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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

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Baxenden Bank

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If vaccine passports become a thing for international travel, I unfortunately see that those that cannot have a vaccine (for whatever reason) unable to properly travel.

Take Yellow Fever. You can of course get an exemption certificate for it (my mum did just that on our recent trip to Tanzania), but in reality you are at the mercy of the Tanzanian border officials, who will ultimately decide whether that document is sufficient - if it’s not, you will get jabbed there and then with whatever needle they find. Thankfully they never checked our documents.

So for a vaccine passport for international travel to be non discriminatory, you need full cooperation from all countries throughout the world (yeah ok!!!) to recognise medical exemptions. Alternatively, a country such as the UK should lead the way and refuse to issue such a document on discrimination grounds and I reckon a lot of countries would soon follow our lead.

Domestic use really worries me though. Say I travelled 100 miles and forgot my vaccine passport at home (it could never be a mobile app unless of course we are to discriminate against all those that don’t own a smart phone). I could then potentially be unable to fill up my car with fuel to get home, or nip to the shop for food etc. And if I got stopped and I didn’t have this card, could I get fined? A year ago a lockdown was something a communist country may have done. Today, I don’t put it passed the Government to introduce legislation that I will be fined if not in possession of my domestic vaccine card at all times. A very slippery slope...
And by default, a vaccine card becomes a National Identity Card, to be carried at all times and presented on demand, with or without good reason, to anyone who fancies asking. Even the vendor in the park. No ID, no IC (ice cream).

The difference with Yellow Fever, as discussed on a radio programme the other day, there is only one version of the vaccine. The England Roadmap issued yesterday lists 8 vaccines for this country alone. What if Tanzania accepts Pfizer but not Moderna. Being vaccinated, but not suitably vaccinated is a clear risk. But then you take Tazara (the train) to Zambia, who accept Moderna but not Pfizer, then you continue to Democratic Republic of Congo who only accept the Russia vaccine (Sputnik was it?).
 
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island

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As I (unfortunately) predicted some months ago, the current idea appears to be to add it to the NHS contact tracing app.
I read it will be the NHS app rather than the NHS COVID-19 app, for what it's worth.
As with voting and any requirement to hold photo ID, most of the population will have a vaccination and be able to show a card (or whatever) to prove it. They will regard those without a card as being awkward, rather than be willing to stand alongside them in any kind of show of solidarity. As with masks and those legally entitled to not wear one "they should stay at home then".
Indeed.
 

david1212

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If vaccine passports become a thing for international travel, I unfortunately see that those that cannot have a vaccine (for whatever reason) unable to properly travel.

Take Yellow Fever. You can of course get an exemption certificate for it (my mum did just that on our recent trip to Tanzania), but in reality you are at the mercy of the Tanzanian border officials, who will ultimately decide whether that document is sufficient - if it’s not, you will get jabbed there and then with whatever needle they find. Thankfully they never checked our documents.

So for a vaccine passport for international travel to be non discriminatory, you need full cooperation from all countries throughout the world (yeah ok!!!) to recognise medical exemptions. Alternatively, a country such as the UK should lead the way and refuse to issue such a document on discrimination grounds and I reckon a lot of countries would soon follow our lead.

The UK passport should be issued, or at least readily available, to all who have been vaccinated or are medically exempt. For the latter probably discretely coded so recognised by the scanner but not visually. While of course not all but in reality most who are exempt and travelling abroad would also have something to support being exempt e.g. carrying medication.

For those who choose not to be vaccinated not being able to travel abroad maybe something they have to accept as a consequence of their decision.

Domestic use really worries me though. Say I travelled 100 miles and forgot my vaccine passport at home (it could never be a mobile app unless of course we are to discriminate against all those that don’t own a smart phone). I could then potentially be unable to fill up my car with fuel to get home, or nip to the shop for food etc. And if I got stopped and I didn’t have this card, could I get fined? A year ago a lockdown was something a communist country may have done. Today, I don’t put it passed the Government to introduce legislation that I will be fined if not in possession of my domestic vaccine card at all times. A very slippery slope...

I simply can not see a vaccine passport needing to be produced a filling station not least as outdoor and if not pay at pump an outdoor payment window. Close behind are shops and anywhere where only in close proximity to others not in your household and regular contacts for a brief time ( bubbles will fizzle out ).

I see them only ever being requested where close to others for longer than at least 15 minutes, which as I understand is the trigger for the track and trace app. I'm thinking of cinemas, theatres, nightclubs and similar, festivals even if outdoor due to the crowding close to the stages. Cafes, restaurants, pubs etc are a grey area as some have tables and groups well spaced but others pack in as many as possible.
Will anything be legal or just down to the choice of the private venue ? On one hand it might increase business / attendance as all there know all others are vaccinated or exempt. On the other might they be blacklisted for their discriminatory attitude ?

As to carrying the card being a legal requirement that is a step too far. Even if it was there should be a way of checking. Remember carrying a driving licence and proof of insurance is not a legal requirement. Without proof all that will happen is being refused entry but that takes us right back to discrimination, exclusion and segregation.


If I had to stand one side of the fence in the end within the UK I think the discrimination issues will win but there will be some requirement for travel abroad. This year maybe anywhere but longer term fewer places once the majority at the destination country are vaccinated.
 
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RomeoCharlie71

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I see them only ever being requested where close to others for longer than at least 15 minutes, which as I understand is the trigger for the track and trace app. I'm think of cinemas, theatres, nightclubs and similar, festivals even if outdoor due to the crowding close to the stages. Cafes, restaurants, pubs etc are a grey area as some have tables and groups well spaced but others pack in as many as possible.
Did we do this last summer when 0% of the population were vaccinated?

Do we do this each flu season?

Are you basically saying you show your ticket and vaccination certificate when boarding a bus/train?
 

Isaiah

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The entire idea of a vaccine passport is insane. 1984 on steroids. Shows what an authoritarian mess this country has become.

Is there any such precedent for this level of Orwellianism? I can't find one
 

35B

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The entire idea of a vaccine passport is insane. 1984 on steroids. Shows what an authoritarian mess this country has become.

Is there any such precedent for this level of Orwellianism? I can't find one
I have mixed feelings on the use of vaccine passports. But to compare them with 1984 is ridiculous, as you’d know if you’d actually read it.

Meanwhile, I recommend reading that, and then his essay “Politics and the English Language” for an idea of why his prose style was and is so effective.
 

Isaiah

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I have mixed feelings on the use of vaccine passports. But to compare them with 1984 is ridiculous, as you’d know if you’d actually read it.
Can you not see the blatant parallels of authoritarianism?

Although "Brave New World" by Huxley is probably a better comparison, I'll give you that.
 

35B

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Can you not see the blatant parallels of authoritarianism?

Although "Brave New World" by Huxley is probably a better comparison, I'll give you that.
I don’t see them. Not least because I don’t see the totalitarian attempts at thought control that are central to both novels.
 

Isaiah

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I don’t see the totalitarian attempts at thought control that are central to both novels.
I can. Have you ever seen the "look them in the eyes" propaganda posters designed to emotionally blackmail and keep you in line?

It's actually quite obvious once you see it. Painfully obvious in fact, to the extent where you cannot unsee it.
 

35B

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I can. Have you ever seen the "look them in the eyes" propaganda posters designed to emotionally blackmail and keep you in line?

It's actually quite obvious once you see it. Painfully obvious in fact, to the extent where you cannot unsee it.
Then I suggest you look at the difference between propaganda (which that advertising undoubtedly is) and the way in which totalitarian regimes compel adherence. To start with, just try to imagine this forum in China...
 

DustyBin

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Then I suggest you look at the difference between propaganda (which that advertising undoubtedly is) and the way in which totalitarian regimes compel adherence. To start with, just try to imagine this forum in China...

They have to start somewhere though, don’t they? Yes it sounds hyperbolic to an extent, but things are now happening that we thought could never happen less than a year ago. The danger is that we simply sleepwalk into authoritarianism without the majority even realising. It’s quite clear that the government and their advisors have been pleasantly surprised at how compliant we actually are and I personally don’t trust them not to further test the boundaries. After all, if the ‘experts’ think we should or shouldn’t do something, who are we to argue?...
 

Bantamzen

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If vaccine passports become a thing for international travel, I unfortunately see that those that cannot have a vaccine (for whatever reason) unable to properly travel.

Take Yellow Fever. You can of course get an exemption certificate for it (my mum did just that on our recent trip to Tanzania), but in reality you are at the mercy of the Tanzanian border officials, who will ultimately decide whether that document is sufficient - if it’s not, you will get jabbed there and then with whatever needle they find. Thankfully they never checked our documents.

So for a vaccine passport for international travel to be non discriminatory, you need full cooperation from all countries throughout the world (yeah ok!!!) to recognise medical exemptions. Alternatively, a country such as the UK should lead the way and refuse to issue such a document on discrimination grounds and I reckon a lot of countries would soon follow our lead.

Domestic use really worries me though. Say I travelled 100 miles and forgot my vaccine passport at home (it could never be a mobile app unless of course we are to discriminate against all those that don’t own a smart phone). I could then potentially be unable to fill up my car with fuel to get home, or nip to the shop for food etc. And if I got stopped and I didn’t have this card, could I get fined? A year ago a lockdown was something a communist country may have done. Today, I don’t put it passed the Government to introduce legislation that I will be fined if not in possession of my domestic vaccine card at all times. A very slippery slope...
I do like your idea of the government saying we will not be issuing covid-passports under any circumstances, so long as it was qualified by giving the reasons, i.e. There are multiple vaccines, it may become necessary to offer regular boosters as with flu jabs, or perhaps even just that covid is endemic across the globe so what the hell point is there is carrying around a little piece of paper (or a few bits on a passport / smartphone) to say that you might be less likely to spread something that is already spread to every corner of the world.

You see this is my biggest objection to the idea of vaccine passports, that is to say that they are the bureaucratic equivalent of shutting the stable door long after the horse has bolted, lived out a happy life in a field far away, and who now has several generations of family doing the same. But they could have some very unwanted side effects.

And by default, a vaccine card becomes a National Identity Card, to be carried at all times and presented on demand, with or without good reason, to anyone who fancies asking. Even the vendor in the park. No ID, no IC (ice cream).

The difference with Yellow Fever, as discussed on a radio programme the other day, there is only one version of the vaccine. The England Roadmap issued yesterday lists 8 vaccines for this country alone. What if Tanzania accepts Pfizer but not Moderna. Being vaccinated, but not suitably vaccinated is a clear risk. But then you take Tazara (the train) to Zambia, who accept Moderna but not Pfizer, then you continue to Democratic Republic of Congo who only accept the Russia vaccine (Sputnik was it?).
Indeed, and it is why I wish that governments would concern themselves more with getting the vaccine to all countries, so that they may protect their vulnerable & reduce the argument for vaccine passports in the first place.

I have mixed feelings on the use of vaccine passports. But to compare them with 1984 is ridiculous, as you’d know if you’d actually read it.

Meanwhile, I recommend reading that, and then his essay “Politics and the English Language” for an idea of why his prose style was and is so effective.
The world that Orwell projected us into with that book would not have started like that. The whole point of the story was a warning of what could happen if we let authoritarian regimes run unchecked. These kind of regimes have a starting point, where the rights & liberties of a country's citizens are stretched then eroded. And maybe it could start with some form of "health pass" off the back of covid.

Want to go shopping, sure just tap in with your smartID card which holds your vaccine status for covid. In fact why stop at covid, let's include all the childhood vaccines, maybe add influenza, then maybe in time add your mental wellbeing, your occupation, your political alignment. It all starts somewhere. What Nineteen Eighty Four sought to show us is where the rabbit hole leads us, it shows us that we the people (proles) must never allow ourselves to give responsibility for all our day to day decisions into the hands of government. Then along with Animal Farm Orwell showed us why we must not allow a person's status, job, or health determine what they can and cannot do.

I can. Have you ever seen the "look them in the eyes" propaganda posters designed to emotionally blackmail and keep you in line?

It's actually quite obvious once you see it. Painfully obvious in fact, to the extent where you cannot unsee it.
Its very disturbing isn't it.

"Look Big Brother in his eyes"....
 

35B

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The world that Orwell projected us into with that book would not have started like that. The whole point of the story was a warning of what could happen if we let authoritarian regimes run unchecked. These kind of regimes have a starting point, where the rights & liberties of a country's citizens are stretched then eroded. And maybe it could start with some form of "health pass" off the back of covid.

Want to go shopping, sure just tap in with your smartID card which holds your vaccine status for covid. In fact why stop at covid, let's include all the childhood vaccines, maybe add influenza, then maybe in time add your mental wellbeing, your occupation, your political alignment. It all starts somewhere. What Nineteen Eighty Four sought to show us is where the rabbit hole leads us, it shows us that we the people (proles) must never allow ourselves to give responsibility for all our day to day decisions into the hands of government. Then along with Animal Farm Orwell showed us why we must not allow a person's status, job, or health determine what they can and cannot do.


Its very disturbing isn't it.

"Look Big Brother in his eyes"....
Orwell wrote a book that was explicitly about a regime run by a cabal who seized power in a revolution, where the early days of Big Brother’s dictatorship are explicitly discussed.

if you then read it with Animal Farm and Homage to Catalonia, you can see a particular focus on and hostility to the sort of “dictatorship of the people” represented by Soviet style communism (think of his difficulties in getting Animal Farm published).

I’d agree that “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance”, but the arguments of some on here that what we have in response to Covid are some proto-authoritarian state just don’t stack up, and the comparisons to assorted dystopian fiction are simply not credible.

Personally, my hunch is that if Orwell were alive today, he’d be tearing the likes of CRG a new orifice or two, and challenging all parties over the health and economic inequalities that Covid causes.
 

Bantamzen

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Orwell wrote a book that was explicitly about a regime run by a cabal who seized power in a revolution, where the early days of Big Brother’s dictatorship are explicitly discussed.

if you then read it with Animal Farm and Homage to Catalonia, you can see a particular focus on and hostility to the sort of “dictatorship of the people”
represented by Soviet style communism (think of his difficulties in getting Animal Farm published).

I’d agree that “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance”, but the arguments of some on here that what we have in response to Covid are some proto-authoritarian state just don’t stack up, and the comparisons to assorted dystopian fiction are simply not credible.

Personally, my hunch is that if Orwell were alive today, he’d be tearing the likes of CRG a new orifice or two, and challenging all parties over the health and economic inequalities that Covid causes.
And what do you think is happening in this country other than a sort of “dictatorship of the people”, albeit without the Soviet style communism (at least thus far)? All the "Stay home, save Lives!" & "Look into X's eyes type messaging is generating exactly the sort of reactions we see in Nineteen Eighty Four. Which is what I and other posters are referring to.
 

Philip

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And what do you think is happening in this country other than a sort of “dictatorship of the people”, albeit without the Soviet style communism (at least thus far)? All the "Stay home, save Lives!" & "Look into X's eyes type messaging is generating exactly the sort of reactions we see in Nineteen Eighty Four. Which is what I and other posters are referring to.

There is no dictatorship in this country, it is just a nod towards taking personal responsibility to help others.
 

Bantamzen

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There is no dictatorship in this country, it is just a nod towards taking personal responsibility to help others.
Not as an actual powerbase, but read my post again and make the comparison to the behaviour of the characters in the book. There are parallels, which is what Orwell was warning about.
 

Philip

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Not as an actual powerbase, but read my post again and make the comparison to the behaviour of the characters in the book. There are parallels, which is what Orwell was warning about.

I don't know much about what happened in 1984 but I think you are overthinking things and I don't think it helps either yourself or others to be thinking along these lines, making parallels with previous events. It breeds resentment towards the establishment which isn't healthy. Let's worry about domestic vaccine passports if they actually happen, which I'm fairly sure they won't. As for the messaging, it'll disappear with the lifting of restrictions/vaccination progress.
 
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Bantamzen

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I don't know much about what happened in 1984 but I think you are overthinking things and I don't think it helps either yourself or others to be thinking along these lines, making parallels with previous events. It breeds resentment towards the establishment which isn't healthy.
So you haven't read the book then? If not, perhaps you might like before making comment on my responses in this thread.
 

Huntergreed

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I don't know much about what happened in 1984 but I think you are overthinking things and I don't think it helps either yourself or others to be thinking along these lines, making parallels with previous events. It breeds resentment towards the establishment which isn't healthy.
Quoted from 1984:

Everything other than working was forbidden: walking in the streets, having fun, singing, dancing, getting together, everything was forbidden.

Not exactly far off is it?

We know that no one seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it

So far, this has seemed true.

From animal farm:

If Liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear

Our government has failed to notice this, hence the selective narrative and propaganda.

How can you read these and still claim no link.

​


​

 

Philip

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Quoted from 1984:



Not exactly far off is it?



So far, this has seemed true.

From animal farm:



Our government has failed to notice this, hence the selective narrative and propaganda.

How can you read these and still claim no link.

​


​

Simply because these restrictions on liberty are temporary, we have a route out of the restrictions and the pandemic, protecting people's health and health services are good and non-dictator reasons for imposing them in the first place.
 

Domh245

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Simply because these restrictions on liberty are temporary, we have a route out of the restrictions and the pandemic, protecting people's health and health services are good and non-dictator reasons for imposing them in the first place.

I must have imagined you advocating to keep things closed for another year "just in case the vaccines don't work"
 

Philip

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I must have imagined you advocating to keep things closed for another year "just in case the vaccines don't work"

I never said or implied "in case the vaccines don't work". Or to keep things closed for another year.
 
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Domh245

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Stop exaggerating and twisting what I've been saying please.

This is your post right (amongst many others along a similar vein)?

No, it is because the pandemic isn't over and nor will vaccination be complete at that point, both in the UK and much more so globally. We don't yet have strong data about the effects the vaccines have on transmission, nor for how long vaccine immunity lasts for. In a year's time the situation will be a lot different because we'll have much clearer data in these areas.

I would also say that it is quite likely that many in the 'nightclub' age bracket won't have been vaccinated by the time nightclubs reopen, many of these clubbers could also be flying off for for foreign holidays in the same period (if they're allowed to), probably to countries whose vaccination status is no where near the level of UK. That's another reason why it is too soon. Perhaps the latter point could be helped by enforcing strict quarantine controls when arriving at the country of holiday destination, but then you will probably argue it is an infringement of human rights!

I fail to see how you can reconcile
we have a route out of the restrictions and the pandemic
with
We don't yet have strong data about the effects the vaccines have on transmission, nor for how long vaccine immunity lasts for. In a year's time the situation will be a lot different because we'll have much clearer data in these areas.

but I'd be happy to see it explained. "waiting and seeing" and keeping restrictions in place is not a way out...
 

Philip

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This is your post right (amongst many others along a similar vein)?



I fail to see how you can reconcile

with


but I'd be happy to see it explained. "waiting and seeing" and keeping restrictions in place is not a way out...

That's completely different from generalising saying the vaccines 'might not work'. And yes, restrictions on certain things do need to remain in place beyond June, but that doesn't equate to keeping lockdown going/denying people liberty as you seem to be implying.
 

Huntergreed

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That's completely different from generalising saying the vaccines 'might not work'.
We don't yet have strong data about the effects the vaccines have on transmission, nor for how long vaccine immunity lasts for. In a year's time the situation will be a lot different because we'll have much clearer data in these areas.
That is literally what you say, we don't have enough data to prove that they work (which we do).
And yes, restrictions on certain things do need to remain in place beyond June
Why and what restrictions?
but that doesn't equate to keeping lockdown going/denying people liberty as you seem to be implying.
Restrictions do, by definition, restrict and deny basic liberties.
 

Yew

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Then I suggest you look at the difference between propaganda (which that advertising undoubtedly is) and the way in which totalitarian regimes compel adherence. To start with, just try to imagine this forum in China...
The NHS clapping is a bit too close to the "Two minutes of hate" for my taste.
 

Gadget88

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What’s not being discussed is the app will allow a negative covid result. Now these tests privately cost around £120. Could need two a week or more how are we going to afford that to visit a pub?

I called for an open debate in society about this months ago seems we now are. People even ones who want the vaccine now see the danger you forget your phone your banned from the pub. Seems we are going jab crazy in the UK. People need to stand up to this otherwise it’s a slippery slope.
 

MikeWM

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I read it will be the NHS app rather than the NHS COVID-19 app, for what it's worth.

I didn't know there *was* an NHS app - I don't do apps, except for games. I'd rather use a website.

To start with, just try to imagine this forum in China...

The best way to avoid becoming more like China (which I would expect most of us would agree is better avoided) is not to take big steps in the same direction as them, and instead maintain the traditional freedoms and rights that citizens have enjoyed in western democracies for centuries.

The idea of a vaccine passport for domestic use - and what it would inevitably evolve into - would very much be such a step.

As would the idea that healthy people should be forced by the state to undergo medical treatment (that point currently being mostly being glossed over by discussion of practicalities, but it is *vitally* important).
 

greyman42

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I can. Have you ever seen the "look them in the eyes" propaganda posters designed to emotionally blackmail and keep you in line?
Does a significant amount of the population actually take these posters and adverts seriously? I certainly don't.
 
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