Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Western Sunset]

2404 (just sneaking into the shot), 2408 and 2415 at BM.

 

[Don Steedy]

Oh ok I just put that they had been done, becuase by the time they re-enter service, if ever, then they will be done anyways.

This project is now underway at BM. 2419 was the prototype, and 2418 is being done now

 

[444045]

Testing tonight between Weymouth & Wareham -

5Z00 23+17 Bournemouth Depot to Weymouth formed 442419/455861/455911 on RTT.

 

[Westerndiesels]

Hi all. I'm new here but a long time browser of this great site.

I was in Weymouth this morning and took pics of a 442 in a special fenced off siding near the station.

I'm struggling to load the pictures so don't know if I could get some advice for that.

 

[DorkingMain]

Heard a rumour from a generally reliable source that as a result of problems with the retractioned units during testing, and COVID meaning less demand for peak extras, SWR are now going to abandon the project.

 

[southern442]

Heard a rumour from a generally reliable source that as a result of problems with the retractioned units during testing, and COVID meaning less demand for peak extras, SWR are now going to abandon the project.

Totally? So they will send all the modified units back and (presumably) to scrap?

 

[DorkingMain]

Totally? So they will send all the modified units back and (presumably) to scrap?

No word on what the future plans for the units are yet.

 

[Bald Rick]

As predicted in #5414!

 

[southern442]

No word on what the future plans for the units are yet.

If it was me I'd try to get some use out of the ones that have been done (don't let my username make you think I have any bias ), but I can understand sort of if they decide not to, still would be a huge waste although hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[fgwrich]

If it was me I'd try to get some use out of the ones that have been done (don't let my username make you think I have any bias ), but I can understand sort of if they decide not to, still would be a huge waste although hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Indeed, if only they hadn't just allowed the scrapping of the unused and unrefurbished motor coaches too...

 

[Journeyman]

Cue desperate attempts to find alternative uses for them...Woodhead again, anyone?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Heard a rumour from a generally reliable source that as a result of problems with the retractioned units during testing, and COVID meaning less demand for peak extras, SWR are now going to abandon the project.

It would be a sad but not entirely unpredictable end to the project.

 

[Mainline421]

To be honest without knowing the source I'm a little skeptical of that rumour. From what I've heard it won't save them any money to cancel the project now, and they were still testing them recently after agreeing the recent ERMA extension with DfT.

I am bias though

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed, if only they hadn't just allowed the scrapping of the unused and unrefurbished motor coaches too...

Those were the motor coaches in the worst physical condition with severe corrosion.

 

[theironroad]

I wonder if there is any connection with the new SWR MD starting yesterday, though like most things I'd imagine the DfT have a controlling say.

 

[Journeyman]

Those were the motor coaches in the worst physical condition with severe corrosion.

I think people sometimes forget how old the Mark 3 design is now. Although these are fairly new as Mark 3 EMUs go, they're over 30 years old and have been stored out of use in less than ideal conditions for fairly lengthy periods. They're made of steel, and steel rusts. A lot of Mark 3s are suffering from very serious corrosion problems these days, and solving that issue is complex and expensive.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be honest without knowing the source I'm a little skeptical of that rumour. From what I've heard it won't save them any money to cancel the project now, and they were still testing them recently after agreeing the recent ERMA extension with DfT.

I am bias though

It won’t save money on the project, or the leases, but will save money on not operating or maintaing them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2021 ==

I wonder if there is any connection with the new SWR MD starting yesterday, though like most things I'd imagine the DfT have a controlling say.

Unlikely to the point of impossible.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

To be honest without knowing the source I'm a little skeptical of that rumour. From what I've heard it won't save them any money to cancel the project now, and they were still testing them recently after agreeing the recent ERMA extension with DfT.

Is this not a potentially you won’t save money but you won’t end up spending further money.

 

[Journeyman]

It won’t save money on the project, or the leases, but will save money on not operating or maintaing them.

It eliminates a micro-fleet with all the problems they create, and immediately eliminates the need to train crews on operating them.

 

[theironroad]

It won’t save money on the project, or the leases, but will save money on not operating or maintaing them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2021 ==



Unlikely to the point of impossible.

Agree really, was just clutching at straws.

Tbh, I doubt a final decision has been made.

While no one really expects a return to sardines every day in the peaks anytime soon, I'm not sure anyone really knows exactly know this will all play out and what the rebound will be.

If pax numbers for peaks return strongly in next couple of years then they may need extra capacity on mainline services and would be attractive for reluctant returnees too.

Who knows the truth....

 

[Journeyman]

Agree really, was just clutching at straws.

Tbh, I doubt a final decision has been made.

While no one really expects a return to sardines every day in the peaks anytime soon, I'm not sure anyone really knows exactly know this will all play out and what the rebound will be.

If pax numbers for peaks return strongly in next couple of years then they may need extra capacity on mainline services and would be attractive for reluctant returnees too.

Who knows the truth....

It would be stupid to scrap them at this stage. I guess it depends on whether they can be successfully kept in storage until the long term picture becomes clearer. Is providing 2+2 rolling stock on Pompey services a cast-iron franchise commitment that can't be wriggled out of?

 

[theironroad]

It would be stupid to scrap them at this stage. I guess it depends on whether they can be successfully kept in storage until the long term picture becomes clearer. Is providing 2+2 rolling stock on Pompey services a cast-iron franchise commitment that can't be wriggled out of?

Was certainly a big part of the bid, whether it was ever cast iron I don't know and the franchise itself is finished although the new contract is delayed until May I think and doubt it's part of it.

 

[DorkingMain]

It eliminates a micro-fleet with all the problems they create, and immediately eliminates the need to train crews on operating them.

Numerous problems they were too -

- They were only allowed into a limited number of platforms at Waterloo due to the gap between the train and platform on the curve.
- They can't serve Clapham Junction on the up at all
- They have to be routed on the UMF / DMF between Waterloo - Basingstoke because they risk fouling most of the platforms
- They can't operate on any routes other than Portsmouth via Guildford / Poole.
- Said routing issues mean they need two drivers in the cab (one to keep a list of route restrictions handy). Obviously for as long as social distancing is a thing this won't happen.
- They can't be split / joined in service
- If the air suspension on them deflates for any reason, they're unable to be moved due to routing restrictions and have to await the attendance of a fitter. For a while they ran with a fitter on board due to the risk of this happening.

They are also a micro fleet and for a while a limited number of staff at Fratton / Bournemouth were the only people able to work them. SWT always worked on the basis that everyone except Salisbury signed 444/450s and so it wasn't that difficult to move one out of the way if needed. There was one occasion a couple of years ago where one of the 442's crew went off sick while at Waterloo, and so a driver had to be sourced all the way from Fratton to come and move the train.

It may seem like a lot of sunk cost but when you consider the above problems in comparison to the versatility of the 444/450 fleet the cost of operating them for the sake of 9 pairs is astronomical

 

[gimmea50anyday]

bear in mind the rumours of TPE ditching the mk5s and 397s in favour of more 802s wont go away either yet management are adamant they are keeping them, so while what is being said here makes perfect sense, this is the railway and without official word I wouldn't bank on the 442s being finished just yet...

 

[TEW]

Heard a rumour from a generally reliable source that as a result of problems with the retractioned units during testing, and COVID meaning less demand for peak extras, SWR are now going to abandon the project.

Not the first time I've heard this. "Very unlikely" to return is what I was told a few weeks back.

 

[444045]

Seems strange that if they are to abandon the project, why are they still doing testing between Weymouth & Wareham at night,
5Z00 2229 Bournemouth Depot to Weymouth is en route with 8 455 (5861/5911) with 2419 parked in the Jersey sidings at Weymouth
for testing tonight ?

 

[Roger B]

Seems strange that if they are to abandon the project, why are they still doing testing between Weymouth & Wareham at night,
5Z00 2229 Bournemouth Depot to Weymouth is en route with 8 455 (5861/5911) with 2419 parked in the Jersey sidings at Weymouth
for testing tonight ?

My expectation is that the project will continue to progress until it is officially confirmed that it has been abandoned - although potentially a pause could be introduced pending a 'final' decision. So as no confirmation has been announced yet (as far as is known), activities are likely to continue. But I can't help feeling that the project's not going to survive, even if it makes it through this time, partly for the reasons listed above by DorkingMain, which I suggest make the project's business case marginal at best when compared to sourcing other units (while interest rates are low, etc), and also because I don't expect there to be the demand that requires strengthening the fleet.

With a significant proportion of commuters expected to continue to work flexibly on a permanent basis - ie travelling to/from their workplaces less than five days per week, and with flexible timings (eg WFH until post am peak, then travel into office, etc), I would be surprised if peak travel volumes returned to pre-covid levels in the next few years. Other points supporting this are intentions announced my major employers to reduce office space, government departments being relocated away from London (eg to Wolverhampton), and jobs moving to the EU (particularly in the finance sector). Of course London will continue to be a huge draw both for employers and employees, but I think it's highly likely that the pattern of work and work travel that predominated pre-pandemic has gone for good. This isn't down to covid per se - if it was then things might be expected to return to as they had been, but rather the pandemic has hugely accelerated changes to working practices that were already underway before the pandemic hit.

 

[yorkie]

Cue desperate attempts to find alternative uses for them...Woodhead again, anyone?

People are very welcome to speculate ... providing this takes place in the Speculative Ideas section!

With a significant proportion of commuters expected to continue to work flexibly on a permanent basis - ie travelling to/from their workplaces less than five days per week, and with flexible timings (eg WFH until post am peak, then travel into office, etc), I would be surprised if peak travel volumes returned to pre-covid levels in the next few years. Other points supporting this are intentions announced my major employers to reduce office space, government departments being relocated away from London (eg to Wolverhampton), and jobs moving to the EU (particularly in the finance sector). Of course London will continue to be a huge draw both for employers and employees, but I think it's highly likely that the pattern of work and work travel that predominated pre-pandemic has gone for good. This isn't down to covid per se - if it was then things might be expected to return to as they had been, but rather the pandemic has hugely accelerated changes to working practices that were already underway before the pandemic hit.

This discussion is for the Covid section

 

[DelW]

I'm struggling to load the pictures so don't know if I could get some advice for that.

Hallo and welcome

You should be able to use the "Attach files" button at the bottom of the entry screen for new posts, then select the storage location where your photos are saved. However, if the file sizes are large, it may be necessary to save them at smaller size or lower resolution, as I think the forum software has a limit on the file size it will accept.

That's about the limit of my knowledge, though since I've managed to do it in the past it can't be too hard!

 

[Bald Rick]

whether it was ever cast iron

Pig iron, perhaps