Avanti West Coast Class 221 to CrossCountry

[The Planner]

No, that’s not the point. I’m saying it would be a useful point to revise the timetable in order to get the most out of the fleet for the good of the passenger. At present, the 4-car services are simply not good enough from a passenger perspective.

I am confused then. No one is going to immediately touch the timetable if XC get the 221s, it would be a while afterwards unless that is what you are suggesting.

 

[Purple Orange]

I am confused then. No one is going to immediately touch the timetable if XC get the 221s, it would be a while afterwards unless that is what you are suggesting.

A couple of years from now would be my thought.

 

[The Planner]

A couple of years from now would be my thought.

Would be more than that. A recast of the WCML is a nigh on certainty due to 800s coming in, so Dec 22/May 23. You wouldn't touch XC until after that happens.

 

[Purple Orange]

Would be more than that. A recast of the WCML is a nigh on certainty due to 800s coming in, so Dec 22/May 23. You wouldn't touch XC until after that happens.

You realise a couple of years from now is 2023?

 

[The Planner]

You realise a couple of years from now is 2023?

Yes, so you wouldn't start tinkering with XC before then.

 

[Leo555]

If you take the 3 centre coaches at 68 68 and 68 (xc configuration not all tables) seats from Avanti you get an average 68 seats per coach.
But if you include the end coaches (assuming standard at the same configuration on both ends academically) you get an average 57.6 seats per coach but you also have an increase in staff costs to go with it.

Maybe the benefit doesn't outweigh the loss of the end coaches to the degree I thought it would but the fuel economy will be better per seat without the end coaches and may get past the Dft to insert extra coaches to existing sets over doubling up sets?

 

[greatvoyager]

If you take the 3 centre coaches at 68 68 and 68 (xc configuration not all tables) seats from Avanti you get an average 68 seats per coach.
But if you include the end coaches (assuming standard at the same configuration on both ends academically) you get an average 57.6 seats per coach but you also have an increase in staff costs to go with it.

Maybe the benefit doesn't outweigh the loss of the end coaches to the degree I thought it would but the fuel economy will be better per seat without the end coaches and may get past the Dft to insert extra coaches to existing sets over doubling up sets?

Is it going to that easy though? For example, when the 8-car 222s became 7-car in 2008, not only did they lose a carriage, some of the first carriages were swapped between different units. I wonder if changing the configuration of 220/221s will have the same problem.

 

[James Kevill]

I was reading the Rail Magazine Issue 926 and I looked on letters page on pages 39 and 40. And it says here: A Fleet and Route swap - The Introduction of the new bi-mode fleets at East Midlands Railway and Avanti West Coast gives a perfect opportunity for a wider DfT-initiated fleet rationalisation and route adjustment strategy. If the Avanti West Coast Class 221 Super Voyagers and East Midlands Railway Class 222 Meridian fleets were transferred to CrossCountry, that company could become a Bombardier fleet operator throughout. It does make sense if CrossCountry would have all of the Bombardier Voyager Family Fleets, then they can withdraw the HST sets.

 

[takno]

I was reading the Rail Magazine Issue 926 and I looked on letters page on pages 39 and 40. And it says here: A Fleet and Route swap - The Introduction of the new bi-mode fleets at East Midlands Railway and Avanti West Coast gives a perfect opportunity for a wider DfT-initiated fleet rationalisation and route adjustment strategy. If the Avanti West Coast Class 221 Super Voyagers and East Midlands Railway Class 222 Meridian fleets were transferred to CrossCountry, that company could become a Bombardier fleet operator throughout. It does make sense if CrossCountry would have all of the Bombardier Voyager Family Fleets, then they can withdraw the HST sets.

Was the letter written by anybody with any demonstrable insight, knowledge or influence? To me it just sounds like forum wobble from a rather less respectable forum than this one

 

[JonathanH]

It does make sense if CrossCountry would have all of the Bombardier Voyager Family Fleets, then they can withdraw the HST sets.

It still has to pay its way no matter how neat the idea of consolidating the fleets at CrossCountry may seem. For example, they could just take five 221s to replace the HSTs and be done with it, leaving the other units off lease.

A letter to a magazine is no different to expressing an opinion here. It just doesn't get an immediate reply.

 

[irish_rail]

It still has to pay its way no matter how neat the idea of consolidating the fleets at CrossCountry may seem. For example, they could just take five 221s to replace the HSTs and be done with it, leaving the other units off lease.

A letter to a magazine is no different to expressing an opinion here. It just doesn't get an immediate reply.

5 x 221s doesn't come close to replacing the capacity of 5 x 2+7 HSTs.
And Rail has really really come down in the world the past few years, seems now to be full of nothing but pro HS2 propaganda and details of which bigwig has been appointed to the latest managing director role at XX rail. Very little of interest anymore. More interested in the opinions of irrelevant steering groups than what is actually happening on our railway. Shame, as it used to be a decent magazine.

 

[43096]

And Rail has really really come down in the world the past few years, seems now to be full of nothing but pro HS2 propaganda and details of which bigwig has been appointed to the latest managing director role at XX rail. Very little of interest anymore. More interested in the opinions of irrelevant steering groups than what is actually happening on our railway. Shame, as it used to be a decent magazine.

It's been rubbish for getting on for 20 years. It so badly wants to be a competitor to Modern Railways, yet somehow can't let go of its past. Add in an editorial team more interested in sending tweets out than addressing the chronic shortcomings of what they do for a living and you have the ingredients: **** journalism, **** insights, **** magazine. Even the paper quality is ****.

 

[irish_rail]

It's been rubbish for getting on for 20 years. It so badly wants to be a competitor to Modern Railways, yet somehow can't let go of its past. Add in an editorial team more interested in sending tweets out than addressing the chronic shortcomings of what they do for a living and you have the ingredients: **** journalism, **** insights, **** magazine. Even the paper quality is ****.

It isn't even stapled together properly, the middle pages always fall out. I bought my last issue today. When I read a railway magazine I want to see excellent photography of the subject, yet Rail is full of pictures of people. Not what I want to see in a railway magazine. Sad to say it after buying every issue for 20 years but the current one will be the last as I'm sick of regretting my purchase.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

5 x 221s doesn't come close to replacing the capacity of 5 x 2+7 HSTs.

No but taking only only 10 x 221 instead of the whole fleet would do the trick. That way you can replace 4 car 220/221 workings with 5 car 221s and the HSTs can be replaced by 8 car voyagers

 

[David Goddard]

Replacing an XC HST with 2x220 is still a reduction of 31 std and 17 first class seats though. Would need to be one of each type to make any increase

 

[37424]

If your going to take the Avanti 221 you would hope that they would take all of them to allow a significant increase in capacity as well as replacing the HST's whether you replace a HST's with a pair of 4 cars or a 5+4 is a minor detail really.

However taking the 222's as well as some suggest strikes me as overkill unless your going to replace some of the 170's working as well and they are probably not that suited to the Stansted working, I guess the Nottingham-Cardiff might be more of a possibility. But then you have to wonder where alternatively the 222's might go and I don't see a lot of possibilities and maybe in that situation you might start to discard driving trailers of both types to create longer 220/1 and 222's and get rid of the prospect of a lot of paired workings.

 

[greatvoyager]

If your going to take the Avanti 221 you would hope that they would take all of them to allow a significant increase in capacity as well as replacing the HST's whether you replace a HST's with a pair of 4 cars or a 5+4 is a minor detail really.

Yep, they might as well make use of any extra capacity.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yep, they might as well make use of any extra capacity.

Provided in a post Covid-19 world it is needed.

 

[DB]

Is it going to that easy though? For example, when the 8-car 222s became 7-car in 2008, not only did they lose a carriage, some of the first carriages were swapped between different units. I wonder if changing the configuration of 220/221s will have the same problem.

They did some fiddling around creating composite coaches as well, and did a real bodged-looking job of it. When EMT had them refurbished about 10 years ago they tidied this up and made it look better.

 

[greatvoyager]

Provided in a post Covid-19 world it is needed.

True, we'll have to wait and see.

They did some fiddling around creating composite coaches as well, and did a real bodged-looking job of it. When EMT had them refurbished about 10 years ago they tidied this up and made it look better.

I noticed that too, did look better when refurbished.

 

[HST43257]

If your going to take the Avanti 221 you would hope that they would take all of them to allow a significant increase in capacity as well as replacing the HST's whether you replace a HST's with a pair of 4 cars or a 5+4 is a minor detail really.

However taking the 222's as well as some suggest strikes me as overkill unless your going to replace some of the 170's working as well and they are probably not that suited to the Stansted working, I guess the Nottingham-Cardiff might be more of a possibility. But then you have to wonder where alternatively the 222's might go and I don't see a lot of possibilities and maybe in that situation you might start to discard driving trailers of both types to create longer 220/1 and 222's and get rid of the prospect of a lot of paired workings.

If you took the 222s as well I’d say put 4 car voyagers/meridians on as many 170 services as possible. Predominantly Cardiff to Nottingham and Birmingham to Stansted.

Make all (current) voyager workings 5, 7, 8, 9 or 10 car working.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If you took the 222s as well I’d say put 4 car voyagers/meridians on as many 170 services as possible. Predominantly Cardiff to Nottingham and Birmingham to Stansted.

Why? You’d be reducing seat numbers after XC has gone to great lengths to increase many 170s from 2 to 3 cars.

That would be a backwards step

 

[37424]

If you took the 222s as well I’d say put 4 car voyagers/meridians on as many 170 services as possible. Predominantly Cardiff to Nottingham and Birmingham to Stansted.

Make all (current) voyager workings 5, 7, 8, 9 or 10 car working.

Except the Stanstead doesn't really need a high powered DMU's and doesn't really offer any seating capacity improvement over a 3 car 170.

I would possibly move the Stanstead route to EMR along with the 170's, or even Anglia perhaps with an additional order of flirts which would probably be more suited to the route than class 22x.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If the Avanti 221's came to CrossCountry, one thing you could do (if Voyagers could be cleared for the entire Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route) is have 7 x 4-coach Voyagers on the 2-car 170 routes then those 2-car 170's could couple onto 3-car trains on some Leicester, Stansted, Cardiff and Nottingham routes where platform lengths permit. Therefore, 3-coach 170's would be the minimum.

Then you could have 7 x 5-coach Voyagers on the longer-distance routes where you'd take off the 4-car ones.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If the Avanti 221's came to CrossCountry, one thing you could do (if Voyagers could be cleared for the entire Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route) is have 7 x 4-coach Voyagers on the 2-car 170 routes then those 2-car 170's could couple onto 3-car trains on some Leicester, Stansted, Cardiff and Nottingham routes where platform lengths permit. Therefore, 3-coach 170's would be the minimum.

Then you could have 7 x 5-coach Voyagers on the longer-distance routes where you'd take off the 4-car ones.

Yes but the latest Cross Country Franchise award specifically funded the introduction of 3 car 170s onto Birmingham to Stansted services to increase seat numbers.

Replacing the 3 car 170s with 4 car Voyagers on the Stansted services would reduce seat numbers once again. 5 car trains don’t fit in the diesel bay at Stansted so wouldn’t be any use for that route.

 

[92002]

This. It is not that long until Avanti get hold of their IET fleet and by the time the country is back to normal, both Avanti and EMR may no longer require their Voyagers & Meridians. I’d hand them all over to XC.

In order to get a service of minimum 8-car trains, by adding the all Avanti & EMR 221s and 222s, this would allow XC could run:

• 10 x 8 car Meridians
• 7 x 9 car Meridians
• 38 x 9-car Voyagers
• 1 x 10 car Voyager

Would think with the XC contract coming up for renewal that the opportunity will be taken to replace the fleet with Bi Mode trains.

The Voyagers could be used by EMR to replace 170s for other services elsewhere.

Similarly the XC Voyagers could be cascaded to other services. In the longer term replacing the early 150s and 156s.
At one time ScotRail were interested in the tilting Voyagers to replace 158s and 170s. Cascading 158s and 156s to go elsewhere. With some 170s replacing the longer distance 156 services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would think with the XC contract coming up for renewal that the opportunity will be taken to replace the fleet with Bi Mode trains.

The Voyagers could be used by EMR to replace 170s for other services elsewhere.

Similarly the XC Voyagers could be cascaded to other services. In the longer term replacing the early 150s and 156s.
At one time ScotRail were interested in the tilting Voyagers to replace 158s and 170s. Cascading 158s and 156s to go elsewhere. With some 170s replacing the longer distance 156 services.

No one has ever come up with any evidence the XC fleet would be replaced in a new contract, no matter how often it’s suggested. Give it another 10-15 years maybe.

 

[DB]

Would think with the XC contract coming up for renewal that the opportunity will be taken to replace the fleet with Bi Mode trains.

The Voyagers could be used by EMR to replace 170s for other services elsewhere.

Similarly the XC Voyagers could be cascaded to other services. In the longer term replacing the early 150s and 156s.
At one time ScotRail were interested in the tilting Voyagers to replace 158s and 170s. Cascading 158s and 156s to go elsewhere. With some 170s replacing the longer distance 156 services.

Money is likely to be in short supply for new trains over the next few years.

Voyagers would be completely useless to replace 150s and 156s. They are high speed, low density diesel-guzzling units and not suited for local stopping services. Hard to think of any long distance routes which would want them now.

 

[Energy]

No one has ever come up with any evidence the XC fleet would be replaced in a new contract, no matter how often it’s suggested. Give it another 10-15 years maybe.

Previously it was possible given cheap rolling stock and XCs bad overcrowding but right now money is tight and passenger numbers are down, with the 222s and 221s coming available as well I doubt we will see XC fleet replacement soon.

 

[Purple Orange]

Previously it was possible given cheap rolling stock and XCs bad overcrowding but right now money is tight and passenger numbers are down, with the 222s and 221s coming available as well I doubt we will see XC fleet replacement soon.

They just need a refurb and then see them through until HS2 takes over the core markets, before procuring Bi-modes to fill the gap in the market not serviced by HS2.