Compulsory reservations - providing adequate local services

[Bletchleyite]

Please note, this thread is not intended for the discussion of the merits or otherwise of compulsory reservation "InterCity" services. The existing thread remains to discuss that here:

Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

There is an article in MR this month in which David Horne as good as says that LNER is likely to keep compulsory reservations permanently. It doesn’t quite say it directly, but rather something like “compulsory reservations will be a part of LNER’s future”, and also alludes to a possibility of...

www.railforums.co.uk

That over with, I'm interested in how we would retain provision of adequate local service in the event of such a thing being implemented, taking into account that piling local passengers onto IC services isn't always the best plan anyway, and what would need to change to enable such things.

A few that spring to mind are:
Crewe-Carlisle - could an hourly local service be pathed there?
ECML - I'm not familiar with the service patterns, but could some stopping LNER services be replaced with a LNR style service?
TPE - is it IC or not? I think I'd see the WCML services as IC but the rest of it not?
XC - the biggest problem of them all - how do we provide adequate (mostly West Midlands) commuter capacity so commuters can be removed from it
GWR - the Reading commuters?

Any thoughts?

 

[py_megapixel]

Regarding commuters from Reading, is there any capacity for extra Crossrail services, running semi-fast?

Personally I'd remove all intercity calls at any station between London and Reading (I think it might just be Slough?).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I'd remove all intercity calls at any station between London and Reading (I think it might just be Slough?).

It is mostly just Slough, and it's on the Oxford and Worcester services which aren't really InterCity, though they use 80x because they need bi-modes. I don't think compulsory reservations would be sensibly applied on this service which is really a posh regional express. However isn't there also the odd one at Maidenhead?

I suspect to take Reading commuters off the ICs you'd need at least a 4tph 12-car local service (say 2 Reading-Slough-Padd and 2 Reading-Maidenhead-Padd) - the question is what you'd have to lop to fit that in.

It might, on the other hand, be just as easy to accept it and allow them to just pile on eastbound, and westbound to have a machine or phone app giving out last minute "standby" reservations of seats which, by say 10 minutes before departure, are either reserved Reading to points west or are completely untaken.

 

[py_megapixel]

What about the Cheltenham service?

That is an intercity service until Swindon, at which point it becomes the local stopper serving stations on the Chalford Valley. That arrangement works extremely well at the moment, so to mess around with it just for the purpose of having compulsory reservations on intercity services would be extremely silly.

 

[Non Multi]

Regarding commuters from Reading, is there any capacity for extra Crossrail services, running semi-fast?

There will be an increase in trains when the tunnels open, but XR is really for the benefit of commuters east of Reading. The peak fast 12 car GWR Electrostars should easily handle the Reading commuter traffic.

 

[Mag_seven]

GWR - the Reading commuters?

The problem with GWR is its not just Reading commuters - its Didcot commuters, Swindon commuters, Chippenham commuters etc. A large proportion of GWR Bristol and South Wales "Intercity" services are used by commuters who need to be able to "turn up and go". And its not just to London either - for example there are a lot of commuters from Swindon/Chippenham to Bristol and their services are only provided by London-Bristol "Intercity" trains.

 

[RailWonderer]

Capacity for an extra path and passenger demand is key in whether a local or regional service replaces an IC in calling at certain stations, wherever you look on the network. The East Midlands is far sparser than the West Midlands, and much of the commuter traffic is on Thameslink. That ends at Bedford and Peterborough.

Certain IC services attract commuters because a stopper would not give them a fast enough service to commute daily. I'm thinking about XC. GWR has no capacity left east of Reading full stop. A strange thing to be considering in times like these. I'm not invested in the drama the idea of compulsory reservations is causing at the moment, In reality we keep seeing IC services double up as regional expresses at certain times of day.

The one viable one you mention is the Crewe - Carlisle. A couple of ICs could be sped up and some stations would have an upgrade of frequency, and there is some capacity to be had there. As long as it used 110mph minimum stock, it could work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with GWR is its not just Reading commuters - its Didcot commuters, Swindon commuters, Chippenham commuters etc. A large proportion of GWR Bristol and South Wales "Intercity" services are used by commuters who need to be able to "turn up and go". And its not just to London either - for example there are a lot of commuters from Swindon/Chippenham to Bristol and their services are only provided by London-Bristol "Intercity" trains.

Perhaps, then, only the Penzance services would be suitable? GWR is (other than the Penzance services) I agree a bit different from the WCML and ECML (maybe more like the MML or Greater Anglia) - more a semifast commuter service than true IC.

 

[Roast Veg]

What do you do about Burton? Reservations on the Voyagers but not the Turbostars?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one viable one you mention is the Crewe - Carlisle. A couple of ICs could be sped up and some stations would have an upgrade of frequency, and there is some capacity to be had there. As long as it used 110mph minimum stock, it could work.

That might work well as an extension of the Trent Valley stopper, provided there was platform capacity at Crewe or maybe Preston for a decently long layover so that didn't make it unreliable (is there? Post HS2?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

What do you do about Burton? Reservations on the Voyagers but not the Turbostars?

Probably, yes. The Turbostars should really be with either EMR or WMT anyway, they are not an InterCity service at all, they are a regional express very similar to what didn't become "Northern Connect".

 

[RailWonderer]

That might work well as an extension of the Trent Valley stopper, provided there was platform capacity at Crewe or maybe Preston for a decently long layover so that didn't make it unreliable (is there? Post HS2?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==



Probably, yes. The Turbostars should really be with either EMR or WMT anyway, they are not an InterCity service at all, they are a regional express very similar to what didn't become "Northern Connect".

If it happened, a different ToC with different rolling stock would have to run it, and they could share a through platform, but the train would have to be 3 or 4 cars at most if the Euston - Crewe is mostly (or always) 8 car. A bit like how Norwich - Liverpool is splitting at Nottingham.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps, then, only the Penzance services would be suitable? GWR is (other than the Penzance services) I agree a bit different from the WCML and ECML (maybe more like the MML or Greater Anglia) - more a semifast commuter service than true IC.

The Penzance services are local services West of Exeter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Penzance services are local services West of Exeter.

There is a sort of example of that elsewhere. The EuroCity services (ex-Cisalpino) from Geneva to Milan operate as effectively Frecciargento within Italy (so compulsory reservation and market pricing), but just as "trains" within Switzerland (though they show as EC on the displays). So reservations are optional and regular SBB tickets accepted up to Brig (I don't think they stop at Domodossola), then mandatory thereafter.

I think this is because SBB insist that if you're taking a slot in the Takt then you have to operate for Swiss domestic journeys on the same basis as SBB does.

 

[Roast Veg]

Probably, yes. The Turbostars should really be with either EMR or WMT anyway, they are not an InterCity service at all, they are a regional express very similar to what didn't become "Northern Connect".

Well WMT surely, as they're all Tyseley based and some WMT staff drive the Leicester terminators I believe. They wear WMT-branded high-vis jackets at least!

 

[yorksrob]

There is a sort of example of that elsewhere. The EuroCity services (ex-Cisalpino) from Geneva to Milan operate as effectively Frecciargento within Italy (so compulsory reservation and market pricing), but just as "trains" within Switzerland (though they show as EC on the displays). So reservations are optional and regular SBB tickets accepted up to Brig (I don't think they stop at Domodossola), then mandatory thereafter.

I think this is because SBB insist that if you're taking a slot in the Takt then you have to operate for Swiss domestic journeys on the same basis as SBB does.

It sounds like a fairly complicated regulatory regime.

My instinct is that its just better to have reservations as an option for people. I would say that even for advanced purchase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds like a fairly complicated regulatory regime.

My instinct is that its just better to have reservations as an option for people. I would say that even for advanced purchase.

I'd forgotten about the UK example - the Cally from Fort William. You can use "domestic" tickets on it without reservation as far as Edinburgh, but thereafter a reservation is required. People cope with that.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd forgotten about the UK example - the Cally from Fort William. You can use "domestic" tickets on it without reservation as far as Edinburgh, but thereafter a reservation is required. People cope with that.

Why make people cope with something when they can have the option instead ?

The railway needs to get away from the whole ethos of forcing people to behave ever more tightly how it wants them to. They should make it as easy for people to turn up and go as possible.