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TfGM Bus franchising

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edwin_m

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You think so?

The 33 along Eccles New Road runs only every 30 mins. Before Metrolink, there were frequent buses. You believe that the ones that remain are simply to serve people who are saving money?

Or is it perhaps to serve those areas between stops where people may not be able to walk to their nearest tram stops? Or that there may be traffic flows such as Weaste to Worsley where the time penalty for interchange isn't worth the hassle?

I can really see the point of enhancing local services in places like Altrincham to act as feeders but savings from cutting existing services, I just don't see. Where Metrolink has expanded, it has had a natural and fully understandable impact on the local bus network. What's left is viable only because it serves a distinct niche.
I can't respond to your specific examples as I don't have the local knowledge. But I believe the principle is relevant and I'm glad you support the idea of feeders. A feeder in somewhere like Altrincham ought to attact people from cars, who currently have a choice between a cheap but slow bus and a tram that they may not be able to access and even if they can it costs extra. Sometimes I think bus interests are far too motivated by getting a bigger slice of the cake, when there's an opportunity to make the cake bigger.
 
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Llandudno

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To give you an idea, this is an example of an effective bus-rail interchange that encourages switching modes (Google Streetview of Maghull station and associated bus interchange):


A couple of bus stops on the nearby main road 50m away (which is the norm in GM) is not a good example.

Perhaps Bow Street maybe another example....lol!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Oldham Mumps and Altrincham are good examples in GM.
There are other excellent examples of bus/tram co-location in Greater Manchester such as Rochdale and Eccles.

The problems come not so much in the main urban centres as on-street running allows Metrolink to penetrate the town centres. It's where it has to follow the traditional rail alignment, that may not be best placed, that means that bus services are still required but it also means bus/tram integration is sub-optimal.

A good example of this is the Bury line; it is obviously the fastest route end to end. That a number of Manchester to Bury routes persist is because it doesn't really run parallel to the main roads, heading out east through Crumpsall and then west over the Old and New Roads as it heads towards Bury. At Whitefield there is the potential to feed in but otherwise, the routes there have very definite function following the main roads and serving areas not served by the tram.

That's not the same with the Eccles line which doesn't follow some Victorian rail alignment but runs along Eccles New Road with Metrolink effectively replacing all the direct bus services between Manchester and Eccles except for the half-hourly 33. Even the Altrincham line isn't that bad as it really runs parallel with the A56 and it does serve the main centres e.g. Sale which is why bus services have declined on that corridor.
 

domcoop7

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I just hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not all journeys in the entire conurbation are people who want to go to Manchester City Centre. And post-Covid, I'm not sure that encouraging further demand to travel to Manchester City Centre is a useful thing to do anyway. I trust bus operators to know where passenger demand (tapped and untapped is) more than the local authority planners sitting in an office, subject to the supervision of some random councillors.

But save for tax rises of the order that even Andy Burnham would find unpalatable, I can't see how the Franchising system is going to be affordable without enforced Gateshead stops en mass throughout the whole region, destroying a significant number point to point flows in the process.

And that's before we get on to the next wishlist of TfGM which is to take over rail services, which just seems ludicrous to me (but is off topic for this thread), and would make matters even worse.

They could have achieved much more, more quickly, and at lower cost, using an Enhanced Partnership scheme (which expressly allows the council to require multi-modal tickets, specific calling points, specific calling times, branding, liveries, and more besides).
 

Stan Drews

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A lot of comments on this thread have alluded to a franchising system that would be geared towards punting bus passengers onto the tram. i Understood that pre-Covid Metrolink was running close to, or exceeding, available capacity at peak times. Therefore, with little room to expand the capacity on the trams, just where are all these bus passengers going to be accommodated?
i think rail has addressed this issue to some extent, but again some lines didnt exactly have much spare peak time capacity.
 

Man of Kent

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A lot of comments on this thread have alluded to a franchising system that would be geared towards punting bus passengers onto the tram. i Understood that pre-Covid Metrolink was running close to, or exceeding, available capacity at peak times. Therefore, with little room to expand the capacity on the trams, just where are all these bus passengers going to be accommodated?
i think rail has addressed this issue to some extent, but again some lines didnt exactly have much spare peak time capacity.
Simple. You ask government for money for more trams. Worked last time.
 

carlberry

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Simple. You ask government for money for more trams. Worked last time.
Yeah, Andy Burnham is very popular with the government at present! However if he promises to call them 'Boris Trams', 'Leveling up' trams or 'World Beating' trams and Boris can have a photo op in front of them in a hi vis vest then he can have them!
 

Volvodart

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Do we know the bus companies supporting franchising? Is it the same as before Go Ahead and Abellio?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Do we know the bus companies supporting franchising? Is it the same as before Go Ahead and Abellio?
Go North West has a more nuanced view in that they are looking to influence it more to a London style model; starting with a partnership model and direct awards initially before moving to a franchise model in due course.

As this article in Route ONE states, supporters franchising include Abellio, Keolis, RATP Dev, Transdev Blazefield and Warrington’s Own Buses. https://www.route-one.net/bus-routes/manchester-bus-franchising-close-after-overwhelming-support/

It's wholly understandable. If you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, then you will be in favour. Whereas, if you have recently bought a large depot from First, invested in a fleet of new deckers and then have the risk of losing the business, getting bottom dollar for the property and having a fire sale of redundant deckers, then naturally, you ain't gonna be in favour.
 

domcoop7

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Go North West has a more nuanced view in that they are looking to influence it more to a London style model; starting with a partnership model and direct awards initially before moving to a franchise model in due course.
AKA we support franchising so long as you rig it so that we end up with the contracts and get to keep our network!

Nice try.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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AKA we support franchising so long as you rig it so that we end up with the contracts and get to keep our network!

Nice try.
I can only suppose that when Go Ahead and Rotala bought the Manchester and Bolton depots from First, it was in the knowledge that franchising was a very definite aspiration for TfGM and Andy Burnham. These purchases would provide a ready-made footprint/base from which to tender for routes etc.

Instead, the proposed scheme is that they could lose their purchases overnight and only receive the rock bottom price for the property. Rotala is seeking a full judicial review whilst Go Ahead initially held the same view but has now changed its position so that they don't lose everything overnight and that there's a phased transition to a world more akin to London.
 

domcoop7

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I can only suppose that when Go Ahead and Rotala bought the Manchester and Bolton depots from First, it was in the knowledge that franchising was a very definite aspiration for TfGM and Andy Burnham. These purchases would provide a ready-made footprint/base from which to tender for routes etc.

Instead, the proposed scheme is that they could lose their purchases overnight and only receive the rock bottom price for the property. Rotala is seeking a full judicial review whilst Go Ahead initially held the same view but has now changed its position so that they don't lose everything overnight and that there's a phased transition to a world more akin to London.
Although as you correctly say, it makes clear in both the article you published and in the more detailed minutes of the GMCA which I read earlier, that such a process would not be lawful.

They could make a direct award, say, to Arriva to cover some Wigan routes if Stagecoach got the hump and pulled out of Wigan altogether. It would be justified because (in my hypothetical example) Arriva already do some routes in that area from their St Helens depot, and it would be an emergency situation to make sure there was no loss of coverage.

They could also, probably, buy a bus company outright that wanted to leave the area and make a direct award to their own in-house bus company. If the Building Buses Better document comes to fruition, it talks about allowing the public sector to create their own bus companies from scratch (again). It would be iffy from an EU law point of view as "State Aid", but of course post-Brexit, that isn't going to be the big issue it once was.

But entering into a partnership with Go Ahead as an interim (which would have the effect of freezing anybody else out), and then making a direct award to the incumbent would be against competition rules, as it would just favour one private company over all the others for no good reason.

The depots issue is a weird one. Yet another example I think of the TfGM biting off more than they can chew, without realising it (as the Strategic Rail Authority and then the DfT did with many a rail franchise over the years). They say they will buy any bus depot at "fair market value" from any operator who wants to sell. What's a "fair value"? What I'd pay for a bus depot in a deregulated Manchester where I'd be one of the biggest operators is nothing like the price I'd pay for a depot I potentially can't actually use and which would probably be too big anyway for the size of the franchises they are proposing. And presumably they plan to lease them to any operators who win the contracts. What if the operator doesn't want or need it? What if it needs upgrading?

I imagine before long they'll have some empty depots sitting there until they decide to knock them down and build houses on them (which possibility also feeds into the question of what is a "fair value").

As I understand it, in London, depots and garages are owned by the operators not TfL.

Also noteworthy from the minutes of the meeting I read is that the proposed franchising plan routes have been fixed. They definitely won't be cross-boundary as the route list is shown in an annexe and they are all stated to terminate within the GM boundary. Every adjoining local authority has raised questions about this in their reply to the consultation, Cheshire East even saying they fear a "hard border" will become established(!). Merseyside and West Yorkshire say they wish to "continue discussions". Yet nothing to suggest TfGM is taking this into account (or even cares).
 

Megafuss

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AKA we support franchising so long as you rig it so that we end up with the contracts and get to keep our network!

Nice try.
The issue GNW face is that they have inherited a Labour Agreement which leaves them at a disadvantage when putting in for franchise routes.

If "Bob's Banger Buses" don't need to worry about things such as "Blind Time" and an over abundance of spare duties, then they will undercut GNW as they can provide routes for less.

Now, what isn't clear is if a newcomer would inherit that agreement if running from Queens Road (for example) or they'll decide for themselves "nah, we'll get staff on our terms"
 

domcoop7

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The issue GNW face is that they have inherited a Labour Agreement which leaves them at a disadvantage when putting in for franchise routes.

If "Bob's Banger Buses" don't need to worry about things such as "Blind Time" and an over abundance of spare duties, then they will undercut GNW as they can provide routes for less.

Now, what isn't clear is if a newcomer would inherit that agreement if running from Queens Road (for example) or they'll decide for themselves "nah, we'll get staff on our terms"
Well that's TUPE regulations. I am a lawyer, but I am not a TUPE lawyer, so I wouldn't like to say.

In general if you take over a substantial "undertaking", then you inherit the employees and their terms and conditions. You can try to change them, but if the employees don't agree you'll have to terminate their contracts and then hire them back (or hire new staff). That's not straightforward, and it can be expensive (as redundancy payments and other contractual dues may need to paid). And if the union doesn't like it, then you risk strike action as we've seen.

Now if GM Franchised a "basket" of routes, which happened to be all the routes run out of Queen's Road, and if Go sold the depot to Greater Manchester, or Bob's New Buses, and then Bob's New Buses starting running from there, then I'd say they'd be stuck with the old terms under TUPE.

On the other hand, if the "basket" of routes that Bob's New Buses wins included a few from Oldham, a couple from Ashton, ten from Bolton, the guided busway, and the 192, and if they run it from Hyde Road, then I'd say they wouldn't be stuck with TUPE because it's not the same undertaking - it's an entirely new organisation doing something completely different.

But I would imagine, given the political composition of Greater Manchester, and the power of the unions, that TfGM would probably go out of their way to make sure that TUPE does apply. After all, "Labour's Burnham takes over buses and 500 long serving drivers made redundant" wouldn't quite be the headlines they are looking for!
 

carlberry

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The issue GNW face is that they have inherited a Labour Agreement which leaves them at a disadvantage when putting in for franchise routes.

If "Bob's Banger Buses" don't need to worry about things such as "Blind Time" and an over abundance of spare duties, then they will undercut GNW as they can provide routes for less.

Now, what isn't clear is if a newcomer would inherit that agreement if running from Queens Road (for example) or they'll decide for themselves "nah, we'll get staff on our terms"
One of the things that will apply to whatever happens is TUPE; so that whatever staff choose to stay transfer to the new company on the same terms. I believe that would apply even if you got rid of the depot as well as the company, because the job (driving buses on services in that area of Manchester) would remain. Some of the terms might not be covered by TUPE of course (number of spare duties for example), however is a Labour mayor wanting to be connected with a dispute about working practices!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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One of the things that will apply to whatever happens is TUPE; so that whatever staff choose to stay transfer to the new company on the same terms. I believe that would apply even if you got rid of the depot as well as the company, because the job (driving buses on services in that area of Manchester) would remain. Some of the terms might not be covered by TUPE of course (number of spare duties for example), however is a Labour mayor wanting to be connected with a dispute about working practices!
TUPE would undoubtedly apply but there are elements that aren't protected (e.g.) or circumstances that can enable a revision to contracts under ETO terms. It does give a lot of protection but it isn't as all encompassing as some may think.
 

WatcherZero

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A lot of comments on this thread have alluded to a franchising system that would be geared towards punting bus passengers onto the tram. i Understood that pre-Covid Metrolink was running close to, or exceeding, available capacity at peak times. Therefore, with little room to expand the capacity on the trams, just where are all these bus passengers going to be accommodated?
i think rail has addressed this issue to some extent, but again some lines didnt exactly have much spare peak time capacity.

Yes and thats the misconception, the plan is actually focusing on building an orbital bus network linking all the towns around the city centre directly to each other so you dont have to travel 10 miles into the city centre and 10 back out again to go 5 miles east or west. Naturally if your going to the opposite side of the county going through the centre is still the logical choice.
 
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edwin_m

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Yes and thats the misconception, the plan is actually focusing on building an orbital bus network linking all the towns around the city centre directly to each other so you dont have to travel 10 miles into the city centre and 10 back out again to go 5 miles east or west. Naturally if your going to the opposite side of the county going through the centre is still the logical choice.
With services as they are today, I imagine people doing such a journey will drive if they can or just not travel, to the detriment of the towns in question which are mostly pretty deprived. An example of what I described above as making the cake bigger instead of fighting over the slices.
 

carlberry

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Yes and thats the misconception, the plan is actually focusing on building an orbital bus network linking all the towns around the city centre directly to each other so you dont have to travel 10 miles into the city centre and 10 back out again to go 5 miles east or west. Naturally if your going to the opposite side of the county going through the centre is still the logical choice.
If that's the plan why isnt it being done today? The transport authority can just put out the tenders for the routes they want and somebody will run them!
 

domcoop7

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If that's the plan why isnt it being done today? The transport authority can just put out the tenders for the routes they want and somebody will run them!
Yes.

And which routes anyway? We have Trafford Centre - Wigan, Wigan - Bolton, Bolton - Bury, Bury - Rochdale, Rochdale - Oldham, Oldham - Ashton, Ashton - Hyde, Hyde - Stockport, Stockport - Altrincham already.

Perhaps we're talking something like Leigh - Partington, or Worsley - Sale via Carrington, but who realistically wants to travel in that way? You could put ten deckers an hour on, for free, and I doubt you'd have many takers.

Anyway the list of services has been published and it is here:- https://democracy.greatermanchester...nchester Franchising Scheme for Buses 20_.pdf (on page 5).

I see North Manchester General, and the Trafford Centre, and some of the town to town routes I listed above that already exist. Other than that, and some local routes / local circulars, Manchester City Centre is the only destination. (I haven't gone through each one by one so I may be missing something though).
 

edwin_m

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I wonder if a good name for a Corbynesque-style transport undertaking to run bus services, with a hint of "the wheels on the bus go round and round", would be Momentum Transport... :)
IF the wheels are going round, wouldn't that make it angular momentum?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yes.

And which routes anyway? We have Trafford Centre - Wigan, Wigan - Bolton, Bolton - Bury, Bury - Rochdale, Rochdale - Oldham, Oldham - Ashton, Ashton - Hyde, Hyde - Stockport, Stockport - Altrincham already.

Perhaps we're talking something like Leigh - Partington, or Worsley - Sale via Carrington, but who realistically wants to travel in that way? You could put ten deckers an hour on, for free, and I doubt you'd have many takers.

Anyway the list of services has been published and it is here:- https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s13727/Appendix 5 - The Greater Manchester Franchising Scheme for Buses 20_.pdf (on page 5).

I see North Manchester General, and the Trafford Centre, and some of the town to town routes I listed above that already exist. Other than that, and some local routes / local circulars, Manchester City Centre is the only destination. (I haven't gone through each one by one so I may be missing something though).
You do, of course, have other services that skirt the edges of the conurbation like the 23 Trafford Centre - Stretford - Chorlton - Stockport, and the 52/53 Orbits that circle round Manchester.

The 53 is an oft quoted example of how a service has declined since the halcyon days of Manchester Corporation and GMPTE, which it has. However, much of that is explained by changes to key flows such as the decline and disappearance of major employers like Westinghouse and even Kellogg's is reduced.

I hope we're not going to have a load of new links drawn up in isolation, arbitrarily joining up places for no reason, whilst services that are commercially viable are reduced to compensate.
 

domcoop7

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You do, of course, have other services that skirt the edges of the conurbation like the 23 Trafford Centre - Stretford - Chorlton - Stockport, and the 52/53 Orbits that circle round Manchester.

The 53 is an oft quoted example of how a service has declined since the halcyon days of Manchester Corporation and GMPTE, which it has. However, much of that is explained by changes to key flows such as the decline and disappearance of major employers like Westinghouse and even Kellogg's is reduced.

I hope we're not going to have a load of new links drawn up in isolation, arbitrarily joining up places for no reason, whilst services that are commercially viable are reduced to compensate.
The 53! Does it still exist? Brings back memories as a 12 year old going the whole way round for (IIRC) 18 pence on my way home from school! My (very hazy) memory was that the bus was empty most of the way even then.

That route isn't in the published franchise plan yet, I think that would be in a future tranche.

In the published routes, it just looks pretty much the same as today. Start times and frequencies haven't been published yet though, so maybe that's where they're going to use the money?
 

Robertj21a

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The 53! Does it still exist? Brings back memories as a 12 year old going the whole way round for (IIRC) 18 pence on my way home from school! My (very hazy) memory was that the bus was empty most of the way even then.

That route isn't in the published franchise plan yet, I think that would be in a future tranche.

In the published routes, it just looks pretty much the same as today. Start times and frequencies haven't been published yet though, so maybe that's where they're going to use the money?
Has Burnham now decided to go ahead? I gather there's been an update.
 

Bletchleyite

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Has Burnham now decided to go ahead? I gather there's been an update.

The news would certainly suggest so. I wish him luck, and I hope it is a success in finally bringing the UK back into line with basically every other European country, and in ending this mind-numbingly silly idea of city routes standing alone, and instead creating a proper integrated transport network fit for what some would argue is England's second city, or if not certainly its third.
 

WatcherZero

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Well there would be management savings of no longer duplicating HR and management across two dozen different companies. TfGM also wouldnt need the staff dealing with the existing subsidised services, oversight of commercial services, ticketing, promotional, service information and contract agreements who could simply transfer into the new franchising management roles.

Stagecoach Manchester alone was generating a net profit of £15-20m per year, over the four year startup period that single companies network pays half the startup costs.
OneBus the GM Commercial bus operators lobbying group owned by Stagecoach in their alternative to franchising proposal (now withdrawn due to Covid) suggested they could begin collectively donating £25m a year to the public purse for infrastructure and green fleet investment while remaining privatised and turning a profit.
 
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domcoop7

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Well there would be management savings of no longer duplicating HR and management across two dozen different companies.
Not really, as the proposal is for 10 large franchise contracts and 25 small ones. If these all went to different companies, then you'd have 35 sets of HR and management still, either way.

Let's say you remove the £20m per year and TfGM keeps it. (which of course presupposes that the new structure will still be geared to making a profit, which by definition it won't, so even that is flaky.) Not only is that peanuts in the scheme of things, what happens when investment is needed? The profit Stageoach was making was payback for its investment. GM Combined Authority will either have to borrow money to pay for the investment, or increase council taxes. So all you've done is replace "profits" with "cost of borrowing", or hidden the cost away by making ratepayers shoulder it.

We have a franchised system in London. Despite being Europe's biggest transport network by a country mile, it still costs a fortune to run and has a £1 billion / year operating deficit.

There may be arguments in favour of franchising, but saving money isn't one of them.
 
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