Most useful HS2 section?

[fishwomp]

If - and this is not an opinion either way - HS2 were cancelled.. let's say, most likely before Euston - Old Oak was completed as that's a very expensive bit.. and before the rolling stock got ordered. What would you do with the bits of trackbed? What bits remain useful?

To my mind:

Birmingham Int => New Street.

• Complete the travellator link to the real Birmingham Int, and add a spur at Balsall Common for the Coventry line to connect in. Now Brum-Cov has capacity for stoppers and to let XC + WC run top speed into New Street.
• Make Curzon Street span all lines, possibly close New Street, or stop through trains at both.

Keep Birmingham C S => Stafford

• Curzon Street - Stafford => alas this misses Wolverhampton - but running half the XC this way may be OK?

Aylesbury area?

• [Milton Keynes] => Aylesbury => Northolt => Marylebone ? Unless cancelled before the tunnel completes..

Everything else looks really distant from other lines, so hard to make use of? Maybe just a disconnected preserved railway? Give the Severn Valley some fun by relocating and upping the line speed

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Use the extra space at Euston for an expanded station throat and more platforms.

 

[D365]

HS2 won't be cancelled. Not least all the contractors would have to be compensated. The huge costs written off would likely become even more controversial than HS2 itself.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

HS2 won't be cancelled. Not least all the contractors would have to be compensated. The huge costs written off would likely become even more controversial than HS2 itself.

The whole point of the thread is that its a fantasy thread. OP said he knows HS2 won't be cancelled. Its an interesting discussion anyhow.

 

[The Planner]

Think you need to look at a HS2 map first. Sticking a chord in at Berkswell won't allow more stoppers as you dont have spare capacity between there and Cov. You can't get into New St with what you divert.
Curzon St is nowhere near the existing lines or in the same orientation.
HS2 joins the WCML near Lichfield, not Stafford (it doesnt connect at all near there). North of Lichfield to Crewe is phase 2A and how are XC getting onto the HS2 trace at Curzon St as there is no connection to it from classic lines.

 

[fishwomp]

Think you need to look at a HS2 map first. Sticking a chord in at Berkswell won't allow more stoppers as you dont have spare capacity between there and Cov. You can't get into New St with what you divert.

Uh? Instead of the fasts sticking on the same line for the full 22 minutes between Cov and NewSt/CurzS, they'd be on the same for about 3 mins. You really, really, _can_ improve frequency _and_ resilience this way..

Curzon St is nowhere near the existing lines or in the same orientation.

That's funny - it looks adjacent to me, have they moved it???

HS2 joins the WCML near Lichfield, not Stafford (it doesnt connect at all near there). North of Lichfield to Crewe is phase 2A and how are XC getting onto the HS2 trace at Curzon St as there is no connection to it from classic lines.

Phase 2A is what I was referring to by Stafford - but yes, north of there, Crewe if you like - or halfway between which is first point they cross at.

There's also no connection between anything - but I would assume 100 yards to be easier to build than 100 miles, so we know how to do this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

The whole point of the thread is that its a fantasy thread. OP said he knows HS2 won't be cancelled. Its an interesting discussion anyhow.

That's why it's in the Speculative Ideas. I don't think anything in here ever comes to pass

However, if it weren't cancelled, then this could also be considered as a "what connections between the classic and the new should exist" question.. XC would benefit if they could leave the slow trains behind at Cov!

 

[D365]

The whole point of the thread is that its a fantasy thread. OP said he knows HS2 won't be cancelled. Its an interesting discussion anyhow.

HS2 won't be cancelled in in my fantasy

Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between "fantasy" postings and serious proposals.

 

[zwk500]

• Make Curzon Street span all lines, possibly close New Street, or stop through trains at both.

That's funny - it looks adjacent to me, have they moved it???

Curzon Street is nearly adjacent to Moor Street, but a few hundred meters from New Street. It's also at a completely different elevation to both, has a grade 1 listed structure at the end of the platforms (thereby preventing it from ever being a through station) and has no connection to any classic line anywhere in Birmingham, nor can it possibly make any without flattening a wide area.

 

[fishwomp]

Curzon Street is nearly adjacent to Moor Street, but a few hundred meters from New Street. It's also at a completely different elevation to both, has a grade 1 listed structure at the end of the platforms (thereby preventing it from ever being a through station) and has no connection to any classic line anywhere in Birmingham, nor can it possibly make any without flattening a wide area.

It's not the distance to New Street that matters - I'm not saying one station.. unless New Street were closed but that's a different question.

The G1 listed building is the width of like 2 platforms - but what you want is a terminus set of platforms and through platforms. The through platforms being on the existing line.. with viaduct widened to add more through platforms if necessary. To solve the elevation problem - I'm not sure there is a problem: lifts and escalators for people, and the trains go at the ground level if at terminal platforms, and err, the viaduct level if not. This is hardly hard work!

Here's a picture.



That red stuff is soil of the Curzon St works, and direct top centre is the G1 building you talk about. The existing New Street line is at the bottom edge of the site - exactly where the Platform 1 would end..

Less walking than P1 to P14 at Manchester Piccadilly..

Heck, build out the viaduct towards bottom left (widen it now whilst it's a building site...) and you actual start to touch Moor Street. Finally Birmingham would have one decent interchange station for everything..

 

[zwk500]

It's not the distance to New Street that matters - I'm not saying one station.. unless New Street were closed but that's a different question.

The G1 listed building is the width of like 2 platforms - but what you want is a terminus set of platforms and through platforms. The through platforms being on the existing line.. with viaduct widened to add more through platforms if necessary. To solve the elevation problem - I'm not sure there is a problem: lifts and escalators for people, and the trains go at the ground level if at terminal platforms, and err, the viaduct level if not. This is hardly hard work!

Widening the viaduct comes under the category of 'very hard work'. Not least because it's almost continually changing gradient, and some of those gradients would be very close to the minimum values allowed by the standards. If you wanted connections from the classic line to the ground-level terminal platforms you're looking at a junction about 1 mile from the Station building.

Here's a picture.

Heck, build out the viaduct towards bottom left (widen it now whilst it's a building site...) and you actual start to touch Moor Street. Finally Birmingham would have one decent interchange station for everything..

The gradient on the viaduct in the picture does not permit platforms. You can't level it out without either removing grade-separation from Proof House Jn or introducing Level Crossings to central Birmingham. You can also see in that picture the pointwork for Grand Junction/Proof House Jn, so you'd either need to completely rebuild that (from scratch) or have platforms limited to different lines, which will require more platforms overall and therefore more space. It's beginning to cost somewhere close to what HS2 will cost anyway, at which point HS2 is by far the better option.

 

[The Planner]

Uh? Instead of the fasts sticking on the same line for the full 22 minutes between Cov and NewSt/CurzS, they'd be on the same for about 3 mins. You really, really, _can_ improve frequency _and_ resilience this way..


That's funny - it looks adjacent to me, have they moved it???


Phase 2A is what I was referring to by Stafford - but yes, north of there, Crewe if you like - or halfway between which is first point they cross at.

There's also no connection between anything - but I would assume 100 yards to be easier to build than 100 miles, so we know how to do this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==



That's why it's in the Speculative Ideas. I don't think anything in here ever comes to pass

However, if it weren't cancelled, then this could also be considered as a "what connections between the classic and the new should exist" question.. XC would benefit if they could leave the slow trains behind at Cov!

No, you still have stopping trains at Canley and Tile Hill and well as the fast trains. The structure of the timetable is still going to be the same therefore you are still going to find it difficult to do. A fast train from Coventry to Berkswell is 4½, 5 minutes. A stopper takes 10.

Curzon St is next to Moor St as mentioned. The HS2 lines are also much higher than the existing network, consider the fact they go over the Cross City North viaduct on the way into Curzon St at the aptly name Viaduct St. Again, as mentioned, platforms at Proof House on a 1 in 40 gradient isn't going to work, even more so when they would only be in the second signal section from the platform ends of New St.

In terms of if any disparate piece of HS2 would be of any use, I am not convinced any of it would be.

 

[Purple Orange]

IT’S ALL USEFUL!!!

But apart from that, I’d say the station planned to be built down the road from my house will be the most useful!

 

[JohnElliott]

The bit which uses the GCML alignment, as it'll be useful when the heritage railway gets that far south.

 

[D365]

The bit which uses the GCML alignment, as it'll be useful when the heritage railway gets that far south.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

What would I do with the trackbed if HS2 was cancelled? Probably build a railway along it...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What would I do with the trackbed if HS2 was cancelled? Probably build a railway along it...

Yep! Not a road for sure if we truly believe in Climate change