Approach Speeds and Speed limits at Stations and Platforms

[Joliver]

Presumably the driver has already decided that they are operating in low adhesion conditions and is driving manually?

We can drive in PM mode if the train isn't acting accordingly in low adhesion (operating in an unsafe way). You can always hit the emergency brakes too.

 

[hexagon789]

Surprisingly, no drivers won’t drop down to Manual mode, it will stay in ATO, and the computer on board will adapt the braking as required based upon known factors. Drivers should always be driving in the highest mode available at all times.

I will admit that 40mph at the ramp with buffers in front takes some getting used too!!

I don't find that surprising as any routes specifically adjusted for ATO running without any lineside signage etc would be impossible to drive manually anyway. Obviously doesn't matter on lines where the ATO is essentially overlaid on traditional driving practice.

I did wonder what the procedure for dealing with low adhesion was - if the driver had to select a different braking maximum rate so the ATO knew to anticipate poor adhesion before starting the journey or something. At least a driver in full control can adapt to the weather conditions more readily

 

[sw1ller]

We have ERTMS on some of our trains and I use level “0” which means it’s switched off. However, I still have to log in before I get brake release. The normal level for use on the Cambrian is level “2” and there is an option to select low adhesion mode.
I’ve never used it but I assume it makes you brake much earlier.

 

[Charlie2555]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

Every single platform on the Fasts on the GWML (except Reading, which is HST95) between Ladbroke Grove (where the speed increases nearby to 100mph), and Didcot Parkway.

Chippenham is an example of an island platform with a 125mph speed limit through it, though not many trains go through there at line speed.

1Lxx services between S. Wales-London on diversion via the Rhubarb Curve, or diverted 1Cxx/1Axx West Country trains are your best bet.

 

[43066]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

Ebbsfleet International must be the UK’s single fastest, with Eurostars passing through at line speed (albeit only a couple per day at the moment).

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Obviously depends on traction and platform length but lets say it’s 300 yards, 55mph is definitely aggressive. Like you said 30-35mph is about right. 40-45mph is on the aggressive side but still comfortable, any higher than 45mph is pushing it. But a few drivers particularly the old ex-BR ones like to test the limit especially on the traction in your picture

Certainly when I was learning that particular type of traction there were certain “old school” drivers whose habits we were encouraged not to observe.

Having since been in cab with a couple, it is rather like watching someone rowing a boat! Not the way things are taught now, but works for them.

 

[plugwash]

Doesn't ebsfleet have bypass lines such that the nonstop trains are not immediately next to the platforms?

 

[edwin_m]

Doesn't ebsfleet have bypass lines such that the nonstop trains are not immediately next to the platforms?

Yes. Platforms aren't allowed on tracks where the speed is above 125mph, except possibly with some arrangement when they check nobody is present when a fast train is due.

 

[bramling]

55mph into a platform in passenger service takes bigger cojones than I have!

Yes even the Victoria Line can’t manage that!

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Ebbsfleet International must be the UK’s single fastest, with Eurostars passing through at line speed (albeit only a couple per day at the moment).

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Certainly when I was learning that particular type of traction there were certain “old school” drivers whose habits we were encouraged not to observe.

Having since been in cab with a couple, it is rather like watching someone rowing a boat! Not the way things are taught now, but works for them.

It is interesting to watch how “old hands” drive, or in particular how they used to drive in the past. I watched an old Merseyrail cab ride filmed in the early 90s, on one of them the driver can clearly be seen tearing around in the wet, no cautious approach to red signals in those days. Depending on who one listens to, it seems to be a case that either they knew what they were doing, or that lots of minor incidents happened under the radar. The jury’s probably out on that one.

Certainly on LU faster driving was more encouraged in the past. It was even in the rule book to enter platforms as fast as conditions would permit. Again, it’s almost certain a fair amount of minor stuff happened under the radar. I certainly remember many years ago being on an Underground train which was clearly tripped, followed by the cab door opening and the driver walking back through the car peering through the windows looking downwards...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2021 ==

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

On the ECML there’s certainly a few south of Peterborough at 125mph. The line speed reduces inwards from Knebworth though.

Stevenage is quite a hairy one, the place is a bit of a wind tunnel, and the platform area at the foot of the stairwells can be quite crowded. Not much that can be done about it really.

 

[driver9000]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

Several 125mph lines where trains pass the platform without stopping.

 

[hexagon789]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

As others have said there are quite a few stations on 125mph lines, Northallerton is one where it's 125mph for good distance in both directions.

Stevenage another but not as far into a 125 section, but linespeed is still 115 south of Knebworth so most trains can make 125 by Stevenage on a clear run.

 

[The Planner]

Slightly off topic, but where is the fastest through station, can one stand on a platform with trains passing at over 100mph? Obviously not including fly overs etc, I mean passing beside or inbetween platforms.

Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby and Didcot for starters I would have thought?

 

[Mordac]

The Trent Valley stations on the WCML line as well?

 

[40129]

The Trent Valley stations on the WCML line as well?

Only at Nuneaton as Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield TV and Rugeley TV platforms are on the slow lines only.

Not sure what the line speed through the high level platforms at Tamworth is - would be surprised if it's above 100mph

 

[mrgreen]

The high point of my day as a commuter in 1978 was waiting at Didcot for the non-stop morning HST into Paddington: another up HST preceded it at the full 125mph .... apparently coming straight at you, then curving though the platform.

 

[Watershed]

Only at Nuneaton as Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield TV and Rugeley TV platforms are on the slow lines only.

Not sure what the line speed through the high level platforms at Tamworth is - would be surprised if it's above 100mph

AFAIK Tamworth is the only intersection of 125mph lines in the UK. Both the low level fast lines, and the high level lines, are 125mph. Quite impressive when you see a Pendolino and HST meet perpendicularly at line speed!

Slough is often suggested as one of the most dangerous platforms in terms of non-stop trains. You get 125mph trains passing right behind commuters queueing to leave the station along the down main platform.

 

[jfollows]

Only at Nuneaton as Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield TV and Rugeley TV platforms are on the slow lines only.

Line speed on the slow lines, for example through Lichfield TV, is EPS 125.
EDIT But not 125 on all the slow line sections mentioned, sorry for the vague wording. https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix February 2021.pdf page 50.

 

[peteb]

Not sure what the line speed at Bletchley is, but there they have the fast line platforns fenced off, with access gates for the intrepid.......

 

[jfollows]

Not sure what the line speed at Bletchley is, but there they have the fast line platforns fenced off, with access gates for the intrepid.......

Also EPS 125

 

[edwin_m]

It is interesting to watch how “old hands” drive, or in particular how they used to drive in the past. I watched an old Merseyrail cab ride filmed in the early 90s, on one of them the driver can clearly be seen tearing around in the wet, no cautious approach to red signals in those days. Depending on who one listens to, it seems to be a case that either they knew what they were doing, or that lots of minor incidents happened under the radar. The jury’s probably out on that one.

Certainly on LU faster driving was more encouraged in the past. It was even in the rule book to enter platforms as fast as conditions would permit. Again, it’s almost certain a fair amount of minor stuff happened under the radar. I certainly remember many years ago being on an Underground train which was clearly tripped, followed by the cab door opening and the driver walking back through the car peering through the windows looking downwards...

I'd question whether somewhat more assertive driving on the approaches to stations actually creates any significant hazard. There might be an overrun now and again, but that's essentially an operational inconvenience rather than a safety issue (now we have power doors - but would need to make sure the guard didn't open them if the train had overrrun). Things may be different if the platform starter is at danger, or at buffer stops, but a policy that enforced a more cautious approach in those situations might actually help with emphasising the greater risk they present.

Not sure what the line speed at Bletchley is, but there they have the fast line platforns fenced off, with access gates for the intrepid.......

Plenty of four-platform stations have this on the fast platforms if trains don't normally stop - anti-suicide measure.

 

[peteb]

Also EPS 125

Many thanks

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Folklore (i.e. elderly relatives) tells of screeching halts at Rugby Central in later BR days, LMS class 5 plus 5 carriages slamming the brakes on from 60mph nearing the platform, sparks from brake blocks. It would be good to see a video if one exists!

 

[Snow1964]

Perhaps it is time to link one of UKs newest railways, this is a signalling and speed diagram of part of Elizabeth line (Canary Wharf - Plumsted)
The line speeds are shown as 44, 50, 56, 62 mph (presumably an imperial conversion of 70, 80, 90, 100 Km/h) on bottom of diagram

Do any other British lines use speed limits in 6mph increments (it is usually 5mph increments)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ccos-signalling-notice-plan-3-of-6.pdf

And here is the main Central section where stations (with their platform doors) seem to be limited to 44mph (70Km/h)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ccos-signalling-notice-plan-2-of-6.pdf

 

[liam456]

Perhaps it is time to link one of UKs newest railways, this is a signalling and speed diagram of part of Elizabeth line (Canary Wharf - Plumsted)
The line speeds are shown as 44, 50, 56, 62 mph (presumably an imperial conversion of 70, 80, 90, 100 Km/h) on bottom of diagram

Do any other British lines use speed limits in 6mph increments (it is usually 5mph increments)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ccos-signalling-notice-plan-3-of-6.pdf

And here is the main Central section where stations (with their platform doors) seem to be limited to 44mph (70Km/h)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ccos-signalling-notice-plan-2-of-6.pdf

Looking at the signalling diagrams, what is the point of a co-acting signal where it's all CBTC and there are no lights on sticks? What would a co-acting signal even be?

 

[Watershed]

Looking at the signalling diagrams, what is the point of a co-acting signal where it's all CBTC and there are no lights on sticks? What would a co-acting signal even be?

I think it's just referring to a co-acting board indicating the limit of authority. It's co-acting in the same way a signal is - duplicated for better visibility.

 

[southern442]

I will admit that 40mph at the ramp with buffers in front takes some getting used too!!

The 345s must have picked up bad habits from talking to the GWR intercity fleet
I remember being a little alarmed coming into Paddington at 40 on a HST before.
I seem to remember approaching Northallerton on a IC225 at quite a high speed too, although that could've been the staggered platforms.

 

[philthetube]

Yes even the Victoria Line can’t manage that!

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Certainly on LU faster driving was more encouraged in the past. It was even in the rule book to enter platforms as fast as conditions would permit. Again, it’s almost certain a fair amount of minor stuff happened under the radar. I certainly remember many years ago being on an Underground train which was clearly tripped, followed by the cab door opening and the driver walking back through the car peering through the windows looking downwards...

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That may or may not have been one under the radar, the driver would either be looking for the signal number in order to report it or looking to see if the signal was green, checking if the train had passed the block joint, he could even have been looking for some other obstruction on the track which caused the train to be tripped though this would be difficult to see from inside the train.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

The 345s must have picked up bad habits from talking to the GWR intercity fleet
I remember being a little alarmed coming into Paddington at 40 on a HST before.
I seem to remember approaching Northallerton on a IC225 at quite a high speed too, although that could've been the staggered platforms.

I've definitely seen 50 coming into Reading with a green on the other end

 

[southern442]

I've definitely seen 50 coming into Reading with a green on the other end

GWR drivers in general must be quite light on their feet, I've been on 387s that have reached quite ridiculous speeds inbetween consecutive stations in suburban London.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

GWR drivers in general must be quite light on their feet, I've been on 387s that have reached quite ridiculous speeds inbetween consecutive stations in suburban London.

You’ll definitely get up to line speed between some stations on that stretch!
1D90 - that used to be Paddington-Reading-Didcot on the Mains - used to get a pretty crazy run out of it.