Suggestions for the traditional InterCity services post HS2

[A0]

A lot of ideas here. Main affected IC operators included.



HS2

• 2tph London to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 4tph Birmingham Interchange to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 1tph London to Shrewsbury calling at Birmingham Interchange, Sutton Coldfield, Walsall, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington and Shrewsbury.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at York, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at Birmingham Interchange, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh calling at East Midlands Hub, York, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 2tph London to Leeds and Sheffield calling at East Midlands Hub, with the Leeds branch then calling at Leeds HS only, and the Sheffield branch calling at Chesterfield and Sheffield (continues to Leeds HS non stop)
• 2tph Birmingham to Leeds calling at East Midlands Hub and Leeds HS.
• 1tph London to York calling at Birmingham Interchange, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Sheffield and York.
• 1tph London to Aberdeen calling at Birmingham Interchange, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Motherwell, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose and Aberdeen.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling At Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle, Lockerbie (1tp2h), Carstairs (1tp2h), Motherwell and Glasgow Central.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh and Glasgow calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle, with the Edinburgh branch then calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh, and the Glasgow branch then calling at Glasgow only.
• 2tph London to Manchester calling at Manchester Interchange and Manchester HS.
• 1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Chester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Chester branch calling at Chester only.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Manchester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Manchester branch calling at Wilmslow, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

NPR

• 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh calling at Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 2tph Birmingham to Newcastle calling at Crewe, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle HS.
• 2tph Liverpool to Hull calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, Selby, Brough and Hull
• 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.
• 1tph Liverpool to Nottingham calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton and Nottingham.

LNER

• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph London to Leeds calling at Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Nottingham, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tp2h London to Sunderland and Bradford calling at Doncaster, with the Sunderland branch then calling at York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Stockton, Hartlepool and Sunderland, and the Bradford branch then calling at Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford Interchange.
• 1tp2h London to Middlesbrough and Hull calling at Doncaster, with the Middlesbrough branch then calling at York, Northallerton and Middlesbrough, and the Hull branch then calling at Selby, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph London to York calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Doncaster and York.
• 1tp2h London to Nottingham calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Bingham, Aslockton and Nottingham.
• 1tp2h London to Cleethorpes calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

TPE

• 1tph Newcastle to Liverpool calling at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1tph Saltburn to Stockport calling at Redcar Central, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Eaglescliffe, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Garforth, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Stockport (for Man Airport) - continues to Bristol or further as XC.
• 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool calling at Seamer, Malton, York, Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Lea Green, Huyton and Liverpool Lime Street.

EMR

• 2tph London to Corby calling at Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Belper, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tph London to Matlock calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Duffield, Belper and Matlock.
• 1tph London to Nottingham calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham.
• 1tph London to Melton Mowbray calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester and Melton Mowbray.

AWC

• 1tph London to Manchester calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.
• 1tph London to Crewe calling at Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe.
• 1tp2h London to Edinburgh calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle, Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h London to Glasgow calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Caernarfon calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Caernarfon branch then calling at Bangor and Caernarfon.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Holyhead calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Holyhead branch then calling at Bangor and Holyhead.

XC

• 1tp2h Penzance to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at St Erth, Cambourne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Plymouth to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Paignton to TPE and Manchester calling at Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tp2h Taunton to TPE and Manchester calling at Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tph Bournemouth to Hull calling at Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, Goole, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph Reading to Nuneaton calling at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry and Nuneaton.

There's a reason current Manchester services don't serve Stafford: Colwich is faster.

Why extend and delay those journeys to run them via Stafford?

Stafford has connection to Manchester with XC from Birmingham.

I notice Caenarvon - is that confirmed as a reopening? Because it's been closed for over 50 years....


And good luck running a London - Matlock service. It was tried before by Midland Mainline and even then could only be worked with Turbostars. The Matlock branch has weight restrictions on it, so you can't send Meridians (or their successors) up their unless you spend ££££s upgrading the branch.

And what possible reason are you stopping LNER services at St Neots for? For a town of 30k it gets a more than adequate GN / TL service. And don't say 'for EWR connectivity' because that's a red herring. Coming from the north, people heading to Cambridge can do so by changing at Peterboro. Places like Grantham and Newark and beyond can already get to the MML and WCML from existing services.

 

[HST43257]

There's a reason current Manchester services don't serve Stafford: Colwich is faster.

Why extend and delay those journeys to run them via Stafford?

Stafford has connection to Manchester with XC from Birmingham.

Good point, send it straight via Colwich

I notice Caenarvon - is that confirmed as a reopening? Because it's been closed for over 50 years....

No, but I think it’d be worth it

And good luck running a London - Matlock service. It was tried before by Midland Mainline and even then could only be worked with Turbostars. The Matlock branch has weight restrictions on it, so you can't send Meridians (or their successors) up their unless you spend ££££s upgrading the branch.

Wondered if the 80Xs being fairly light so far could avoid this

And what possible reason are you stopping LNER services at St Neots for? For a town of 30k it gets a more than adequate GN / TL service. And don't say 'for EWR connectivity' because that's a red herring. Coming from the north, people heading to Cambridge can do so by changing at Peterboro. Places like Grantham and Newark and beyond can already get to the MML and WCML from existing services.

Anywhere from the west to Peterborough?

There should certainly be an EWR Interchange on the ECML

 

[The Planner]

A lot of ideas here. Main affected IC operators included.



HS2

• 2tph London to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 4tph Birmingham Interchange to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 1tph London to Shrewsbury calling at Birmingham Interchange, Sutton Coldfield, Walsall, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington and Shrewsbury.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at York, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at Birmingham Interchange, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh calling at East Midlands Hub, York, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 2tph London to Leeds and Sheffield calling at East Midlands Hub, with the Leeds branch then calling at Leeds HS only, and the Sheffield branch calling at Chesterfield and Sheffield (continues to Leeds HS non stop)
• 2tph Birmingham to Leeds calling at East Midlands Hub and Leeds HS.
• 1tph London to York calling at Birmingham Interchange, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Sheffield and York.
• 1tph London to Aberdeen calling at Birmingham Interchange, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Motherwell, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose and Aberdeen.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling At Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle, Lockerbie (1tp2h), Carstairs (1tp2h), Motherwell and Glasgow Central.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh and Glasgow calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle, with the Edinburgh branch then calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh, and the Glasgow branch then calling at Glasgow only.
• 2tph London to Manchester calling at Manchester Interchange and Manchester HS.
• 1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Chester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Chester branch calling at Chester only.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Manchester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Manchester branch calling at Wilmslow, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

Not sure what you are assuming here for HS2 infrastructure. You are certainly not going to be able have shuttles from Interchange to Curzon St, that is a massive waste of capacity. How are trains getting from HS2 to Sutton Coldfield, there is no link, nor a planned one. How are you also getting to Burton and Derby, again, no link there or planned. I would be stopping a Brum to the NE at Sheffield too. Huddersfield would be horrifically slow too.

NPR

• 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh calling at Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 2tph Birmingham to Newcastle calling at Crewe, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle HS.
• 2tph Liverpool to Hull calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, Selby, Brough and Hull
• 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.
• 1tph Liverpool to Nottingham calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton and Nottingham.

LNER

• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph London to Leeds calling at Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Nottingham, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tp2h London to Sunderland and Bradford calling at Doncaster, with the Sunderland branch then calling at York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Stockton, Hartlepool and Sunderland, and the Bradford branch then calling at Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford Interchange.
• 1tp2h London to Middlesbrough and Hull calling at Doncaster, with the Middlesbrough branch then calling at York, Northallerton and Middlesbrough, and the Hull branch then calling at Selby, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph London to York calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Doncaster and York.
• 1tp2h London to Nottingham calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Bingham, Aslockton and Nottingham.
• 1tp2h London to Cleethorpes calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

TPE

• 1tph Newcastle to Liverpool calling at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1tph Saltburn to Stockport calling at Redcar Central, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Eaglescliffe, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Garforth, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Stockport (for Man Airport) - continues to Bristol or further as XC.
• 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool calling at Seamer, Malton, York, Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Lea Green, Huyton and Liverpool Lime Street.

Why Newton le Willows and Earlestown? You suddenly wouldn't change TOCs at Stockport either. That would be a connection.

EMR

• 2tph London to Corby calling at Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Belper, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tph London to Matlock calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Duffield, Belper and Matlock.
• 1tph London to Nottingham calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham.
• 1tph London to Melton Mowbray calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester and Melton Mowbray.

Not sure about that Melton Mowbray one.

AWC

• 1tph London to Manchester calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.
• 1tph London to Crewe calling at Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe.
• 1tp2h London to Edinburgh calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle, Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h London to Glasgow calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Caernarfon calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Caernarfon branch then calling at Bangor and Caernarfon.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Holyhead calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Holyhead branch then calling at Bangor and Holyhead.

Again, why terminate at Crewe, send it to Chester or North Wales, even Manchester with a Wilmslow and Stockport stop. Why does Rugby only get a token 1tph, and only toward Brum?

XC

• 1tp2h Penzance to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at St Erth, Cambourne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Plymouth to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Paignton to TPE and Manchester calling at Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tp2h Taunton to TPE and Manchester calling at Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tph Bournemouth to Hull calling at Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, Goole, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph Reading to Nuneaton calling at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry and Nuneaton.

Reading to Nuneaton baffles me to be honest! Especially when it doesn't connect into anything at Nuneaton as none of your AWC stop there! Send that somewhere useful. Also surprised no one has jumped on Worcestershire Parkway after the previous "why don't XC stop there". Why have you got rid of the South Coast to Manchester services? Oxford, Banbury now only have 1tph useful XC services with your plan. You also have removed Birmingham International from the XC network, bonkers.

 

[A0]

Anywhere from the west to Peterborough?

There should certainly be an EWR Interchange on the ECML

Depends where you mean by "the west".

If you mean Reading then it'll be quicker by crossrail and a single change at Farringdon.

If you mean Bristol / Exeter, then already covered by Birmingham with a single change to Peterboro.

If you mean Oxford to Peterboro then that doesn't justify adding LNER stops to St Neots. The TL services are more than adequate for that final leg of the journey.

Leicester, Sheffield and Nottingham all have direct service to Peterboro.

There *does not* need to be a link to the "Intercity" services on the ECML or MML to EWR - it's a complete red herring and the only justification which keeps being peddled are random point to point journeys which aren't sensible or viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2021 ==

Not sure what you are assuming here for HS2 infrastructure. You are certainly not going to be able have shuttles from Interchange to Curzon St, that is a massive waste of capacity. How are trains getting from HS2 to Sutton Coldfield, there is no link, nor a planned one. How are you also getting to Burton and Derby, again, no link there or planned. I would be stopping a Brum to the NE at Sheffield too. Huddersfield would be horrifically slow too.


Why Newton le Willows and Earlestown? You suddenly wouldn't change TOCs at Stockport either. That would be a connection.


Not sure about that Melton Mowbray one.


Again, why terminate at Crewe, send it to Chester or North Wales, even Manchester with a Wilmslow and Stockport stop. Why does Rugby only get a token 1tph, and only toward Brum?

Reading to Nuneaton baffles me to be honest! Especially when it doesn't connect into anything at Nuneaton as none of your AWC stop there! Send that somewhere useful. Also surprised no one has jumped on Worcestershire Parkway after the previous "why don't XC stop there". Why have you got rid of the South Coast to Manchester services? Oxford, Banbury now only have 1tph useful XC services with your plan. You also have removed Birmingham International from the XC network, bonkers.

It's a solution looking for a problem, particularly as it avoids the genuine traffic destinations of Birmingham Int'l for the airport and New St for central Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2021 ==

Wondered if the 80Xs being fairly light so far could avoid this

You've got to be joking.

A 170 (3 car) weighs about 140 t.

A 220 (so similar for a 222) weighs about 205 t.

A 5 car 802 weighs 252 t.

The only way you'd make an 8xx suitable to send to Matlock would be as a 2/3 car unit.

 

[HST43257]

Depends where you mean by "the west".

If you mean Reading then it'll be quicker by crossrail and a single change at Farringdon.

If you mean Bristol / Exeter, then already covered by Birmingham with a single change to Peterboro.

If you mean Oxford to Peterboro then that doesn't justify adding LNER stops to St Neots. The TL services are more than adequate for that final leg of the journey.

Leicester, Sheffield and Nottingham all have direct service to Peterboro.

There *does not* need to be a link to the "Intercity" services on the ECML or MML to EWR - it's a complete red herring and the only justification which keeps being peddled are random point to point journeys which aren't sensible or viable.

Bedford, Milton Keynes, Oxford?

 

[A0]

Bedford, Milton Keynes, Oxford?

If they are going to Peterboro then changing to TL at St Neots is hardly an issue.

If they are going north on the ECML, Grantham, Newark and Retford are minor places, the 'big' places are Doncaster, York, Leeds or Newcastle / Edinburgh.

MK can already get to most of those with a single change to XC at Tamworth.

Same goes for Oxford except the change is Birmingham.

Bedford really isn't significant. The overwhelming demand for travel from Bedford is to London. EWR will add some for Cambridge and Oxford. It *will not* create demand to go from Bedford to Grantham or some other random flow you might dream up.

 

[HST43257]

Not sure what you are assuming here for HS2 infrastructure. You are certainly not going to be able have shuttles from Interchange to Curzon St, that is a massive waste of capacity. How are trains getting from HS2 to Sutton Coldfield, there is no link, nor a planned one. How are you also getting to Burton and Derby, again, no link there or planned. I would be stopping a Brum to the NE at Sheffield too. Huddersfield would be horrifically slow too.

The Sutton Park line goes so close to HS2, I can’t see why not to have a connection. Multiple ways to get to Burton and Derby as well - another one which would have some London traffic (I’d guess).

You suddenly wouldn't change TOCs at Stockport either. That would be a connection.

Looking for some better connectivity, but it felt wrong to have TPE to Paignton - perhaps all non-NPR TPE could become XC?

Not sure about that Melton Mowbray one.

I felt 2 to Sheffield and Nottingham was too much, so giving more frequent connections for Melton Mowbray seems like something that could potentially work.

Again, why terminate at Crewe, send it to Chester or North Wales, even Manchester with a Wilmslow and Stockport stop. Why does Rugby only get a token 1tph, and only toward Brum?

North Wales gets the service calling at MKC only after Crewe, no need for a second. Chester would get a second tph through HS2. Rugby has the 1tph express to London, with 2tph LNW on the Trent Valley. I don’t agree with everything stopping at all of WFJ, MKC and RUG, and Coventry still needs a fast service or 2 every hour. Calling at all 3 of those on B’ham services IS NOT fast.

Reading to Nuneaton baffles me to be honest! Especially when it doesn't connect into anything at Nuneaton as none of your AWC stop there! Send that somewhere useful. Also surprised no one has jumped on Worcestershire Parkway after the previous "why don't XC stop there". Why have you got rid of the South Coast to Manchester services? Oxford, Banbury now only have 1tph useful XC services with your plan. You also have removed Birmingham International from the XC network, bonkers.

Wasn’t sure where to send it as I didn’t want 2tph XC through to Stoke and Manchester. I reckoned Nuneaton could have an impact as a shortcut for journeys from Oxford to Leicester, as an example. I see your point about International, do if you can think of a destination then sure

 

[The Planner]

The Sutton Park line goes so close to HS2, I can’t see why not to have a connection. Multiple ways to get to Burton and Derby as well - another one which would have some London traffic (I’d guess).


Looking for some better connectivity, but it felt wrong to have TPE to Paignton - perhaps all non-NPR TPE could become XC?


I felt 2 to Sheffield and Nottingham was too much, so giving more frequent connections for Melton Mowbray seems like something that could potentially work.


North Wales gets the service calling at MKC only after Crewe, no need for a second. Chester would get a second tph through HS2. Rugby has the 1tph express to London, with 2tph LNW on the Trent Valley. I don’t agree with everything stopping at all of WFJ, MKC and RUG, and Coventry still needs a fast service or 2 every hour. Calling at all 3 of those on B’ham services IS NOT fast.


Wasn’t sure where to send it as I didn’t want 2tph XC through to Stoke and Manchester. I reckoned Nuneaton could have an impact as a shortcut for journeys from Oxford to Leicester, as an example. I see your point about International, do if you can think of a destination then sure

A connection would only point one way and the one proposed wouldn't have allowed a connection to the Sutton Park as it was further towards Birmingham. You couldn't put one in now either due to the tunnels being extended. No connection on the Eastern leg has ever been proposed or designed.
Unless we wire to Chester then HS2 won't be going there, and with Avanti getting bi-modes shortly it makes more sense to extend the Crewe terminator that way.
Disagree with Rugby, lots of house development planned there. It will end up with more stops, Watford would probably lose one.
In terms of XC, the Bournemouth to Manchester should stay via International, Reading goes somewhere towards the NE via International too, even if its Nottingham. Leicester to Oxford can be done with a change at Cov if the Nuneaton dive under ever happens.

 

[HST43257]

Unless we wire to Chester then HS2 won't be going there, and with Avanti getting bi-modes shortly it makes more sense to extend the Crewe terminator that way.

Chester needs better, faster connections. Wiring and HS2 should help this.

Disagree with Rugby, lots of house development planned there. It will end up with more stops, Watford would probably lose one.

With 1tph nonstop into London (AWC) and 2 only calling at MKC (LNWR), the London flow is fine. Birmingham gets all 3 of these services as well, with various numbers of calls on the way. I can’t imagine there’s a huge Rugby -> North via Trent Valley flow. But anything there is can be done via the 2tph stopper (I’d extend the planned Lichfield terminator).

In terms of XC, the Bournemouth to Manchester should stay via International, Reading goes somewhere towards the NE via International too, even if its Nottingham. Leicester to Oxford can be done with a change at Cov if the Nuneaton dive under ever happens.

This is a better idea. Thanks

 

[Purple Orange]

That's a fair point, but is the opposite of what the other post was suggesting - which was no classic IC services at all!

I think it depends on what is considered to be Intercity. Today all Avanti services to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool & North Wales principally make 3 intermediate stops before reaching their destination. What is being proposed is something like a service consisting of Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Piccadilly which immediately means a journey that was just over 2 hours instantly becomes longer and is more akin to the XC and TPE model of Intercity. Perhaps that is not a bad situation. Yet by virtue of more stops, and stock that won’t tilt, 125 mph capable rolling stock may not be needed. Therefore why not have trains with doors at thirds, in 2+2, with a trolley service, at least 8-cars long?

Perhaps a service dedicated to both long distance WCML services as far north as Manchester & Liverpool along the lines of the following might work:

London Focussed:

• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
• 2 x Euston, Watford, MK, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street.
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, North Wales
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe.

Furthermore an adaptation of Cross Country...

Birmingham Focussed (North & South journeys to be paired for through services):

• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Penkridge, Stafford, Crewe, Winford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, Hull
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds.
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Nuneaton, Leicester, Nottingham.
• 1 x South Wales, Cardiff, Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Worcester, Birmingham New Street
• 2 x South West, Bristol, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham, Birmingham New Street
• 2 x Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton, Bournemouth.

All other available paths dedicated to commuter services between these points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would definitely not run North Wales via Northampton. That one needs to stay much closer to the current journey time, as it's the only Avanti West Coast service that won't be mirrored on HS2 (so it is still a primary London service, not primarily serving WFJ-MKC-RUG like the others) and running via Northampton adds about 20 minutes.

Other than that your proposal looks decent.

To be fair I don't care that much about door positions, I'd be happy with something looking like a 350/1 or 730 other than that First Class should be 2+1.

 

[HST43257]

I think it depends on what is considered to be Intercity. Today all Avanti services to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool & North Wales principally make 3 intermediate stops before reaching their destination. What is being proposed is something like a service consisting of Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Piccadilly which immediately means a journey that was just over 2 hours instantly becomes longer and is more akin to the XC and TPE model of Intercity. Perhaps that is not a bad situation. Yet by virtue of more stops, and stock that won’t tilt, 125 mph capable rolling stock may not be needed. Therefore why not have trains with doors at thirds, in 2+2, with a trolley service, at least 8-cars long?

Perhaps a service dedicated to both long distance WCML services as far north as Manchester & Liverpool along the lines of the following might work:

London Focussed:

• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
• 2 x Euston, Watford, MK, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street.
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, North Wales
• 1 x Euston, Watford, MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe.

Birmingham Focussed (North & South journeys to be paired for through services):

• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Penkridge, Stafford, Crewe, Winford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, Hull
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds.
• 1 x Birmingham New Street, Nuneaton, Leicester, Nottingham.
• 1 x South Wales, Cardiff, Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Worcester, Birmingham New Street
• 2 x South West, Bristol, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham, Birmingham New Street
• 2 x Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton, Bournemouth.

All other available paths dedicated to commuter services between these points.

Not everything must stop at Watford and Rugby

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not everything must stop at Watford and Rugby

My opinion is that it should other than possibly the North Wales, but the official proposals I've seen suggest that half the residual IC service* would stop at WFJ and half at RUG but nothing at both, whereas all would stop at MKC.

* I think that proposal was two Brum, one Manc and one North Wales.

 

[HST43257]

You need 2tph Avanti to Birmingham, 1 calling at WFJ & MKC, and the other calling at RUG.

On top of that, you need 1tph to North Wales, calling only at MKC. The only other service needed that I can think of is the one connecting MKC to Stoke & MAN. MKC to Stoke should probably be nonstop, but since the Stoke to London journey is done on HS2, a stop at WFJ is ok.

As well as the Avanti stuff, there'll be 2tph calling at MKC and RUG, which then go most or all stops on the Trent Valley. Rugby needs no more than that and an Avanti via Bham for north connections. I don't see Northampton as being possible for Avanti.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not everything must stop at Watford and Rugby

I do not see why not, it gives all main stops a link to all main points on the WCML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2021 ==

You need 2tph Avanti to Birmingham, 1 calling at WFJ & MKC, and the other calling at RUG.

On top of that, you need 1tph to North Wales, calling only at MKC. The only other service needed that I can think of is the one connecting MKC to Stoke & MAN. MKC to Stoke should probably be nonstop, but since the Stoke to London journey is done on HS2, a stop at WFJ is ok.

As well as the Avanti stuff, there'll be 2tph calling at MKC and RUG, which then go most or all stops on the Trent Valley. Rugby needs no more than that and an Avanti via Bham for north connections. I don't see Northampton as being possible for Avanti.

Why? That is a big duplication of paths and it’s rather inefficient. The market on this route will be mostly taken to HS2, therefore why not 1 tph that covers the demand that will be using the route?

 

[HST43257]

I do not see why not, it gives all main stops a link to all main points on the WCML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2021 ==


Why? That is a big duplication of paths and it’s rather inefficient. The market on this route will be mostly taken to HS2, therefore why not 1 tph that covers the demand that will be using the route?

Different services have different needs. North Wales and Coventry still need fast London services (not 2 extra stops). Rugby should keep an express. WFJ should get an upgrade as well where express south of MKC isn't important.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Different services have different needs. North Wales and Coventry still need fast London services (not 2 extra stops). Rugby should keep an express. WFJ should get an upgrade as well where express south of MKC isn't important.

Unless, due to poor fares policy, people end up priced onto these services from HS2 (in which case they can put up with a slower service in return), most of the traffic will be to/from MKC and the Trent Valley local stations (for whom it will be faster than the present service even with a WFJ stop), so indeed, a WFJ stop is fairly inconsequential and would improve connectivity.

The one exception is North Wales where it will remain the main service from London.

 

[Purple Orange]

Different services have different needs. North Wales and Coventry still need fast London services (not 2 extra stops). Rugby should keep an express. WFJ should get an upgrade as well where express south of MKC isn't important.

2 additional stops is nothing at all. Plus the catchment area in Cov will also have access to Birmingham Interchange and I’d expect a large number of people to migrate to HS2.

 

[HST43257]

The one exception is North Wales where it will remain the main service from London.

Coventry needs a single stop fast as well. Rugby nonstop makes most sense there.

Then, you have 2tph Avanti calling at WFJ and MKC, and 2tph TV stoppers calling at MKC and RUG.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coventry needs a single stop fast as well. Rugby nonstop makes most sense there.

I'd say MKC. People are more likely to want to go to MK than Rugby because of the relative amount of business in those locations.

I know I would say that, but as a key part of HS2 is allowing MKC and the south WCML to be served better, I would say all residual IC services should stop at MKC, and all the official proposals I've seen so far have agreed.

 

[A0]

Unless, due to poor fares policy, people end up priced onto these services from HS2 (in which case they can put up with a slower service in return), most of the traffic will be to/from MKC and the Trent Valley local stations (for whom it will be faster than the present service even with a WFJ stop), so indeed, a WFJ stop is fairly inconsequential and would improve connectivity.

The one exception is North Wales where it will remain the main service from London.

This persistent fixation with Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield is wrong. Their main traffic flow isn't to/from London - it is to Birmingham / West Mids.

Adding those 3 stops adds at least 15 mins to any journey on the WCML. Even post HS 2 there are places on the WCML which *won't* benefit from HS2 - Milton Keynes, Northampton, Stoke on Trent - all of these *are* large places and shouldn't see degraded journey times just because of the fetish some have about stopping at every 2 horse town or providing obscure connections which are unnecessary.

 

[HST43257]

2 additional stops is nothing at all. Plus the catchment area in Cov will also have access to Birmingham Interchange and I’d expect a large number of people to migrate to HS2.

2 stops is an extra 10-15 mins. Migration to HS2 won't be extremely popular imo. Would've thought the journey time would be similar plus probably the extra step of a drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This persistent fixation with Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield is wrong. Their main traffic flow isn't to/from London - it is to Birmingham / West Mids.

Adding those 3 stops adds at least 15 mins to any journey on the WCML. Even post HS 2 there are places on the WCML which *won't* benefit from HS2 - Milton Keynes, Northampton, Stoke on Trent - all of these *are* large places and shouldn't see degraded journey times just because of the fetish some have about stopping at every 2 horse town or providing obscure connections which are unnecessary.

Stoke will benefit directly from HS2, it's getting the Macc terminator. It therefore won't have degraded journey times whatever you do with the classic line service.

Stockport and Cov are the only two big losers. Much of Stockport's business isn't local people, it's it being used as a south Manchester P&R, and that traffic will shift to the Airport station instead (more convenient for many as it's just off the M60) so you're not left with many losers, and they can change at Crewe if they want, or go into Manchester and join HS2 there. Cov is the one that really loses out as HS2 doesn't serve it at all in any form (and it isn't used as a Parkway in quite the same way as that traffic would use International and it's big multi storey).

 

[HST43257]

I'd say MKC. People are more likely to want to go to MK than Rugby because of the relative amount of business in those locations.

MKC would get a nonstop COV service in my idea, but it would also call at WFJ. Pathing makes it easier to make RUG the fast, plus they should keep an express to London. 3 calls can't work, but you can still serve the other 3 well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MKC would get a nonstop COV service in my idea, but it would also call at WFJ. Pathing makes it easier to make RUG the fast, plus they should keep an express to London.

Why should Rugby keep a non-stop to Euston? It's a small, mainly industrial town with a rather empty hinterland - not much different to "Market Ketteringborough". One or two stops is fine.

Pathing is a completely clean sheet post HS2, so what the existing paths do is not relevant.

 

[HST43257]

Why should Rugby keep a non-stop to Euston? It's a small, mainly industrial town with a rather empty hinterland - not much different to "Market Ketteringborough". One or two stops is fine.

Extra housing development has already been mentioned. They won't like a service slowed by 10 mins as well. And as I say, it's easier to path the RUG nonstop

 

[Bletchleyite]

MKC would get a nonstop COV service in my idea, but it would also call at WFJ. Pathing makes it easier to make RUG the fast, plus they should keep an express to London. 3 calls can't work, but you can still serve the other 3 well.

No, I'm saying ALL services should stop at MKC.

 

[A0]

Stoke will benefit directly from HS2, it's getting the Macc terminator. It therefore won't have degraded journey times whatever you do with the classic line service.

Stockport and Cov are the only two big losers. Much of Stockport's business isn't local people, it's it being used as a south Manchester P&R, and that traffic will shift to the Airport station instead (more convenient for many as it's just off the M60) so you're not left with many losers, and they can change at Crewe if they want, or go into Manchester and join HS2 there. Cov is the one that really loses out as HS2 doesn't serve it at all in any form (and it isn't used as a Parkway in quite the same way as that traffic would use International and it's big multi storey).

Well Stoke only benefits with services using the legacy network and joining HS2 further down. So the capacity issues through Stoke to Manchester still exist. And you're looking at Stoke to either Manchester or London. As I pointed out Stoke - MK would be massively slowed by stops along tge TV - and Stoke - MK *is* a viable commute, more than Stoke - London.

Milton Keynes and Northampton *don't* benefit from HS2 (both over 220k) - so more than double the size of any of the places along the TV line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Extra housing development has already been mentioned.

I'm sure it has, but it's still a small town.

They won't like a service slowed by 10 mins as well.

They presently have one IC service an hour, don't they? Two would be an upgrade, even a bit slower, plus potentially two rather than one Trent Valley "LNR" and a Manchester as well?

And as I say, it's easier to path the RUG nonstop

And as I said, post HS2 is a completely clean sheet so nothing is easier to path than anything else. Indeed, a slower service may be easier to path alongside more "LNR" services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2021 ==

Well Stoke only benefits with services using the legacy network and joining HS2 further down.

Yes, but it will still be faster than a classic line London service.

So the capacity issues through Stoke to Manchester still exist.

And those would be best served by an increased 6x24m local EMU service, not London trains.

Milton Keynes and Northampton *don't* benefit from HS2 (both over 220k) - so more than double the size of any of the places along the TV line.

Indeed, improving service to MKC (which will increasingly be a destination in its own right as well as an origin) is a key purpose of HS2 phase 1. Yes, part of that is the MKC-London service, which is slated for a massive upgrade, but also MKC to/from the North West.

 

[HST43257]

I'm sure it has, but it's still a small town.
They presently have one IC service an hour, don't they? Two would be an upgrade, even a bit slower, plus potentially two rather than one Trent Valley "LNR" and a Manchester as well?

I'm suggesting 1 nonstop Avanti an hour and also 2 TV stoppers.

And as I said, post HS2 is a completely clean sheet so nothing is easier to path than anything else. Indeed, a slower service may be easier to path alongside more "LNR" services.

A rugby at xx00, then a WFJ then MKC at xx03 and then a MKC at xx30 and a WFJ then MKC at xx33. Easier to path than giving the RUG an extra stop. Of course not necessarily 00,03,30,33 - but that format at some point in the hour.