installed by Network Rail.

I believe you may be correct with this one. The Dartmoor Line FAQ page (https://dartmoorline.com/faq/) has the following paragraph:
If the line is in place, why is it taking so long to open the route?
Network Rail will continue to work to complete essential improvements required to allow a routine service to start by the end of 2021. This will involve replacing old track, cutting back lineside vegetation, assessing structures and installing new railway communication masts.
 

Class 170101

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Getting OT for this thread really, but stand by local for objections to masts once they go up. (which will fail as they come under permitted development anyway.)
If they are on NR / Railway land of course. If not then I would have thought Planning permission is required.
 

Bald Rick

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If they are on NR / Railway land of course. If not then I would have thought Planning permission is required.

Even on railway land it is customary to advise the local authority through a notice of intended use of permitted development, which still takes time.
 

Cowley

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Even on railway land it is customary to advise the local authority through a notice of intended use of permitted development, which still takes time.

Especially in Devon. ;)
 
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Re the hourly - any idea how they are going to increase to every hour? A passing loop 1/2 way along? or make coleford Junction a proper junction again and have proper " double track" between there and Credition for passing?

The journey time, as planned, would allow for an hourly service from December. However, that will only be delivered next year.

Looking at this - I do think the plan might be to move to the junction further west of Crediton. Currently the official stance is "Additional infrastructure work will take place on the route to enable GWR to increase the service to hourly during 2022." - but note that Okehampton to Crediton on Sundays was 30+ minutes, and that the official literature on the Dartmoor Line is still quoting 40+ minutes to Exeter, I'm not sure the journey time can actually be improved that much.

Bear in mind, for an hourly service OTW, a unit has to run up to Okehampton, unload, reload, reverse and run back - is that 27 minute journey at most?- and they're clearly making provisions for another stop at the parkway station (which is likely to be single track and platform) - so sub 24/25 would be needed I'm sure.

A new crossover seems to make sense to maximise capacity, and there is effectively double tracking already so recurring cost bases won't change as much as this type of upgrade would normally. If that is the plan, I would imagine it would be sited east of Yeoford as I don't imagine there's appetite to expand that particular station - but equally its footfall is far too high to end up disservicing it (a la Pilning with its one-way calling).

Thoughts?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Looking at this - I do think the plan might be to move to the junction further west of Crediton. Currently the official stance is "Additional infrastructure work will take place on the route to enable GWR to increase the service to hourly during 2022." - but note that Okehampton to Crediton on Sundays was 30+ minutes, and that the official literature on the Dartmoor Line is still quoting 40+ minutes to Exeter, I'm not sure the journey time can actually be improved that much.

Bear in mind, for an hourly service OTW, a unit has to run up to Okehampton, unload, reload, reverse and run back - is that 27 minute journey at most?- and they're clearly making provisions for another stop at the parkway station (which is likely to be single track and platform) - so sub 24/25 would be needed I'm sure.

A new crossover seems to make sense to maximise capacity, and there is effectively double tracking already so recurring cost bases won't change as much as this type of upgrade would normally. If that is the plan, I would imagine it would be sited east of Yeoford as I don't imagine there's appetite to expand that particular station - but equally its footfall is far too high to end up disservicing it (a la Pilning with its one-way calling).

Thoughts?

I think the plan was the line speed increases planned are sufficient to allow the trains to cross at Crediton.
 

MarkyT

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I think the plan was the line speed increases planned are sufficient to allow the trains to cross at Crediton.
Removing the double stop at Crediton for token/staff exchange for both lines in both directions would save a few minutes. That could also justify an increase in the crossover speeds, but if that entailed their replacement with longer turnouts they might as well be relocated a little further west if not all the way out at Coleford Junction. Either way and in conjunction with token/staff replacement any work would require some reconfiguration of signalling, both lineside equipment and interlocking. I noted from a previous post that GSM-R coverage and hence a FTN (fixed telecom network) fibre-optic link cable to the base stations is being extended along the Okehampton branch, so a bearer for replacing the staff working on that line at least with something modern and axle counter-based should be practical. New location of crossovers could be on the straight section near Neopardy, about 3km (2 miles) east of Coleford Junction and crucially east of Yeoford so not requiring an additional platform there for Barnstaple trains to continue service in both directions. A similar approach Exeter side of Crediton could reinstate double track to a new turnout just short of Newton St Cyres station, saving the need for an extra platform there and in total producing a dynamic passing loop about 8km (5 miles) long.

Here's a fairly recent cab video of the line from Coleford Jn heading towards Exeter:
 

MarkyT

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Indeed from what I understand there is no additional infrastructure in the pipeline currently for this project just the linespeed improvements to make use of the existing crossing point at Crediton.
I suspect you're correct. The only thing that might change in the medium term is a bit of modern signalling tech to replace train staff working with something train detection based, using the new FTN cable for secure, reliable data communication end to end. That would help save a little more journey time, eliminating the extra staff exchange stop for that line in both directions and pave the way for easier lock-in of Meldon freight at the far end while passenger trains also run, if the quarry traffic materialises. Relocating and increasing the speed of crossovers might be something that has synergies with future track and signalling renewals. I'm assuming some of the existing turnouts could be getting on for 4 decades in service if last replaced during Exeter resignalling.
 

21C101

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Does anyone know when Crediton box is due for recontrol onto Didcot (or Basingatoke if Didcot is full)?

With FTN in place and Axle Counter Technology getting rid of the tokens and converting to Track Circuit block using axle counters will be a lot cheaper than in t'old days.

Similarly if the crossovers are replaced it will be much easier to move them to somewhere near Coleford Jct than Crediton than in pre FTN days.

A hint to future possibilities would be provision of an FTN node near Yeoford as part of the Okehampton FTN installation.

That recontrol would also be the time to reinstate the second platform at Barnstaple and extend the double track a mile or two towards Exeter from Crediton (in fact there would be operational benefit in redoubling to just short of Cowley Bridge to eliminate Barnstaple/Okehampton services having to wait at Cowley Bridge on the Up Main for a late running train coming off the branch, as doubling the first quarter mile to form a holding pocket clear of the main line is impossible due to the river bridges.
 

Gathursty

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Does anyone know when Crediton box is due for recontrol onto Didcot (or Basingatoke if Didcot is full)?
Does Didcot control as far as Exeter?
Also, where are Wigan's signals controlled (WCML)?
 

21C101

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Does Didcot control as far as Exeter?
Also, where are Wigan's signals controlled (WCML)?
Exeter Powerbox hasn't gone over to Didcot yet. Nothing stopping Crediton going over to Didcot before Exeter though. In the same way that Gillingham to Cranbrook are under Basingstoke ROC wheras Salisbury and Tisbury remain under Salisbury PSB.

No idea where wigan is currently controlled from but it will go over to Manchester Roc in the end, if it hasn't already.
 
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Exeter Powerbox hasn't gone over to Didcot yet. Nothing stopping Crediton going over to Didcot before Exeter though. In the same way that Gillingham to Cranbrook are under Basingstoke ROC wheras Salisbury and Tisbury remain under Salisbury PSB.

No idea where wigan is currently controlled from but it will go over to Manchester Roc in the end, if it hasn't already.
Isn't the fringe between Preston & Warrington
somewhere just south of Euxton Junction?
 

HamworthyGoods

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That recontrol would also be the time to reinstate the second platform at Barnstaple

What justification is there to spend considerable money bringing the second platform back at Barnstaple? Seems excessive for the current hourly service.
 

21C101

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What justification is there to spend considerable money bringing the second platform back at Barnstaple? Seems excessive for the current hourly service.
It is an aspiration of the Tarka Line group who help run the line to enable railtours, charters etc to run to Barnstaple. I think it would need an intermediate block section between Eggesford and Barnstaple to flight trains and make it usable though.
 

John R

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It is an aspiration of the Tarka Line group who help run the line to enable railtours, charters etc to run to Barnstaple. I think it would need an intermediate block section between Eggesford and Barnstaple to flight trains and make it usable though.
Promote the line might be more accurate than help run it?

I’d like to see the business case for a second platform and intermediate block section on the hope of the occasional charter service. I suspect it would need some local funding by those interested in increasing tourism to the area to be viable. Even then, the amount of revenue spent by visitors over a couple of hours on just a handful of times a year is not really going to be significant, surely?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Promote the line might be more accurate than help run it?

I’d like to see the business case for a second platform and intermediate block section on the hope of the occasional charter service. I suspect it would need some local funding by those interested in increasing tourism to the area to be viable. Even then, the amount of revenue spent by visitors over a couple of hours on just a handful of times a year is not really going to be significant, surely?

Indeed, sounds very expensive for an occasional charter service!
 
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