Should the major timetable change continue to be in December?

[Class 170101]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/may-2021-timetable-change.213723

The problem with timetable changes in December is it then affects the Special Traffic that follows.

Think about Christmas, in theory the Long Term Plan should be ready at the start of August (if not in July) for Planners to plan special traffic to bid in mid August 18 weeks for NR to validate and publish 6 weeks later out except where are many planners in July / August?

On their holidays trying to enjoy summer like the rest of the country.

 

[Ianno87]

The problem with timetable changes in December is it then affects the Special Traffic that follows. Think about Christmas, in theory the Long Term Plan should be ready at the start of August (if not in July) for Planners to plan special traffic to bid in mid August 18 weeks for NR to validate and publish 6 weeks later out except where are many planners in July / August?

On their holidays trying to enjoy summer like the rest of the country.

They don't all go on holiday (and wouldn't be allowed to) at the same time.

This has never caused a particular problem.

 

[Class 170101]

They don't all go on holiday (and wouldn't be allowed to) at the same time.

This has never caused a particular problem.

From personal experience I must respectfully disagree with you. Whilst everyone cannot go away at once the offer needs good scruntiny and checks to make sure its right, this period has become squeezed in recent years and impacts on the STP that follows including Christmas and on occasion has been bid late due to insufficient time to carry out the work. Note Christmas 2020 was only available about seven weeks before Christmas to book - even accepting that COVID 19 was there this time.

 

[306024]

They don't all go on holiday (and wouldn't be allowed to) at the same time.

This has never caused a particular problem.

I too respectfully disagree. The pressure it puts on TOC staff to turn round the LTP offer so that the STP teams can start Christmas is very real. May not be a particular problem in NR land as the ball is in the TOCs court at that stage of the process. Having a major timetable change two weeks before Christmas is not desirable for a number of reasons.

 

[30907]

I too respectfully disagree. The pressure it puts on TOC staff to turn round the LTP offer so that the STP teams can start Christmas is very real. May not be a particular problem in NR land as the ball is in the TOCs court at that stage of the process. Having a major timetable change two weeks before Christmas is not desirable for a number of reasons.

It is a Europe-wide problem, as the likes of Mark Smith in Seat61 regularly report - though of course no other European railway that I can think of aims at T-12 . Bringing it 4 weeks earlier to mid November, or 6 weeks to coincide with the clock change, would make life easier for the passenger as well as the planners.
Or you could push it 4/8 weeks later, before the February half-term/peak ski season....
Though either way you then have to ask about the people who have to implement the changes on the ground - how would that work?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The problem with timetable changes in December is it then affects the Special Traffic that follows.

100% agree, and with particularly severe impacts when late LTP changes come through affecting STP changes which have often already been finalised.

Traditionally the main change was in May with further changes in September/October.

I believe it was changed to December to tie in with our then fellow EEC members, so no need now to stick to December which only affects Eurostar and International freight. the former can stick with December if they want, and freights can be tweaked at the same date if necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has never made sense to me - the classic UK approach of two changes a year, May and September, to me made more sense as summer traffic is quite different from winter traffic in many places.

It was done for integration with the rest of Europe, but other than Eurostar which does its own thing anyway we aren't so integrated, so like the idea of us converting our system to UIC gauge it just doesn't make any sense to do anything other than something suiting the UK best.

 

[Class 170101]

It has never made sense to me - the classic UK approach of two changes a year, May and September, to me made more sense as summer traffic is quite different from winter traffic in many places.

And still exists this way in the UK with Dated trains that run only between May and September some of which fit in with NR Rules of the Route. Indeed you might argue 'summer' holiday traffic should start in March / April. Indeed seaside resorts went crazy last year in April based on discussions here and elsewhere.

 

[30907]

It has never made sense to me - the classic UK approach of two changes a year, May and September, to me made more sense as summer traffic is quite different from winter traffic in many places.

It was done for integration with the rest of Europe, but other than Eurostar which does its own thing anyway we aren't so integrated, so like the idea of us converting our system to UIC gauge it just doesn't make any sense to do anything other than something suiting the UK best.

But Europe historically had the major change in late May and late September -
late May was always a bit problematic with most countries having moveable feasts (Ascension/Pentecost/Corpus Christi) and fixed ones (May Day, VE/Europe...) around then.

The Summer/Winter distinction is much less important now - only Tables 51/135 have separate summer services now...

 

[Ianno87]

But Europe historically had the major change in late May and late September -
late May was always a bit problematic with most countries having moveable feasts (Ascension/Pentecost/Corpus Christi) and fixed ones (May Day, VE/Europe...) around then.

The Summer/Winter distinction is much less important now - only Tables 51/135 have separate summer services now...

Where are the most significant Summer/Winter differences in the UK nowadays?

Summer weekend services to Newquay / Pembroke etc
Some differences on the West Highland line etc, e.g. Sundays

...are there *that* many any more?

 

[Class 170101]

Where are the most significant Summer/Winter differences in the UK nowadays?

Summer weekend services to Newquay / Pembroke etc
Some differences on the West Highland line etc, e.g. Sundays

...are there *that* many any more?

Greater Anglia Rural routes still have some and I think you will find EMR do as well.

 

[YorksLad12]

Thing is, we call the December date the "major" timetable date, but then the TPE and GTR changes in 2018 were in May. They weren't exactly tweaks.

I'd go with equally-weighted changes in May and October (before half-term, so you don't end up going away on a service that won't be running on your return), with anything else being treated as a special case (to line up with France/Belgium/Ireland, for example).

 

[Andyh82]

I’ve never understood having the main change in December. Who has time to be digesting new timetables in the run up to Christmas. It also effects people booking advance travel for Christmas where the timetable then may not be like the one now that people are used to.

Heading into Winter is also surely the worst time to bed in new timetables, with bad weather, dark nights, everyone being generally miserable come January with short tempers at the best of times, and nobody being on holiday meaning all the trains are busy.

And then it doesn’t make sense when there aren’t major changes as it doesn’t align with any seasonal flows (except I suppose the end of leaf fall timetables).

Spring makes much better sense, people can focus on the new timetable, it aligns with summer enhancements and if if goes wrong, its when trains are quieter when people start to take time off.

 

[PHILIPE]

I’ve never understood having the main change in December. Who has time to be digesting new timetables in the run up to Christmas. It also effects people booking advance travel for Christmas where the timetable then may not be like the one now that people are used to.

Heading into Winter is also surely the worst time to bed in new timetables, with bad weather, dark nights, everyone being generally miserable come January with short tempers at the best of times, and nobody being on holiday meaning all the trains are busy.

And then it doesn’t make sense when there aren’t major changes as it doesn’t align with any seasonal flows (except I suppose the end of leaf fall timetables).

Spring makes much better sense, people can focus on the new timetable, it aligns with summer enhancements and if if goes wrong, its when trains are quieter when people start to take time off.

As has been said earlier the December change was only made to standardise with Timetables across Europe. There is a Spring Timetable which starts in May, making 2 per year.

 

[infobleep]

In September one gets the leaf fall timetable. How would moving the timetable change to September, affect those timetables and their production?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In September one gets the leaf fall timetable. How would moving the timetable change to September, affect those timetables and their production?

Leaf-fall usually starts around October time from memory

 

[infobleep]

Leaf-fall usually starts around October time from memory

Now you mention it, you might be right. If so depending on when the timetable is switched released in September, it might still be a couple of weeks after its publication and the Christmas timetables are also not long after the December publication.

 

[whoosh]

The change in December is frankly ridiculous. It makes it hard for staff to plan for Christmas (sometimes not knowing what rest days they have around Christmas until the last week in November - that's if their roster is hung in time!), plus why introduce a new timetable for a couple of weeks at best, before dismantling and altering it for the Christmas holidays and associated (often major) engineering works?
It would be much better to make the change in January for everyone.

"But it's to fit in with Europe."

We're largely self contained.

"But Eurostar....!"

What about Eurostar?

"They run to mainland Europe."

Yes they do don't they? So how come their Amsterdam services started up in APRIL, which is neither December OR May? Absolute proof that it's a nonsense.

 

[Watershed]

Yes they do don't they? So how come their Amsterdam services started up in APRIL, which is neither December OR May? Absolute proof that it's a nonsense.

Was their Amsterdam service not just an extension of existing Brussels services?

If not, one imagine that as with ECTL and the May timetable, the paths were in the system as unadvertised services, converted to regular advertised services when a decision as to service start date was made.

But you make a good point - the paths for Eurostar are fairly set in stone, there is hardly any Chunnel freight and again it has fixed paths. So why is the entire network beholden to an artificial constraint?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The change in December is frankly ridiculous. It makes it hard for staff to plan for Christmas (sometimes not knowing what rest days they have around Christmas until the last week in November - that's if their roster is hung in time!),

So surely all moving the timetable change to September would do is instead of making it difficult to plan for the Christmas Holidays the same problems would now apply for the Summer Holidays instead.

Presumably if it’s about making it easy for staff to plan you’d want something like a November change?

 

[whoosh]

May is fine, it's December that's the pain in the neck. Just move that one to January, it's only three or four weeks away.

 

[Aictos]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, simple.

 

[Ianno87]

In September one gets the leaf fall timetable. How would moving the timetable change to September, affect those timetables and their production?

Then you'd still need a December-ish change for end of leaf fall.

The change in December is frankly ridiculous. It makes it hard for staff to plan for Christmas (sometimes not knowing what rest days they have around Christmas until the last week in November - that's if their roster is hung in time!), plus why introduce a new timetable for a couple of weeks at best, before dismantling and altering it for the Christmas holidays and associated (often major) engineering works?
It would be much better to make the change in January for everyone.

"But it's to fit in with Europe."

We're largely self contained.

"But Eurostar....!"

What about Eurostar?

"They run to mainland Europe."

Yes they do don't they? So how come their Amsterdam services started up in APRIL, which is neither December OR May? Absolute proof that it's a nonsense.

Was their Amsterdam service not just an extension of existing Brussels services?

If not, one imagine that as with ECTL and the May timetable, the paths were in the system as unadvertised services, converted to regular advertised services when a decision as to service start date was made.

But you make a good point - the paths for Eurostar are fairly set in stone, there is hardly any Chunnel freight and again it has fixed paths. So why is the entire network beholden to an artificial constraint?

It's possible that the Amsterdam path were provided in the timetable from the previous December, they just weren't actually used/advertised until April.

 

[YorksLad12]

As has been said earlier the December change was only made to standardise with Timetables across Europe. There is a Spring Timetable which starts in May, making 2 per year.

Yes; but why do the European networks have their "main" change in December? What was their thinking (and, indeed, what were they thinking)?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The May timetable change is now also considered a princiapal timetable change like the december one and no longer a subsidary change.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes; but why do the European networks have their "main" change in December? What was their thinking (and, indeed, what were they thinking)?

Might be an Urban myth, but ideally would be January except that clashes with Orthodox Christmas. So December is the compromise.

 

[Andyh82]

I certainly wouldn’t have a January change, that is probably even worse. All the promotions and communications before Christmas are focussed on the holiday period engineering works.

Saying “there are special timetables over Christmas, so check before you travel, oh and there is a new permanent timetable in January, so check that as well” will be too confusing and many people will be caught out as January 2/3/4/5 seems ages away when you finish for Christmas. Throw in the fare increase and all the negative press that attracts, and it’ll be a recipe for disaster.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I certainly wouldn’t have a January change, that is probably even worse. All the promotions and communications before Christmas are focussed on the holiday period engineering works.

Saying “there are special timetables over Christmas, so check before you travel, oh and there is a new permanent timetable in January, so check that as well” will be too confusing and many people will be caught out as January 2/3/4/5 seems ages away when you finish for Christmas. Throw in the fare increase and all the negative press that attracts, and it’ll be a recipe for disaster.

Indeed January is often engineering work heavy which needs a stable base to be able to amend in recent time.

We seem to have worked out September is no good as impacts the end of the summer holidays, neither is December or January so leaves us maybe with October to coincide with leaf-fall?

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed January is often engineering work heavy which needs a stable base to be able to amend in recent time.

We seem to have worked out September is no good as impacts the end of the summer holidays, neither is December or January so leaves us maybe with October to coincide with leaf-fall?

But then changing in October is only a few weeks into the academic year / term time.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But then changing in October is only a few weeks into the academic year / term time.

Which very much brings us round to there isn’t a good time to change the timetable!!