Restoring Your Railway Fund: what ideas would you suggest?

[A0]

Tavistock to Plymouth reinstatement better win. That's been needed for so long.

That's tied up to developments in Tavistock taking place and the developers footing the bill. But I'm not convinced it will be the roaring success it's continually peddled as around here. Tavistock's a small place - sub 15,000 people and is about 15 miles to Plymouth. Let's look at others which are similar to this - Aberdare just over the border in Wales has a population of 40,000 and is about 20 miles to Cardiff and is in a deprived area - that just about attracts 1000 passengers a week, so less than 200 a day with a half-hourly service. What makes you think Tavistock will achieve better than that on a population that's a third the size ?

 

[yorksrob]

That's tied up to developments in Tavistock taking place and the developers footing the bill. But I'm not convinced it will be the roaring success it's continually peddled as around here. Tavistock's a small place - sub 15,000 people and is about 15 miles to Plymouth. Let's look at others which are similar to this - Aberdare just over the border in Wales has a population of 40,000 and is about 20 miles to Cardiff and is in a deprived area - that just about attracts 1000 passengers a week, so less than 200 a day with a half-hourly service. What makes you think Tavistock will achieve better than that on a population that's a third the size ?

Yet Falmouth has a population of 21k and has a very popular service.

 

[Ianno87]

Yet Falmouth has a population of 21k and has a very popular service.

Aided quite significantly by serving a university campus.

 

[A0]

Yet Falmouth has a population of 21k and has a very popular service.

Well not really - about 300k usage, which given it's a seaside town with Pendennis Castle as a tourist attraction is pretty unremarkable. The St Ives branch achieves double the usage with half the population.

And since Tavistock isn't a seaside resort, that's one less attraction. If you're going to say walkers and cyclists through Dartmoor then let's look at Windermere station as the Lakes are *far* more popular than Dartmoor for walkers and cyclists and that only gets 400k.

 

[yorksrob]

Well not really - about 300k usage, which given it's a seaside town with Pendennis Castle as a tourist attraction is pretty unremarkable. The St Ives branch achieves double the usage with half the population.

And since Tavistock isn't a seaside resort, that's one less attraction. If you're going to say walkers and cyclists through Dartmoor then let's look at Windermere station as the Lakes are *far* more popular than Dartmoor for walkers and cyclists and that only gets 400k.

300k is a perfectly respectable passenger loading for a regional route. St I'ves is a bit of an outlier as it doubles up as a park and ride metro.

Windermere does act as a local tourist hub and it's trains get very busy from that, so there is probably some scope for Tavistock to scerve walkers, albeit on a smaller scale. However Tavistock would also feed directly into Plymouth which is quite a large shopping/educational centre, whereas Windermere is a bit more of a distance to the major urban centres.

 

[A0]

300k is a perfectly respectable passenger loading for a regional route. St I'ves is a bit of an outlier as it doubles up as a park and ride metro.

Windermere does act as a local tourist hub and it's trains get very busy from that, so there is probably some scope for Tavistock to scerve walkers, albeit on a smaller scale. However Tavistock would also feed directly into Plymouth which is quite a large shopping/educational centre, whereas Windermere is a bit more of a distance to the major urban centres.

It's not - 300k is fewer than 6000 a week.

Split that over 6 days (on the grounds Sunday's are usually quieter) and you're looking at 1000 a day *at best*. Run 2 tph from 6am - 11pm and you're looking at 34 trains and that's 30 people - barely enough to fill an Optare Solo. Let alone a 2 car DMU with 5 times the capacity and 3 times the running costs.

Should Tavistock happen, I suspect it won't be a success, but as is normal around here that will be conveniently be forgotten as people point out the one or two schemes which have exceeded expectations.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not - 300k is fewer than 6000 a week.

Split that over 6 days (on the grounds Sunday's are usually quieter) and you're looking at 1000 a day *at best*. Run 2 tph from 6am - 11pm and you're looking at 34 trains and that's 30 people - barely enough to fill an Optare Solo. Let alone a 2 car DMU with 5 times the capacity and 3 times the running costs.

Should Tavistock happen, I suspect it won't be a success, but as is normal around here that will be conveniently be forgotten as people point out the one or two schemes which have exceeded expectations.

It is a perfectly good number. It's all very well cramming an "Optare Solo" (whatever that is) but in reality there are peaks and troughs and those 30 people won't be spread evenly across all services. A 2 carriage DMU is far better suited to cope with those fluctuations.

 

[Killingworth]

Well the door is closed now, and the key is in the lock...

But who'll have the courage to finally turn all the keys to bring conclusion to all these schemes? I see the process continuing in some form for decades, after all that would be my aim if I were a dedicated supporter of any of them.

 

[Irascible]

The Falmouth line ( which I wouldn't say serves a resort! Falmouth isn't a resort in the way St Ives is, at least ) got a passing loop & doubled services as recently as 2009, so something must be going ok down there.

 

[Bald Rick]

But who'll have the courage to finally turn all the keys to bring conclusion to all these schemes? I see the process continuing in some form for decades, after all that would be my aim if I were a dedicated supporter of any of them.

Ah, well now you’re asking. I’d say this process will be all wrapped up inside 12-18 months, with the selected schemes progressing for delivery. The key for Government will surely be to see some of the selected projects in service by the next General Election, which, coincidentally, is roughly when the currently allocated money must be spent by.

For the proposals not taken forward, I guess the next steps will depend on what the contents of the letter they receive say. There’s only two answers:

1) you may have a case, but there’s no money. We’ll be in touch when there is, unless you can find the money yourselves.
2) sorry you don’t have a case, we won’t be putting any more money into your proposal, please don’t darken our door again (said nicely).

 

[A0]

The Falmouth line ( which I wouldn't say serves a resort! Falmouth isn't a resort in the way St Ives is, at least ) got a passing loop & doubled services as recently as 2009, so something must be going ok down there.

No, but it does have a university with 6000 students - which means an influx of students each year. And students are more likely to use the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2021 ==

But who'll have the courage to finally turn all the keys to bring conclusion to all these schemes? I see the process continuing in some form for decades, after all that would be my aim if I were a dedicated supporter of any of them.

Some of them have been doing the rounds for decades, or at least it feels like it....

The only barking mad scheme I can think of that did eventually die a death was the one to re-open the Dunstable branch as a tourist attraction. But that was a scheme with precisely no merit, where some behaved with monumental incompetence (and possibly illegality as well) and the trackbed eventually got turned over to the busway.

Unrealistic as some of these are, I suspect the only time they will disappear will be on the death of a few of the campaign's cheerleaders.

 

[RPI]

Wellington and Cullompton must have a good case, GWR have stated that the existing Cardiff-Taunton services can be extended west to serve them, Wellington has exploded with new housing and i believe a large development is in the process of being approved in Cullompton. Langport and Somerton would be nice but can't see them attracting the numbers, cant see what would stop there unless a new stopping service between Westbury and Taunton is introduced? Obviously there is the two hourly Pad-Exeter stoppers but a new station i would have thought would need to attract an hourly service to be worthwhile!

 

[A0]

It is a perfectly good number. It's all very well cramming an "Optare Solo" (whatever that is) but in reality there are peaks and troughs and those 30 people won't be spread evenly across all services. A 2 carriage DMU is far better suited to cope with those fluctuations.

Apart from the fact it means you have one or two trains a day with an 'acceptable' load, quite a few with a minimal load and a number which are carting fresh air around - and the latter two aren't a particularly good use of resource or environmentally friendly (the second point doesn't bother me overtly, but is a bit of a shibboleth for those who keep saying rail is the way forward).

 

[Bald Rick]

Wellington and Cullompton must have a good case, GWR have stated that the existing Cardiff-Taunton services can be extended west to serve them, Wellington has exploded with new housing and i believe a large development is in the process of being approved in Cullompton.

Apparently so. I’d expect these to happen. What’s the capacity like at Exeter for the terminating services?

 

[yorksrob]

Apart from the fact it means you have one or two trains a day with an 'acceptable' load, quite a few with a minimal load and a number which are carting fresh air around - and the latter two aren't a particularly good use of resource or environmentally friendly (the second point doesn't bother me overtly, but is a bit of a shibboleth for those who keep saying rail is the way forward).

The reality is that you're never going to have as many people travelling at 9:00 at night as you get in peak times. There will always be fluctuations in how many people want to travel, and a 2 carriage DMU is a pretty good way to serve that market, hence why the Falmouth branch has recently seen investment.

 

[Irascible]

Wellington and Cullompton must have a good case, GWR have stated that the existing Cardiff-Taunton services can be extended west to serve them, Wellington has exploded with new housing and i believe a large development is in the process of being approved in Cullompton. Langport and Somerton would be nice but can't see them attracting the numbers, cant see what would stop there unless a new stopping service between Westbury and Taunton is introduced? Obviously there is the two hourly Pad-Exeter stoppers but a new station i would have thought would need to attract an hourly service to be worthwhile!

The main stumbling block for Cullompton is probably that it's literally down the road from Tiverton Parkway - however that's the wrong way if you're trying to commute to Exeter, so much will depend on figures they can produce to illustrate that, I think.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That's tied up to developments in Tavistock taking place and the developers footing the bill. But I'm not convinced it will be the roaring success it's continually peddled as around here. Tavistock's a small place - sub 15,000 people and is about 15 miles to Plymouth. Let's look at others which are similar to this - Aberdare just over the border in Wales has a population of 40,000 and is about 20 miles to Cardiff and is in a deprived area - that just about attracts 1000 passengers a week, so less than 200 a day with a half-hourly service. What makes you think Tavistock will achieve better than that on a population that's a third the size ?

Except you are out by a factor of ten! Aberdare is used by over half a million passengers a year = 10,000 a week or about 1,500 a day - probably up to 2,000 on a good day.

 

[Halifaxlad]

(pity DfT can't spell Harrogate, but that's a detail).

The more you look at this the more you realise it's just political puff. 75% of the costs of developing a business case up to £50K? That's only going to work for amateur projects - the professionals won't turn a wheel for that much money

I thought that a business case for Harrogate, Ripon - Northallerton was already done a few years ago, so presumably it will just want updating ?

 

[RPI]

The main stumbling block for Cullompton is probably that it's literally down the road from Tiverton Parkway - however that's the wrong way if you're trying to commute to Exeter, so much will depend on figures they can produce to illustrate that, I think.

Possibly, but a not insignificant town itself and also located on a motorway junction, it could potentially take passengers from Honiton/Feniton for those that live in the villages between

 

[A0]

Except you are out by a factor of ten! Aberdare is used by over half a million passengers a year = 10,000 a week or about 1,500 a day - probably up to 2,000 on a good day.

Mea culpa - but when compared to Tavistock it's about 3 times bigger and is a more deprived area, so the point still stands. Tavistock is touted as a future success story, which I'm sceptical about.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Mea culpa - but when compared to Tavistock it's about 3 times bigger and is a more deprived area, so the point still stands. Tavistock is touted as a future success story, which I'm sceptical about.

I discussed this in a social setting with some Plymouth residents and they laughed at the concept of commuters from Tavvy.

Aberdare , by the way, does better than Merthyr in normal times and would be further improved by simple extension on now disused freight lines to Hirwaun (Pond) , tapping into another wedge of population.

 

[Irascible]

Possibly, but a not insignificant town itself and also located on a motorway junction, it could potentially take passengers from Honiton/Feniton for those that live in the villages between

It's the other end of the Honiton road ( something I know too well ) but the bits between are pretty sparsely populated. Slim chance of pulling anyone from Tiverton itself, unfortunately. Council support will swing it I guess and the area will be the better for it, I just hope it's not too much of an edge case.

 

[joebassman]

What about the mid suffolk light railway, no one ever mebtions that,? Think of all the sheep and farmers missing out and I'm sure the cost for reopening stations with populations well in the low 100s is worth it, plus other than mendlesham none of it has been built on. And hey it went bankruot before it was even opened so demonstrates the greatness of British business sense

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What about the mid suffolk light railway, no one ever mebtions that,? Think of all the sheep and farmers missing out and I'm sure the cost for reopening stations with populations well in the low 100s is worth it, plus other than mendlesham none of it has been built on. And hey it went bankruot before it was even opened so demonstrates the greatness of British business sense

Excellent - and there are surely other contenders like the Bishops Castle Railway , and those with modernist carbon-friendly concepts , I raise the issue of the Southern Heights Light Railway - never built (sob !) from Orpington to Chelsfield - 3d rail single line over the chalky hills.

 

[RPI]

It's the other end of the Honiton road ( something I know too well ) but the bits between are pretty sparsely populated. Slim chance of pulling anyone from Tiverton itself, unfortunately. Council support will swing it I guess and the area will be the better for it, I just hope it's not too much of an edge case.

There are also a huge amount of new homes planned for cullompton

 

[nr758123]

Excellent - and there are surely other contenders like the Bishops Castle Railway.

I'm so disappointed you beat me to it.

Can I put in a good word for Shrewsbury to Llanymynech?

 

[Irascible]

Apparently so. I’d expect these to happen. What’s the capacity like at Exeter for the terminating services?

In the various Okehampton threads there's been a fair bit of discussion about St Davids - Central capacity: iirc the answer has generally been "not very much without remodelling". Perhaps *that* should have been an entry ( along with "get hold of more DMUs for the southwest"... ) Central is unfortunatrly the wrong shape for a commuter terminus, especially without trackwork to split the platforms ( which there's space for ) & turnback/stabling ( which there's also space for ) and I guess complete resignalling of the area...

Looking more like it really *should* deserve a place on the list.

--

I'm sure the good residents of Clevedon deserve their connection to the rail network back, when Portishead finally gets its new station. 81 years without is a disgrace!

 

[30907]

Excellent - I raise the issue of the Southern Heights Light Railway - never built (sob !) from Orpington to Chelsfield - 3d rail single line over the chalky hills.

Orpington to Sanderstead via Tatsfield. Ironically, the growth of Biggin Hill since then from ribbon development into a small town in its own right means Orpington-Biggin Hill might be viable now.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Orpington to Sanderstead via Tatsfield. Ironically, the growth of Biggin Hill since then from ribbon development into a small town in its own right means Orpington-Biggin Hill might be viable now.

Thanks - not much around on this plan - but yes , agree - could even have been integrated into Croydon Tramlink !

 

[Dave Beeching]

I think the full list has been released today:

In full: The 85 abandoned rail schemes vying for restoration funding | New Civil Engineer

The funding round closed last week, with more than 85 bids received to restore old railway lines to their former glory. The bids are dominated by schemes

www.newcivilengineer.com