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New grade-separation if money/relocation were no object

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What I was thinking on the fast lines was that a money no object plan would allow fast line services from Brighton and Gatwick airport an easy link to the West London line. But I agree they are no where near as important as the slow lines.
 
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D365

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Shepreth Branch Junction
Unless I'm mistaken, the majority of trains via Bishops Stortford terminate at Cambridge. Assuming four tracks north of the junction, how would you set them up - paired by use or paired by direction?
 

JonathanH

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What I was thinking on the fast lines was that a money no object plan would allow fast line services from Brighton and Gatwick airport an easy link to the West London line. But I agree they are no where near as important as the slow lines.
If money was no object, I think you would just have a complete rebuild of Clapham Junction with split level platforms rather than messing around with a flyover at Balham.
 
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Aictos

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Unless I'm mistaken, the majority of trains via Bishops Stortford terminate at Cambridge. Assuming four tracks north of the junction, how would you set them up - paired by use or paired by direction?
Surely the main conflict is in the Up direction towards Kings Cross as GN has to cross the other lines to gain access to the branch line via Royston whereas towards Cambridge, there isn't so much conflict if any.

Unless the idea is to run the flyover over in both directions and have the route between there and Cambridge paired by use?
 

D365

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Unless the idea is to run the flyover over in both directions and have the route between there and Cambridge paired by use?
That was my thought. How many Anglia trains from the south side of Cambridge are through trains, rather than terminating?
 

JohnElliott

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Or South Croydon (or Purley for that matter) both of which would affect more trains on the Redhill route than Stoats Nest Junction although I appreciate that neither looks feasible.

If money is no object, send the fast BML underground south of Purley and the East Grinstead line underground at Selsdon, have an underground station at East Croydon with Camden Town-style junctions at each end, and send the two branches at the north end in the direction of Victoria and London Bridge. Or keep going and turn them into Crossrails.
 

Aictos

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That was my thought. How many Anglia trains from the south side of Cambridge are through trains, rather than terminating?
There's 2tph London Liverpool Street to Cambridge North, 1tph Stansted Airport to Norwich, 1tph Kings Cross to Ely, 1tph Kings Cross to Kings Lynn, 1tph Kings Cross to Cambridge and 2tph Brighton to Cambridge to consider, XC start/terminate at Cambridge so not including them nor am I including Freight.

16tph using Shepreth Branch Junction per hour as minimum, is that enough of a business case to consider a flyover.

Also you have to consider the future Cambridge South station and how to make the best use of the track layout.
 

Ianno87

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That was my thought. How many Anglia trains from the south side of Cambridge are through trains, rather than terminating?

Typically, of services via Audley End:

2tph terminate Cambridge North (from Liverpool Street)
1tph Norwich
1tph Birmingham New Street
Plus Liverpool Street peak extras (combination of Cambridge/Ely/King's Lynn)

Via Royston
-2tph Ely/King's Lynn
-4tph Cambridge
 

AM9

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As changing the pairing of lines in four-track areas is slipping into the discussion, I'd suggest grade separated crossovers between fasts and slows on the MML to replace the ladders at Carlton Road, West Hampstead South, Radlett and Harpenden. Clearly putting full twin track flyovers anywhere between the core entry and Cricklewood is not going to be simple, even with unlimited cash. Squeezing in a single track bidirectional flyover taking off/landing between the slows/fasts it would at least avoid most of the contra-flow conflicts, (i.e. up fast & down slow), easing the slotting into correct paths.
It might be more viable if the tracks were paired by direction rather than use, (bit more cash needed there :)) making the intermediate crossovers unnecessary in normal service.
The TL/EM working timetable is a work of art, and works well when everything is hunky dory. Random glitches do occur and delays can build making it difficult for the signalling system to feed trains intothe core in the correct order. Generally, it's the EM traffic that takes the delays.
 

Aictos

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As changing the pairing of lines in four-track areas is slipping into the discussion, I'd suggest grade separated crossovers between fasts and slows on the MML to replace the ladders at Carlton Road, West Hampstead South, Radlett and Harpenden. Clearly putting full twin track flyovers anywhere between the core entry and Cricklewood is not going to be simple, even with unlimited cash. Squeezing in a single track bidirectional flyover taking off/landing between the slows/fasts it would at least avoid most of the contra-flow conflicts, (i.e. up fast & down slow), easing the slotting into correct paths.
It might be more viable if the tracks were paired by direction rather than use, (bit more cash needed there :)) making the intermediate crossovers unnecessary in normal service.
The TL/EM working timetable is a work of art, and works well when everything is hunky dory. Random glitches do occur and delays can build making it difficult for the signalling system to feed trains intothe core in the correct order. Generally, it's the EM traffic that takes the delays.
No thanks to proposing the Midland Mainline and to a extend the West Coast Mainline being converted from pair by use to pair by direction, that is something I hope never gets considered and I can explain why.

Network Rail can take a block of either the slow lines or the fast lines to carry out any work needed and you can still operate a train service, granted it may be amended but it's still a train service and it's very rare that a total line block is needed.

Example overnight engineering between Flitwick and Leagrave on the slow lines means trains can be operated over the fast lines in that section.

Compare that to the East Coast Mainline which is paired by direction and you lose all that flexibility as you have to close both lines in that direction or have one line open which hampers operations as a result rail replacement buses are often preferred.

Because of that, I think it be a very brave or foolish person to consider losing that flexibility and going from a paired by use to paired by direction.
 

cle

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Typically, of services via Audley End:

2tph terminate Cambridge North (from Liverpool Street)
1tph Norwich
1tph Birmingham New Street
Plus Liverpool Street peak extras (combination of Cambridge/Ely/King's Lynn)

Via Royston
-2tph Ely/King's Lynn
-4tph Cambridge
So if this stretch became four tracked from 'South' to 'Central' - the services are already lined up pretty well in terms of bays and through lines.
 

CarrotPie

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Herne Hill. Lower level platforms exclusively for Thameslink (2 through, one bay) with the existing 4 the exclusive preserve of SE. All existing flat junctions would stay though, for diversionary use.
 

Bald Rick

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Herne Hill. Lower level platforms exclusively for Thameslink (2 through, one bay) with the existing 4 the exclusive preserve of SE. All existing flat junctions would stay though, for diversionary use.

That’s more a big Tunnel rather than grade separation.
 

Ianno87

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So if this stretch became four tracked from 'South' to 'Central' - the services are already lined up pretty well in terms of bays and through lines.

Unfortunately, 2tph terminating from the Royston direction are 12-car and don't fit into Platforms 2 and 3....
 

AM9

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No thanks to proposing the Midland Mainline and to a extend the West Coast Mainline being converted from pair by use to pair by direction, that is something I hope never gets considered and I can explain why.

Network Rail can take a block of either the slow lines or the fast lines to carry out any work needed and you can still operate a train service, granted it may be amended but it's still a train service and it's very rare that a total line block is needed.

Example overnight engineering between Flitwick and Leagrave on the slow lines means trains can be operated over the fast lines in that section.

Compare that to the East Coast Mainline which is paired by direction and you lose all that flexibility as you have to close both lines in that direction or have one line open which hampers operations as a result rail replacement buses are often preferred.

Because of that, I think it be a very brave or foolish person to consider losing that flexibility and going from a paired by use to paired by direction.
Fair enough, - the pairing aspect was an adjunct to the main topic of the thread, but the ECML has a different function in the national network as a spine. The MML, is (or at least was), primarily a passenger-carrying route from London (including a very intensive outer suburban commuter provision) with higher density services that require critical interaction between fasts and slows.
Given that this is a fantasy thread, any changes could include full bi-di arrangements to allow for 'any two from four' working when necessary.
 

Bald Rick

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No thanks to proposing the Midland Mainline and to a extend the West Coast Mainline being converted from pair by use to pair by direction, that is something I hope never gets considered and I can explain why.

Network Rail can take a block of either the slow lines or the fast lines to carry out any work needed and you can still operate a train service, granted it may be amended but it's still a train service and it's very rare that a total line block is needed.

Example overnight engineering between Flitwick and Leagrave on the slow lines means trains can be operated over the fast lines in that section.

Compare that to the East Coast Mainline which is paired by direction and you lose all that flexibility as you have to close both lines in that direction or have one line open which hampers operations as a result rail replacement buses are often preferred.

Because of that, I think it be a very brave or foolish person to consider losing that flexibility and going from a paired by use to paired by direction.

Depends how it is built. Most of the 4 track section of ECML has a wider space between the fasts and each slow line, which means the fasts and slows can be taken independently of each other, and still have one pair in operation.

Having said that, much of the MML isn’t built that way, as the expansion from two to four tracks was generally done by squeezing them in on the cheap.
 

Aictos

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Fair enough, - the pairing aspect was an adjunct to the main topic of the thread, but the ECML has a different function in the national network as a spine. The MML, is (or at least was), primarily a passenger-carrying route from London (including a very intensive outer suburban commuter provision) with higher density services that require critical interaction between fasts and slows.
Given that this is a fantasy thread, any changes could include full bi-di arrangements to allow for 'any two from four' working when necessary.
Full bi Di arrangements aren't even going to be considered specifically because of the cost it would endure, there's more chance of seeing electrification at Holyhead then bi di signalling even if it is fantasy.

Depends how it is built. Most of the 4 track section of ECML has a wider space between the fasts and each slow line, which means the fasts and slows can be taken independently of each other, and still have one pair in operation.
Regards to the ECML, there's been many times on the past that engineering works means both lines southbound are closed and a 3hr rail replacement bus has had to be endured.

In comparison, the only time I've seen rail replacement buses used on the MML is during disruption or during a complete line blockage, during most usual engineering works it's possible to run the service but using the pair of tracks not under a engineering possession.

That's why I'm opposed to any change with the way the signalling is set up.

If anything, it's not grade seperation that the MML needs but remodelling of Bedford, that though is subject to another thread.
 

stuu

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Herne Hill. Lower level platforms exclusively for Thameslink (2 through, one bay) with the existing 4 the exclusive preserve of SE. All existing flat junctions would stay though, for diversionary use.
I used to commute from Herne Hill, and spent far too much time waiting for trains... It would probably be possible to grade separate the north end of Herne Hill with the loss of a couple of houses, but that would mean no cross-platform interchange and probably a lower speed limit for non-stopping trains, so I'm not sure it would be all that great a solution. Or build a high level viaduct for the Thameslink side, but I can imagine a few objections to that
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Park Lane/Castle Bromwich Junction near Water Orton on the Birmingham - Derby/Peterborough line.

With the proposals to reinstate passenger services along the Sutton Park line (in combination with the Camp Hill curves to and from Birmingham Moor Street), this would mean more trains using these junctions.

It may be one of the easiest grade separated junctions to build as the Sutton Park line is at a slightly higher level than the Birmingham - Derby line, and is already on a gentle downhill gradient in the Birmingham direction.
 

The Planner

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Park Lane/Castle Bromwich Junction near Water Orton on the Birmingham - Derby/Peterborough line.

With the proposals to reinstate passenger services along the Sutton Park line (in combination with the Camp Hill curves to and from Birmingham Moor Street), this would mean more trains using these junctions.

It may be one of the easiest grade separated junctions to build as the Sutton Park line is at a slightly higher level than the Birmingham - Derby line, and is already on a gentle downhill gradient in the Birmingham direction.
Only if you do Water Orton as well, otherwise half a job.
 

The Planner

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Makes sense to do it all at once while the construction teams are there.

Regarding the Water Orton curve from Sutton Park, would that be intended to land on the Whitacre/Nuneaton line or directly onto the cut off diagonal line to Kingsbury?
You need to grade seperate the line to/from Coleshill, the current set up is daft, though the fouth track between Water Orton to Castle Brom would make a fair chunk of difference.
 

Peregrine 4903

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arundel Junction, Littlehampton Junction and Ford Junction. There are so many different types of conflicting moves here that have the potential during delays to cause huge knock on effects to both the BML and the Wessex route. Particularly Arundel Junction with its 4tph heading up the Arun Valley Line conflicting with at least 4tph heading down towards Hove and Brighton and then at least 2ph heading off towards Littlehampton. Plus the extra Littlehampton - Portsmouth and Bognor services conflicting at Littlehampton Junction and Ford Junction. I wouldn't say its the biggest priority in the south, but it would be one I would look at after Windmill Bridge and the Selhurst triangle are hopefully finished.
 

30907

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Arundel Junction, Littlehampton Junction and Ford Junction. There are so many different types of conflicting moves here that have the potential during delays to cause huge knock on effects to both the BML and the Wessex route. Particularly Arundel Junction with its 4tph heading up the Arun Valley Line conflicting with at least 4tph heading down towards Hove and Brighton and then at least 2ph heading off towards Littlehampton. Plus the extra Littlehampton - Portsmouth and Bognor services conflicting at Littlehampton Junction and Ford Junction. I wouldn't say its the biggest priority in the south, but it would be one I would look at after Windmill Bridge and the Selhurst triangle are hopefully finished.
The problem there is that there is no simple intervention - each permutation of routes there carries 2tph offpeak, so any one flyover (eg Littlehampton towards Arundel, probably the easiest, though I suspect the ground conditions aren't good) only eliminates 2 conflicts per hour.
You could make some impact without a flyover by additional track at ground level ("at grade" is the Americanism) to allow parallel working through Arundel Junctions. But again, each additional "bypass" line (eg Up from Ford Jn to the Arun Valley) only carries 2tph.
Of course, money is no object so we can do it.
 

Peregrine 4903

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The problem there is that there is no simple intervention - each permutation of routes there carries 2tph offpeak, so any one flyover (eg Littlehampton towards Arundel, probably the easiest, though I suspect the ground conditions aren't good) only eliminates 2 conflicts per hour.
You could make some impact without a flyover by additional track at ground level ("at grade" is the Americanism) to allow parallel working through Arundel Junctions. But again, each additional "bypass" line (eg Up from Ford Jn to the Arun Valley) only carries 2tph.
Of course, money is no object so we can do it.
Each permutation of routes carries 4tph off peak, not two. This because of the Arun Valley services splitting at Horsham.

You've got the 2tph from Victoria - Littlehampton, 2tph from Horsham - Bognor, 1tph Horham - Portsmouth, 1tph Horsham - Southampton, 1tph Brighton - Portsmouth, 1pth Brighton - Southampton, 1tph Littlehampton - Bognor and 1tph Littlehampton - Portsmouth. Plus I'm pretty sure there is usally a Brighton - Littlehampton service which is currently withdrawn because of covid, plus the GWR services that run through to Brighton and of course the peak additional extras.

That's a lot more than 2tph on each route.

There obviously higher priority junctions to grade seperate but the Arundel, Ford and Littlehampton Junctions are one of the biggest bottlenecks in Sussex. You could also add Barnham in there for good measure as well.
 

MarkyT

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There obviously higher priority junctions to grade seperate but the Arundel, Ford and Littlehampton Junctions are one of the biggest bottlenecks in Sussex. You could also add Barnham in there for good measure as well.
It really isn't a big deal though, as the termini of Littlehampton and Bognor Regis are so close that any small incoming pathing delay on services heading there can be absorbed in the turnround layover. As long as real-time junction regulation prioritises London, Brighton and Portsmouth bound services, the junctions cope well. The 3 platforms available at Barnham help manage junction conflicts there and are vital for splitting and joining operations. I'd consider adding a handful of extra points in the Ford area junctions to enable some additional parallel movement opportunities, but no way is grade separation justified, not that this thread is concerned with realism!
 

30907

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Each permutation of routes carries 4tph off peak, not two. This because of the Arun Valley services splitting at Horsham.

You've got the 2tph from Victoria - Littlehampton, 2tph from Horsham - Bognor, 1tph Horham - Portsmouth, 1tph Horsham - Southampton,
Sorry, brain fade - I still think of the stoppers going to Littlehampton, which they haven't for years. Yes, that's 4tph. So the obvious thing to do is to separate the Arun Valley-Barnham flow from the others, but I still don't think it warrants flyovers.

1tph Brighton - Portsmouth, 1pth Brighton - Southampton, 1tph Littlehampton - Bognor and 1tph Littlehampton - Portsmouth. Plus I'm pretty sure there is usally a Brighton - Littlehampton service....
So 2tph Brighton - Barnham, 2 Brighton - Littlehampton, 2 Littlehampton - Barnham.
 
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