Kings Cross for Nottingham?

[Crossforth]

I still dream of one London terminus for all trains from the South, combining Waterloo, Cannon St, Charing X, London Bridge, Victoria etc, having about 60 platforms and 300 destinations

And I thought it bad to get from the LU platforms to the EMT platforms in St.P

 

[tbtc]

I can see the logic in some links (for example running through trains from the Dartford lines through London Bridge to Waterloo East onto SWT's Richmond/ Brentford lines would free up terminal space at London and give some "cross city" links like Clapham to Greenwich)...

...however, what advantage is there in connecting KX, St P and Euston? There can't be many passengers using this route to go from Peterborough to MIlton Keynes. I can see the logic in linking Euston to the "Thameslink" lines, and linking KX/ St P to the "Charing Cross" branch of the Northern Line (since Waterloo has no direct rail link to them), but is this a priority? Or are there other reasons?

(and can we build similar travellators between the stations in Wigan and Eton?)

 

[LE Greys]

I can see the logic in some links (for example running through trains from the Dartford lines through London Bridge to Waterloo East onto SWT's Richmond/ Brentford lines would free up terminal space at London and give some "cross city" links like Clapham to Greenwich)...

That actually used to happen, however the link was hardly ever used (except for the South Western mail train to Dover) and closed some time around 1911. It would be a bit difficult to reinstate it, considering there is now a massive building in the way.

...however, what advantage is there in connecting KX, St P and Euston? There can't be many passengers using this route to go from Peterborough to MIlton Keynes. I can see the logic in linking Euston to the "Thameslink" lines, and linking KX/ St P to the "Charing Cross" branch of the Northern Line (since Waterloo has no direct rail link to them), but is this a priority? Or are there other reasons?

The best answer there would really be a free cable-hauled shuttle running more-or-less under the British Library, either just above or just below Thameslink level, with a big dip in the middle to pass under the vaults (making acceleration and braking easy). I'm thinking along the lines of the one at Birmingham Airport. Assuming that's too pricey, how much room does a travolator take up compared with the Circle Line? I reckon it's just about possible to cram one in alongside, ideally with access at Underground ticket hall level. It might well be a good idea to expand the Euston ticket hall anyway, perhaps with a passage to Euston Square.

However, going for something more radical, I once saw a plan to divert Thameslink down a new tunnel under Gray's Inn Road to Chancery Lane and Blackfriars. This was to allow the Moorgate branch to extend to Liverpool Street and connect with a new tunnel from South Hampstead to Pentonville Road (presumably via Euston). Basically, an alternative Crossrail, taking in the Watford d.c. lines and Shenfield services, also possibly a link from Queen's Park to Old Oak. I wonder if it's possible to salvage the Euston-Moorgate part of that?

(and can we build similar travellators between the stations in Wigan and Eton?)

If we can find both room and money, go right ahead. The same for Glasgow Queen Street and Central (although a cable shuttle would work there as well).

 

[stut]

I still dream of one London terminus for all trains from the South, combining Waterloo, Cannon St, Charing X, London Bridge, Victoria etc, having about 60 platforms and 300 destinations

See, they had this great idea in Brussels... There was Nord/Noord, Midi/Zuid, Ouest/West and Quartier Leopold/Leopoldswijk. They thought - wouldn't it be great to link them all up? And so they did, through massive cut-and-cover tunnels betwen Nord and Midi, branches off to the West and to QL.

And, I have to say, they ended up with some of the worst stations I've been to in a European city. It's a real shame, as the concept was solid (and is certainly convenient).

 

[LE Greys]

See, they had this great idea in Brussels... There was Nord/Noord, Midi/Zuid, Ouest/West and Quartier Leopold/Leopoldswijk. They thought - wouldn't it be great to link them all up? And so they did, through massive cut-and-cover tunnels betwen Nord and Midi, branches off to the West and to QL.

And, I have to say, they ended up with some of the worst stations I've been to in a European city. It's a real shame, as the concept was solid (and is certainly convenient).

Seems as though the Germans managed to get it to work with Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

 

[stut]

Seems as though the Germans managed to get it to work with Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

True, but only after many man years of Zoo in the west and the horrendous Lichtenberg in the east. I'll admit they had other issues at the time

 

[jon0844]

Euston Road is a grim place to walk along, and the traffic light timings seem to be designed to actively discourage walking.

There's one crossing ISTR that doesn't even have a pedestrian crossing phase (or was) and you do seem to get a lot beggars that jump on you. It's on Euston road between Euston/King's Cross where I've been regularly approached by very smart gentlemen asking for money because they themselves have been mugged or had their wallet/phone stolen when out*.

They've never been aggressive but at night it isn't pleasant.

* I haven't done this walk for at least a year, so it may have all changed.

 

[38Cto15E]

There would be no need for Nottingham-Kings Cross services if the old LMS line from Nottingham to Melton Mowbray had been kept open.

It's hyperthetical but perhaps a BM could work out a 2010 time with HST/222 for Nottingham to St Pancras via Old Dalby, Melton Jct, Manton Jct etc

Upgraded line speeds would need to be assumed, and I wouldnt fancy crossing Harringworth viaduct at 110 mph

 

[Aictos]

However, going for something more radical, I once saw a plan to divert Thameslink down a new tunnel under Gray's Inn Road to Chancery Lane and Blackfriars. This was to allow the Moorgate branch to extend to Liverpool Street and connect with a new tunnel from South Hampstead to Pentonville Road (presumably via Euston). Basically, an alternative Crossrail, taking in the Watford d.c. lines and Shenfield services, also possibly a link from Queen's Park to Old Oak. I wonder if it's possible to salvage the Euston-Moorgate part of that?

The Green Party had a similar proposal which was to extend the Northern City Line though Moorgate, enlarge the Waterloo and City (connecting the two lines together and come out somewhere near Richmond.

Click Here

However back to the Thameslink route, I believe there were two lines to Moorgate as there was the Great Northern/Midland route via Farringdon and also a Southern route which diverge just north of City Thameslink.

 

[Welshman]

I like the idea of some sort of rapid transport connection between Euston, St Pancras International and Domestic and King's Cross, but further underground passages, tunnels, etc, seem too complicated with the existing services already there, and the British Library in the middle. But if anyone had a few billion pounds spare, what would be the problem with a monorail system, rather like that at Birmingham Airport, linking the three? With lifts/travellators from ground level, it could be an easy way to make the journey with luggage, and might even rival the London Eye as a tourist attraction in the process!

 

[me123]

I could even see how you might actually join up the stations, by getting rid of the road (redirect it along either side of King's Cross and St Pancras) and put over a roof over part, or all, with more shops and leisure facilities in the middle.

You might then in another 10-20 years look to having an underground subway to link you to Euston (with travelators) to save you from using the tube.

You then have three major stations on the ECML, MML and WCML effectively linked up.

I love this idea. It's one of the things that would benefit the railways as a whole, and help with connections, as well as the City itself. Out of curiosity, would it be possible to add a Platform 12 at London King's Cross (with or without this suggestion?). It looks possible from the maps, but likely to be quite invasive.

As for Nottingham-King's Cross... there's just not enough space in King's Cross. I have no experience of the station (simsig aside!), but anecdotally I know that services in and out of the station are extremely busy, and that capacity for additional services is very limited due to bottlenecks at Welwyn and Hitchin (and elsewhere). If you want to help the Nottingham service, you'd be better off on the whole upgrading the existing line to St Pancras.

 

[jon0844]

I like the idea of some sort of rapid transport connection between Euston, St Pancras International and Domestic and King's Cross, but further underground passages, tunnels, etc, seem too complicated with the existing services already there, and the British Library in the middle. But if anyone had a few billion pounds spare, what would be the problem with a monorail system, rather like that at Birmingham Airport, linking the three? With lifts/travellators from ground level, it could be an easy way to make the journey with luggage, and might even rival the London Eye as a tourist attraction in the process!

It might be unsightly to some, but it does solve a problem and could indeed link up King's Cross with Euston very easily along the Euston Road. The DLR is built like this, so I wonder why this has never been suggested?

In fact, given the problems along Oxford Street, that's another place that could have an elevated transport system with lifts/escalators at a few points along the way.

 

[LE Greys]

I love this idea. It's one of the things that would benefit the railways as a whole, and help with connections, as well as the City itself. Out of curiosity, would it be possible to add a Platform 12 at London King's Cross (with or without this suggestion?). It looks possible from the maps, but likely to be quite invasive.

As for Nottingham-King's Cross... there's just not enough space in King's Cross. I have no experience of the station (simsig aside!), but anecdotally I know that services in and out of the station are extremely busy, and that capacity for additional services is very limited due to bottlenecks at Welwyn and Hitchin (and elsewhere). If you want to help the Nottingham service, you'd be better off on the whole upgrading the existing line to St Pancras.

Well, if they did the sensible thing and connected the Great Northern suburban service into Thameslink, then platform space would not be so much of a concern (after all, King's Cross - 12 platforms, St Pancras Midland - 4 platforms). As for the Welwyn paths, I was considering something either replacing or coupled to the planned Newark/Lincoln service, so using no new paths compared with 'Eureka!'. Having said that, I do like the idea of expanding into the site of the old parcels platforms, as long as it was done with careful concern to the architecture (no good demolishing one eyesore out the front and building another round the side).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might be unsightly to some, but it does solve a problem and could indeed link up King's Cross with Euston very easily along the Euston Road. The DLR is built like this, so I wonder why this has never been suggested?

In fact, given the problems along Oxford Street, that's another place that could have an elevated transport system with lifts/escalators at a few points along the way.

Interesting idea. It would hardly be noticeable at Euston (hideous anyway) but at St Pancras it would have to be kept away from the facade. It could run at concourse level, entering through a hole in the side of the new section. In-between, it would probably be high enough to clear the British Library, which would allow it to head in the direction of Euston Road, then change direction again and finish on top of Euston itself, with a lift to the concourse. Euston still needs a bigger Tube ticket hall, better access to the surface and a connection to Euston Square, but I suppose that would be cheaper than digging up Euston Road.

 

[swt_passenger]

However back to the Thameslink route, I believe there were two lines to Moorgate as there was the Great Northern/Midland route via Farringdon and also a Southern route which diverge just north of City Thameslink.

Smithfield curve - north of Snow Hill (later known as Holborn Viaduct low level) - the track layout is on the 'sub-brit' disused stations site here, three pics up from bottom of web page:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/snow_hill/index.shtml

Disused from 1916 and built on at some time since...

 

[tbtc]

Well, if they did the sensible thing and connected the Great Northern suburban service into Thameslink, then platform space would not be so much of a concern (after all, King's Cross - 12 platforms, St Pancras Midland - 4 platforms)

This would be a big help

I've brought up the idea of a Welwyn - Finsbury Park - Moorgate - Bank - Waterloo - Clapham - Richmond service before on here, and was told that it'd be very difficult at Waterloo to connect the Waterloo & City to the "Overground" line (due to the angles/ depth etc). But is there anything stopping the Moorgate branch being extended onto the Waterloo & City?

I still don't "get" the massive need to connect KX and Euston though. Not trying to be a "killjoy", just can't see a lot of passenger journeys between the two (whereas there would be passengers transferring from Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, or Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Snow Hill or Manchester Picadilly to Manchester Victoria before the tram)

 

[jon0844]

There would probably be more people wishing to change from Euston to St Pancras for International services and vice versa than those coming in to King's Cross to go back out again.. however a proper link would no doubt have many benefits.

To be honest, you could just improve the pavement with better lighting and crossings and do the job on the cheap. Mark it well, like Leicester Square to Covent Garden, and job done.

 

[LE Greys]

This would be a big help

I've brought up the idea of a Welwyn - Finsbury Park - Moorgate - Bank - Waterloo - Clapham - Richmond service before on here, and was told that it'd be very difficult at Waterloo to connect the Waterloo & City to the "Overground" line (due to the angles/ depth etc). But is there anything stopping the Moorgate branch being extended onto the Waterloo & City?

What's the bore on the Drain? I'm not entirely sure if 313s could fit through it. However, it would certainly be possible to run Tube loading-gauge stock through it (although I can't imagine 09 Stock on the ECML). The other suggestion I've seen is extending the Docklands, but that's wandering even farther from the subject of this thread.

I still don't "get" the massive need to connect KX and Euston though. Not trying to be a "killjoy", just can't see a lot of passenger journeys between the two (whereas there would be passengers transferring from Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, or Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Snow Hill or Manchester Picadilly to Manchester Victoria before the tram)

Yes, it is more geared towards St Pancras and international connections.

 

[philjo]

The plans are on hold at the moment due to lack of funding, but the cross-river tram scheme was intended to link Kings Cross to Euston (& on to waterloo)

If you look at this document, Route option 2 shows a direct link via Brill Place.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/euston-kingscross.pdf


I think the aim for better links to Euston were primarily for interchange with International services & also now for the HS1 domestic services.
Of course if HS2 does go to Euston as outlined, then that increases the case for better links between the stations.

 

[tbtc]

if HS2 does go to Euston as outlined, then that increases the case for better links between the stations

Agreed; were this to happen then we'll have a much better case for it.

 

[jon0844]

What about my cheap idea of simply making the route, on foot, a more clearly marked, well lit and safer experience? Proper crossings for a start.

 

[Geezertronic]

What about my cheap idea of simply making the route, on foot, a more clearly marked, well lit and safer experience? Proper crossings for a start.

Would be ok if they could widen the pavement in places but that would impact on the size of Euston Road. IMO the walk from Euston to Euston Square is much better than from Euston to Kings Cross/St Pancras for the reason that the pavement is wider.

 

[shinkansen1966]

What about my cheap idea of simply making the route, on foot, a more clearly marked, well lit and safer experience? Proper crossings for a start.

That's a far too straightforward solution.

 

[LE Greys]

What about my cheap idea of simply making the route, on foot, a more clearly marked, well lit and safer experience? Proper crossings for a start.

Would be ok if they could widen the pavement in places but that would impact on the size of Euston Road. IMO the walk from Euston to Euston Square is much better than from Euston to Kings Cross/St Pancras for the reason that the pavement is wider.

That pavement is at capacity already. Unless you want to widen it by cutting into the road, there simply isn't the room and it has to be supplemented with something. Besides, half a mile for someone elderly or with lots of luggage (such as those going off on a European holiday) is quite a long distance. Airports manage similar flows with travolators and people-movers, why can't multi-station complexes do the same?

Incidentally, Euston Square needs better access from the surface (well, the same goes for half the Circle) because it's currently dependent on a few little stairways with no lift. Plugging it into Euston Tube would be a very good idea as well (although Euston itself could do with more escalators).

 

[tbtc]

Maybe extend the number eighteen bus from Euston to KX to provide more "bendi-buses" (so more capacity, simply boarding with multiple doors) on that stretch?

 

[jon0844]

By the time you cross the road at King's Cross and walk along to get to the bus stop, and then stop at all the lights, to have to get off on the wrong side of the road for Euston, you could have quite possibly walked it quicker.

 

[Deerfold]

By the time you cross the road at King's Cross and walk along to get to the bus stop, and then stop at all the lights, to have to get off on the wrong side of the road for Euston, you could have quite possibly walked it quicker.

I usually find that the bus from Euston to KGX is a reasonable proposition (no shortage of routes - 10, 30, 59, 73, 91, 205, 390, 476) - though I'd usually only bother if I had luggage. But the other way is a royal pain and usually worth walking whatever I'm carrying.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, the other way around is fine, albeit the Euston bus 'station' is a PITA for when you want to go to KGX from somewhere else and have to wait for it to go in and then queue at the lights to get back onto the Euston Road!

I convince myself that walking is good for me, but if it's raining my opinion changes somewhat!

 

[philjo]

Euston to Kings Cross can be done quite easily by bus -just have to watch which bus you get (e.g. 91 & 390 stop round the corner past Kings Cross in york Way) - some seem to be quicker than others
I somehow managed 9 minutes from my Pendolino arrving at euston & FCC 365 leaving KX platform 5 (was aiming for the train 30 minutes later but glad it wasn't leaving from 10 or 11 !) with luggage by catching the bus from Euston recently without having to run.

In the opposite direction it is not as easy/quick.
1. you have to cross the road at KX & the bus stop is not immediately opposite.
2. only 59 & 476 routes (I think) go into Euston bus station westbound so you would either have to cross the road again at Euston from other services or wait for the 59/476 at KX.
By the time you have done this you could have walked it. I have sometimes caught the bus if I have got luggage or if it is raining.

 

[swt_passenger]

Airports manage similar flows with travolators and people-movers, why can't multi-station complexes do the same?

They don't normally have something like the British Library, with all its basement levels, slap bang in the middle of the obvious direct route. Once you add in all the underground routes of the Victoria and Northern lines, the St Pancras tunnels (Thameslink route) etc etc, your link has to be either ridiculously deep, or at a high (rooftop) level.

I reckon the obvious route for a purpose built higher level link would have to be a few hundred yards back from the Euston Rd, between the St Pancras 'cross passage' ie the domestic ticket hall area, and entering the Euston concourse from the side. Problem is it's all a residential area.

Maybe a Gatwick style people mover, with the tracks heading north ish from both stations, but you're still faced with the residential area underneath.

 

[Deerfold]

Euston to Kings Cross can be done quite easily by bus -just have to watch which bus you get (e.g. 91 & 390 stop round the corner past Kings Cross in york Way) - some seem to be quicker than others
I somehow managed 9 minutes from my Pendolino arrving at euston & FCC 365 leaving KX platform 5 (was aiming for the train 30 minutes later but glad it wasn't leaving from 10 or 11 !) with luggage by catching the bus from Euston recently without having to run.

In the opposite direction it is not as easy/quick.
1. you have to cross the road at KX & the bus stop is not immediately opposite.
2. only 59 & 476 routes (I think) go into Euston bus station westbound so you would either have to cross the road again at Euston from other services or wait for the 59/476 at KX.
By the time you have done this you could have walked it. I have sometimes caught the bus if I have got luggage or if it is raining.

I'd forgotten the 59 went in - must have been before that was extended to KX since I last did the journey in that direction by bus (so at least nearly 3 years...)