Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Suggestions and speculation

[Hey 3]

Manchester is already great. What are you on about?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2020 ==



Could it be realistic to see a link to the existing WCML in to Lime Street from the Runcorn area?

They could link it in through the existing freight line via Ditton Junction

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2021 ==

Let's say it's 25 minutes to Leeds and then another 30 to Manchester, so 55 minutes assuming it's a direct service. Surely a Hope Valley upgrade can deliver better than that? Isn't that the current Manchester-Sheffield journey time?

From another thread, one of my posts
I personally wouldn't because Network Rail did a study called the Northern Way and conclude that a 40 minute journey time isn't achieveable via Woodhead and is acheviable via Hope Valley and upgrading that line and wiring it. Furthermore, Gareth Dennis(who is very pro-rail and pro HS2) said on Twitter and did a video that Woodhead shouldn't reopen and it is a windier route due to the lack of tunnels, the only one being Woodhead, with Hope Valley having 2 via Belle Vue and Guide Bridge and 3 via Stockport, Disley Tunnel(Stockport route only), Cowburn Tunnel and Totley Tunnel.

 

[snowball]

that Woodhead shouldn't reopen and it is a windier route due to the lack of tunnels, the only one being Woodhead, with Hope Valley having 2 via Belle Vue and Guide Bridge and 3 via Stockport

I assume that's windier as in more winding, rather than windier as in more subject to winds.

 

[WatcherZero]

If youve ever cross the Pennines by road you will know its probably both!

 

[quantinghome]

From another thread, one of my posts
I personally wouldn't because Network Rail did a study called the Northern Way and conclude that a 40 minute journey time isn't achieveable via Woodhead and is acheviable via Hope Valley and upgrading that line and wiring it. Furthermore, Gareth Dennis(who is very pro-rail and pro HS2) said on Twitter and did a video that Woodhead shouldn't reopen and it is a windier route due to the lack of tunnels, the only one being Woodhead, with Hope Valley having 2 via Belle Vue and Guide Bridge and 3 via Stockport, Disley Tunnel(Stockport route only), Cowburn Tunnel and Totley Tunnel.

I completely agree. But it can't see what that has to do with my post.

I was answering the question of whether, once HS2 and NPR are built, it would be quicker to go from Sheffield to Manchester via Leeds than via an upgraded Hope valley route.

 

[Hey 3]

I completely agree. But it can't see what that has to do with my post.

I was answering the question of whether, once HS2 and NPR are built, it would be quicker to go from Sheffield to Manchester via Leeds than via an upgraded Hope valley route.

I personally believe upgrading Hope Valley would be better and keeps Stockport as a regional interchange.

 

[nimbus21]

Even with stops in Warrington and at the Airport? I wonder. If there isn't to be a genuine high-speed line from Liverpool to Manchester, non-stop, then maybe exploiting Chat Moss to the maximum, with no stoppers and some further upgrading, might be a half-decent substitute.

Why all the fuss about Warrington? Are we thinking that NPR, if it's ever built, should stop in Halifax as well as in Bradford (if that wasn't bad enough to start with), or that on an upgraded Standedge line everything should be stopping at Dewsbury, or even that a station for Coventry is desperately needed on HS2? Surely the point of building high-speed lines is to get between major centres fast.

I think you have overlooked the fact that Bradford is one of the country's largest cities and that the main objective of NPR is to link the north's major cities.

 

[Hey 3]

I think you have overlooked the fact that Bradford is one of the country's largest cities and that the main objective of NPR is to link the north's major cities.

Correct, and needs better Manchester-Leeds and beyond services. Also don't forget Warrington as it interchanges with WBQ High Level(Low Level will be NPR, using the freight tracks) and its out of town development.

 

[Purple Orange]

The Chat Moss route has 2 fast trains each hour taking about 30-35 mins between Liverpool & Manchester.

What needs to be done to enable 4 fast trains every hour in 20-25 mins, plus accommodating the other traffic?

 

[CdBrux]

The Chat Moss route has 2 fast trains each hour taking about 30-35 mins between Liverpool & Manchester.

What needs to be done to enable 4 fast trains every hour in 20-25 mins, plus accommodating the other traffic?

I think first it could be good to describe what level of local traffic (i.e. suburban stoppers) is required at both ends, is it todays level or an enhanced one?

 

[edwin_m]

The Chat Moss route has 2 fast trains each hour taking about 30-35 mins between Liverpool & Manchester.

What needs to be done to enable 4 fast trains every hour in 20-25 mins, plus accommodating the other traffic?

It would be quite easy if there was no need to accommodate calls at the more minor stations, or freight.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think first it could be good to describe what level of local traffic (i.e. suburban stoppers) is required at both ends, is it todays level or an enhanced one?

It would be quite easy if there was no need to accommodate calls at the more minor stations, or freight.

I guess the local traffic and freight would still need to be accommodated. No doubt a lot of investment would be required, but would it fundamentally be more than building a new line via Warrington?

 

[Ianno87]

I guess the local traffic and freight would still need to be accommodated. No doubt a lot of investment would be required, but would it fundamentally be more than building a new line via Warrington?

You can do whatever you like on Chat Moss, but won't be worth anything if there's no capacity in Central Manchester to accommodate the extra trains

Hence a new route to latch onto the HS2 Manchester Spur, to get into Piccadilly.

 

[Purple Orange]

You can do whatever you like on Chat Moss, but won't be worth anything if there's no capacity in Central Manchester to accommodate the extra trains

Hence a new route to latch onto the HS2 Manchester Spur, to get into Piccadilly.

So in essence, a Chat Moss route would need an underground route through Manchester.

 

[Ianno87]

So in essence, a Chat Moss route would need an underground route through Manchester.

Or something with that equivalent level of capacity, yes.

 

[Hey 3]

Not to mention that Chat Moss needs major modifications(ground conditions) to increase line speed.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Chat Moss route has 2 fast trains each hour taking about 30-35 mins between Liverpool & Manchester.

What needs to be done to enable 4 fast trains every hour in 20-25 mins, plus accommodating the other traffic?

A new line.

 

[hwl]

A new line.

Indeed of which HS2 (2b) is sorting between M56 Jn 8 and Manchester Airport and Piccadilly so NPR only has to worry about the ~8miles between M56 Jn 8 and Warrington as new route. The rest to the west is upgrades (or potential straighten near Bank Quay) all the way to Lime Street.

 

[ABB125]

Indeed of which HS2 (2b) is sorting between M56 Jn 8 and Manchester Airport and Piccadilly so NPR only has to worry about the ~8miles between M56 Jn 8 and Warrington as new route. The rest to the west is upgrades (or potential straighten near Bank Quay) all the way to Lime Street.

Is it not going to be a new line all the way from Manchester to Liverpool then? I thought that was the ambition

 

[Glenn1969]

It will no doubt be whatever if anything the Treasury is prepared to fund

 

[MarkyT]

Is it not going to be a new line all the way from Manchester to Liverpool then? I thought that was the ambition

It will no doubt be whatever if anything the Treasury is prepared to fund

It makes no sense whatsoever to create a brand new alignment all the way into Central Liverpool if a suitable one is already available and traffic can be shuffled about to create the capacity required. Liverpool approaches from the south are nowhere near as congested as those to Manchester. The largely 4-track WCML approach to Edge Hill is seriously underutilised today, and two tracks could very plausibly be upgraded and dedicated to long-distance high speed. Connecting to that, the old line through Warrington Bank Quay low level is an obvious route to follow but through BQ and Sankey Bridge is particularly low lying and prone to flooding as well as being very twisty indeed and features two level crossings. A new alignment broadly following the corridor but flying over the south end of Bank Quay WCML platforms and going through the abandoned soap factory site is much more likely, I suggest.

 

[Purple Orange]

It makes no sense whatsoever to create a brand new alignment all the way into Central Liverpool if a suitable one is already available and traffic can be shuffled about to create the capacity required. Liverpool approaches from the south are nowhere near as congested as those to Manchester. The largely 4-track WCML approach to Edge Hill is seriously underutilised today, and two tracks could very plausibly be upgraded and dedicated to long-distance high speed. Connecting to that, the old line through Warrington Bank Quay low level is an obvious route to follow but through BQ and Sankey Bridge is particularly low lying and prone to flooding as well as being very twisty indeed and features two level crossings. A new alignment broadly following the corridor but flying over the south end of Bank Quay WCML platforms and going through the abandoned soap factory site is much more likely, I suggest.

Chances are the alignment for NPR in to Liverpool will be as you state, with the DfT looking to the cheapest option. However if it is not built, then the status quo remains via the Chat Moss. However this raises the question about Leeds-Manchester NPR trains and where do they go?

They will be able to go in to the Piccadilly HS2 station, and will still need to go in to Victoria to reach Liverpool. Yet the Chat Moss & Victoria won’t be able accommodate 6 fast NPR trains each hour and not utilising the Piccadilly HS2 station while clogging up other central Manchester lines would be madness.

 

[edwin_m]

Chances are the alignment for NPR in to Liverpool will be as you state, with the DfT looking to the cheapest option. However if it is not built, then the status quo remains via the Chat Moss. However this raises the question about Leeds-Manchester NPR trains and where do they go?

They will be able to go in to the Piccadilly HS2 station, and will still need to go in to Victoria to reach Liverpool. Yet the Chat Moss & Victoria won’t be able accommodate 6 fast NPR trains each hour and not utilising the Piccadilly HS2 station while clogging up other central Manchester lines would be madness.

Quite a lot of possibilities I think.

If NPR between the Airport and Liverpool opens without (or before) the new line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, then the new line could continue towards Leeds if there is a suitable connection onto the classic, line and that line has been electrified throughout. This would probably be a link between the new Piccadilly station and the Guide Bridge line. If neither that connection nor the new Bradford line is provided, then the new trains won't go further east than Piccadilly and probably some trains from Leeds and beyond will continue to run through to Liverpool via Victoria and Chat Moss.

 

[Purple Orange]

Quite a lot of possibilities I think.

If NPR between the Airport and Liverpool opens without (or before) the new line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, then the new line could continue towards Leeds if there is a suitable connection onto the classic, line and that line has been electrified throughout. This would probably be a link between the new Piccadilly station and the Guide Bridge line. If neither that connection nor the new Bradford line is provided, then the new trains won't go further east than Piccadilly and probably some trains from Leeds and beyond will continue to run through to Liverpool via Victoria and Chat Moss.

I think the bolder part will be what happens to NPR in east Manchester. It all depends on what the government opts to do in the Integrated Rail Plan, but whatever option is taken forward the alignment exists to have segregated tracks for NPR and segregated tracks for Glossop, Hadfield and the Hope Valley line.

NPR in the east can be many different things as long as the Leeds junction at Piccadilly is connected to the classic network as a minimum. The options are:

• NPR (East)
  1. £17bn for a 100% new line via Bradford
  2. £13bn for a partial new line & use sections of the upgraded Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TRU) on the classic line via Huddersfield.
  3. £3bn for a fully electrified line and completed TRU.
• NPR (West)
  1. A new line from HS2 to Liverpool via Warrington.
  2. Do nothing and stick with the Chat Moss.

Option 3 for NPR (East) is the easiest and cheapest. However the question in my mind is what happens if there is no NPR line from the airport to Warrington & Liverpool, but one of the NPR (East) options is taken?

 

[Halifaxlad]

It makes no sense whatsoever to create a brand new alignment all the way into Central Liverpool if a suitable one is already available and traffic can be shuffled about to create the capacity required. Liverpool approaches from the south are nowhere near as congested as those to Manchester. The largely 4-track WCML approach to Edge Hill is seriously underutilised today, and two tracks could very plausibly be upgraded and dedicated to long-distance high speed. Connecting to that, the old line through Warrington Bank Quay low level is an obvious route to follow but through BQ and Sankey Bridge is particularly low lying and prone to flooding as well as being very twisty indeed and features two level crossings. A new alignment broadly following the corridor but flying over the south end of Bank Quay WCML platforms and going through the abandoned soap factory site is much more likely, I suggest.

But where would you put the station
?

Recent articles have suggested that a new station is to be built!

 

[HSTEd]

The real question you have to answer before discussion a station site, is how many platforms do you actually need.

 

[MarkyT]

But where would you put the station
?

Recent articles have suggested that a new station is to be built!

One option, at least in the medium term, could be to create additional long-distance capacity at Lime Street by diverting other currently terminating local services via new/reused tunnel routes connecting with the Merseyrail tunnels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One option, at least in the medium term, could be to create additional long-distance capacity at Lime Street by diverting other currently terminating local services via new/reused tunnel routes connecting with the Merseyrail tunnels.

There isn't a capacity issue at Lime St per-se because these would replace existing services (if HS2 wasn't a Swiss style NBS then this is). The new station is about providing a station capable of taking 400m trains for HS2 and a vanity project.

 

[MarkyT]

There isn't a capacity issue at Lime St per-se because these would replace existing services (if HS2 wasn't a Swiss style NBS then this is). The new station is about providing a station capable of taking 400m trains for HS2 and a vanity project.

Half-hourly HS2 service to London will be more frequent than today's Pendolinos. NPR services at Liverpool will probably also exceed the total of today's Transpennine expresses terminating there. Without a new station, many HS2 trains will have to be portions with the indignity of having to join carriages serving other stations in the north-west of England at Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Half-hourly HS2 service to London will be more frequent than today's Pendolinos.

Avanti are introducing a second train per hour at the existing station using the 80x they have on order, so there is capacity.

NPR services at Liverpool will probably also exceed the total of today's Transpennine expresses terminating there.

Possibly a few extra, but the station is hardly used to capacity.

Without a new station, many HS2 trains will have to be portions with the indignity of having to join carriages serving other stations in the north-west of England at Crewe.

Precisely what I mean by a vanity project. 2 x 200m per hour will be plenty. It's just more M62 envy of Manchester and an utter waste of money.

Not opposed to Merseyrail expansion, that said - NPR may for example allow Warrington Central to be done by removing the need for fast trains on that route.

 

[edwin_m]

Option 3 for NPR (East) is the easiest and cheapest. However the question in my mind is what happens if there is no NPR line from the airport to Warrington & Liverpool, but one of the NPR (East) options is taken?

If NPR (East) is TRU then probably it would stick with the existing route via Victoria and Chat Moss, and Piccadilly NPR platforms wouldn't happen.

If NPR (East) leaves Manchester on the Guide Bridge line or some other new route from Piccadilly but there is no high speed route to Liverpool then I suspect it will be like HS2 in Birmingham - the NPR high speed trains terminate in Manchester and anyone going between Liverpool and further east either has to change trains or use a slower through train on the classic route.

However I think Manchester-Liverpool high speed is much more likely to happen than Manchester-Leeds, and if both are agreed the former could be introduced much sooner. A Manchester-Liverpool high speed route gets a big chunk of high speed infrastructure for free courtesy of HS2, and as discussed above disused or lightly-used tracks can provide much of the rest. To get high speeds on Manchester-Leeds would require brand new infrastructure in much more challenging terrain, and even the design and approvals process is probably five years minimum.