We need to talk about Castlefield again.

[HST43257]

Have 8tph of a sort of heavy rail Metro running through Vic.

4tph Bolton (2 from Clitheroe, 2 from Preston) to Rochdale
4tph Wigan (2 from Skelmersdale, 2 from Kirkby) to Stalybridge.

Have a flyover on one of the sides of Salford Crescent if possible, for the 4tph going from Victoria to the Atherton Lines. As well as this, ideally 4 tracks Salford to Bolton.

This means the only routes from Preston/Wigan that need serving are Southport, Blackpool and Scotland/Cumbria.

2tph Southport to Buxton
2tph Blackpool to Stoke (?)
1tph Scotland to Man Airport
1tph Cumbria to Man Airport

Then also:
1tph Liverpool to Nottingham
1tph Saltburn/Redcar to Man Airport
1tph Hull to Man Airport (off peak only, Man Vic in peaks)
1tph FREIGHT (off peak only)
2tph Liverpool (via CLC) to Man Airport slow
2tph Liverpool (via Chat Moss) to Man Airport slow (peak only, Calder Valley in off peak)

Thats 12tph through Castlefield all day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have 8tph of a sort of heavy rail Metro running through Vic.

4tph Bolton (2 from Clitheroe, 2 from Preston) to Rochdale
4tph Wigan (2 from Skelmersdale, 2 from Kirkby) to Stalybridge.

Very difficult to justify doubling the service at Clitheroe and quadrupling that on the Kirkby branch. I'd see those as a waste of paths.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Blackpool/Bolton to Manchester Airport would be part of the S-Bahn service, potentially coming together with other stuff to provide 4tph from Bolton to south Manchester via the S-Bahn core.

So you're proposing turning regional trains into metro trains. What about service such as Nottingham to Liverpool? Also this'll give TOC's the opportunity to get rid of creature comforts such as decent seats and toilets.

A better option in my view is to have interoperability with Metrolink in Zone 1 so you don't have to create a new S-Bahn and utilise the already existing one.

 

[30907]

Very difficult to justify doubling the service at Clitheroe

It's 2tph to Blackburn already (or was).

 

[HST43257]

Very difficult to justify doubling the service at Clitheroe and quadrupling that on the Kirkby branch. I'd see those as a waste of paths.

It's 2tph to Blackburn already (or was).

Have 1 terminate at Blackburn and 1 through to Clitheroe then, as pre covid.

If you only want Merseyrail to Kirkby (going to Skem and Wigan) then 2 Northerns can go to Skem and 2 to Wigan NW.

 

[Purple Orange]

Have 1 terminate at Blackburn and 1 through to Clitheroe then, as pre covid.

If you only want Merseyrail to Kirkby (going to Skem and Wigan) then 2 Northerns can go to Skem and 2 to Wigan NW.

Why not just run it all through to Clitheroe and give the town a better service? I don’t understand this culture of judging a town (or station) and stating that X tph is not justified. Clitheroe isn’t the reason for the service, but if the ability exists to provide better public transport then it should do so.

 

[HST43257]

Why not just run it all through to Clitheroe and give the town a better service? I don’t understand this culture of judging a town (or station) and stating that X tph is not justified. Clitheroe isn’t the reason for the service, but if the ability exists to provide better public transport then it should do so.

I’m going off what other people have said, I’ve no idea about the demand. Either works.

 

[Glenn1969]

5m pax a year pre Covid between them say Bradford and Halifax should have a better service. But how do you fit it in to any proposal?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you're proposing turning regional trains into metro trains.

They already basically are. 6-car Class 331 sets are perfect for this. What you're basically doing is creating a Manchester version of Thameslink (which stretches far further from London than Blackpool is from Manchester!) Which I guess is more like the Rhein-Ruhr S-Bahn than the Hamburg one (which Merseyrail is like), but if it works...

What about service such as Nottingham to Liverpool?

That should run on NPR as far as Manchester.

Also this'll give TOC's the opportunity to get rid of creature comforts such as decent seats and toilets.

Class 331s are perfect as they are.

 

[HST43257]

5m pax a year pre Covid between them say Bradford and Halifax should have a better service. But how do you fit it in to any proposal?

1tp2h GC (slightly increased), 4tph into Leeds (as pre covid), 3tph to Manchester (as pre covid), 1tph to Blackpool (as pre covid), 2tph to Huddersfield (doubled).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have 1 terminate at Blackburn and 1 through to Clitheroe then, as pre covid.

If you only want Merseyrail to Kirkby (going to Skem and Wigan) then 2 Northerns can go to Skem and 2 to Wigan NW.

If you're going to terminate Merseyrail at Skem and have Northern meet it there, 1tph is fine. The line is a barely-used rural backwater.

 

[HST43257]

If you're going to terminate Merseyrail at Skem and have Northern meet it there, 1tph is fine. The line is a barely-used rural backwater.

I’m not going to send 1 to Skem and 3 only to Wigan. 2 and 2 is the clock face solution and the attractive one for the passenger.

 

[Purple Orange]

That should run on NPR as far as Manchester.

I'm unsure how a service calling at Liverpool, Manchester HS2, Sheffield, Nottingham or Cleethorpes will get from the HS2 track to a line to Sheffield. Every plan points to Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm unsure how a service calling at Liverpool, Manchester HS2, Sheffield, Nottingham or Cleethorpes will get from the HS2 track to a line to Sheffield. Every plan points to Leeds.

Ah. Then perhaps truncate it to Picc main trainshed and replace it at the Liverpool end with an extra TPE North. Or consider running it via Chat Moss, Vic and Denton instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2021 ==

I’m not going to send 1 to Skem and 3 only to Wigan. 2 and 2 is the clock face solution and the attractive one for the passenger.

Fair point, and I suppose it might be that Skem-Wigan traffic (which isn't insubstantial) can be taken from the roads. It's to Kirkby that there's hardly any demand.

 

[Fokx]

Is Metrolink yellow meant to be a bee? I did wonder.

No it’s meant to be mid-noughties Merseyrail

 

[HST43257]

I'm unsure how Liverpool, Manchester HS2, Sheffield, Nottingham or Cleethorpes will get from the HS2 track

Would be good to find a way to link this up from the tunnel to the Manchester to Stockport mainline.

Fair point, and I suppose it might be that Skem-Wigan traffic (which isn't insubstantial) can be taken from the roads. It's to Kirkby that there's hardly any demand.

2tph for all of these. That’s how I’d try to have it, increasing services but trying not to duplicate too much.

Liverpool to Skem
Liverpool to Wigan (+ Bolton?)
Skem to Stalybridge
Wigan to Stalybridge

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it’s meant to be mid-noughties Merseyrail

As I said, M62 envy

 

[Purple Orange]

Would be good to find a way to link this up from the tunnel to the Manchester to Stockport mainline.


2tph for all of these. That’s how I’d try to have it, increasing services but trying not to duplicate too much.

Liverpool to Skem
Liverpool to Wigan (+ Bolton?)
Skem to Stalybridge
Wigan to Stalybridge

I’ve often wondered if HS2 & NPR should commandeer P1-4 in the existing station, or at least share P3&4 with other services and P1&2 are dedicated to NPR. It would allow Liverpool-Sheffield services to access the WCML and Leeds to access the route via Guide Bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve often wondered if HS2 & NPR should commandeer P1-4 in the existing station, or at least share P3&4 with other services and P1&2 are dedicated to NPR. It would allow Liverpool-Sheffield services to access the WCML and Leeds to access the route via Guide Bridge.

If you put Marple onto Metrolink (though it'd leave the question of how to connect to Chinley) and ran the Hope Valley local via Hazel Grove, that might just work.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They already basically are.

Yeah, via Arriva being tight.

That should run on NPR as far as Manchester.

What is the plan to get it off NPHR?

Class 331s are perfect as they are.

Just you wait. If Burnham gets his way, expect there to be a fleet dedicated to shoving as many people as possible in.

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve often wondered if HS2 & NPR should commandeer P1-4 in the existing station, or at least share P3&4 with other services and P1&2 are dedicated to NPR. It would allow Liverpool-Sheffield services to access the WCML and Leeds to access the route via Guide Bridge.

Main issue is the 400m platforms needed for HS2 that mean the existing shed can't be used.

 

[HST43257]

Main issue is the 400m platforms needed for HS2 that mean the existing shed can't be used.

What if HS2 used new platforms and 200m CC (my idea) used some, or all, of 1-4?

 

[Ianno87]

What if HS2 used new platforms and 200m CC (my idea) used some, or all, of 1-4?

I suspect engineering a connection from the HS2 tunnel portal at Ardwick into the main shed would be far from straightforward. As well as the track alignment, needs also to consider things like have sufficient separation of the electrification and signalling systems too.

 

[HSTEd]

Worst come to worst, if the main shed ends up underutilised, we can move part of the station concourse into it and sell off the old concourse for development.

 

[Purple Orange]

Main issue is the 400m platforms needed for HS2 that mean the existing shed can't be used.

Oh of course. I mean that P1-4 would be for NPR only, but with a junction after the HS2 tunnel to access the existing station. HS2 trains would still need the 4x400m platform station, but by having that junction to P1-4, it gives the opportunity for 200m trains from Leeds & Sheffield connecting to Liverpool, and even Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2021 ==

Worst come to worst, if the main shed ends up underutilised, we can move part of the station concourse into it and sell off the old concourse for development.

I doubt it will become under-utilised. There might be fewer trains to begin with, but there should be longer trains coming in & out. If you picture Piccadilly on a normal day, P1-4 regularly has two (or somethimes three) trains sat there on a platform, but collectively usually no more than 8-carriages. Usually there will be a two 3-car 185s on one platform, there might be two pacers (equivalent to one 323 in length) and a 4-car 150, sometimes a Voyager comes in while a 4-car train is already parked up. Therefore while those platforms may manage 2-3 trains at one time, they will just 1 longer train at one time.

 

[LittleAH]

What if HS2 used new platforms and 200m CC (my idea) used some, or all, of 1-4?

What a capacity constraint that would be...

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a capacity constraint that would be...

Put the Marples and Hadfields onto Metrolink and it wouldn't.

 

[40129]

Couple of quick questions re Metrolink and the Hadfield/Marple routes:

1) How frequent were trains to Hadfield, Rose Hill and New Mills pre-Covid?
2) How many trams per hour terminated at Piccadilly pre-Covid?

 

[HST43257]

How frequent were trains to Hadfield, Rose Hill and New Mills pre-Covid?

2tph Hadfield
2tph Rose Hill (I think)
1tph New Mills terminating
1tph New Mills then through to Sheffield

How many trams per hour terminated at Piccadilly pre-Covid?

10tph, 5 from Altrincham and 5 from Bury. These, I believe, formed eachother. So a tram would do Altrincham - Piccadilly - Bury. I’d advise not interfering.

I disagree with ideas to put Metrolink on Hadfield/New Mills/Rose Hill, due to the fact that it’s not a segregated network. The Huddersfield and Sheffield routes are some of the busiest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree with ideas to put Metrolink on Hadfield/New Mills/Rose Hill, due to the fact that it’s not a segregated network. The Huddersfield and Sheffield routes are some of the busiest.

It'd be fairly easy to run on street from Picc down to Ashburys then via Bredbury to Rose Hill, you'd have a short section of joint running around Romiley but not a lot else. Hadfield you'd have to tram-train due to running with other things to Guide Bridge. Marple...the difficulty is what to do as far as Chinley, Metrolink all the way out there seems awkward.