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Most Unreliable Locomotive

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43096

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Surely there is no greater (and funnier) unreliability story than the 31/4 story of summer 1988? (WARNING: LONG POST)
Perhaps now is a good time to point out that Class 47 has a good claim on this award, having been permanently de-rated due to their chronic unreliability. One summer of 31/4s versus 50 years for Duffs. Not really a contest!
 
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reddragon

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Perhaps now is a good time to point out that Class 47 has a good claim on this award, having been permanently de-rated due to their chronic unreliability. One summer of 31/4s versus 50 years for Duffs. Not really a contest!
Do 47s work? Y
Do they still exist? Y

Did class 21s work? N
 

gimmea50anyday

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The 47s had the advantage of safety in numbers. This led to widespread traction and depot knowledge and parts availability. The 47s were far from perfect but weren't exactly a failure given 512 of them were built.
 

Inversnecky

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The 47s had the advantage of safety in numbers. This led to widespread traction and depot knowledge and parts availability. The 47s were far from perfect but weren't exactly a failure given 512 of them were built.

I was surprised to see such a blot on the record of the 47, the class familiar to me more than any other in my youth.

Were the numbers produced before any issues became apparent?
 

DustyBin

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I was surprised to see such a blot on the record of the 47, the class familiar to me more than any other in my youth.

Were the numbers produced before any issues became apparent?

I imagine the issues must have been apparent before the end of production given the class took six(ish) years to build. Whether there were modifications made over the production period I’m not sure but it took many years to iron out the engine issues. In fact, I think it was actually Freightliner who finally solved them by derating theirs to 2400hp!
 

D1537

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I imagine the issues must have been apparent before the end of production given the class took six(ish) years to build. Whether there were modifications made over the production period I’m not sure but it took many years to iron out the engine issues. In fact, I think it was actually Freightliner who finally solved them by derating theirs to 2400hp!
Yes, once they were derated they were actually pretty reliable. It was pointed out on here that the stats for the 47s, 50s and 55s were actually pretty good considering they tended to be used on high-speed and/or heavy work - with the stresses on equipment that came with it - a lot more intensively than some of the classes that had a reputation for excellent reliability.
 

Richard Scott

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Yes, once they were derated they were actually pretty reliable. It was pointed out on here that the stats for the 47s, 50s and 55s were actually pretty good considering they tended to be used on high-speed and/or heavy work - with the stresses on equipment that came with it - a lot more intensively than some of the classes that had a reputation for excellent reliability.
Think we need to remember how hard our locos were worked. Reports that in early days of Warships a representative from Germany came over and couldn't believe the daily mileages we were expecting out of them. Can believe that from looking at allocations of locos abroad, often seen diagrams that are around 50% of allocation to that depot.
 

hexagon789

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I was surprised to see such a blot on the record of the 47, the class familiar to me more than any other in my youth.

Were the numbers produced before any issues became apparent?
There was the issue of the engine being uprated from 2,500hp to 2,750hp without certain complements being strengthened which led to a number of failures until downrating the engines to 2,580hp at the reduced speed of 750rpm broadly solved that.

As an aside, I know if one train timer (not a famous one), who timed 47s from the mid-60s until the early 2000s who never had a failure behind a 47.

And he wouldn't have been deliberately bigging up the class either, they weren't his favourite by any means - he vastly preferred Westerns! :lol:
 

Richard Scott

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As an aside, I know if one train timer (not a famous one), who timed 47s from the mid-60s until the early 2000s who never had a failure behind a 47.
Remember a failure doesn't need to be a complete sit-down but something that incurrs a delay of 10minutes or more (I believe this is the definition). Total sit downs, I've found were quite rare. I can remember five, afraid all attributable to a 47, 47470 from Inverness rescued by 37261, 47664 in Cheltenham, rescued by 47281and banked up Lickey by 37215, 47836 just outside Birmingham New Street rescued by 08805(!), 478xx at Bristol rescued by 37376 and another 478xx at Bristol and two 47s put on front!
 

hexagon789

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Remember a failure doesn't need to be a complete sit-down but something that incurrs a delay of 10minutes or more (I believe this is the definition). Total sit downs, I've found were quite rare. I can remember five, afraid all attributable to a 47, 47470 from Inverness rescued by 37261, 47664 in Cheltenham, rescued by 47281and banked up Lickey by 37215, 47836 just outside Birmingham New Street rescued by 08805(!), 478xx at Bristol rescued by 37376 and another 478xx at Bristol and two 47s put on front!
I can ask him what he meant by 'failure'
 

Richard Scott

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I can ask him what he meant by 'failure'
Usually think most take it as a total sit down as above but had plenty of delays due to loco fault (and units come to that) amounting to more than 10 minutes. Did remember another 47 incident after posting. Sat on Didcot avoiding line behind 50031, engine still running so wondered what was up as usually a running engine without any flashes and bangs having happened was a good sign! Found out 47 had collapsed on freight in front of us!
 

Clarence Yard

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Remember a failure doesn't need to be a complete sit-down but something that incurrs a delay of 10minutes or more (I believe this is the definition). Total sit downs, I've found were quite rare. I can remember five, afraid all attributable to a 47, 47470 from Inverness rescued by 37261, 47664 in Cheltenham, rescued by 47281and banked up Lickey by 37215, 47836 just outside Birmingham New Street rescued by 08805(!), 478xx at Bristol rescued by 37376 and another 478xx at Bristol and two 47s put on front!

It was 5 minutes or more for passenger trains when I was dealing with loco casualties in the 1970’s. I can’t remember if it was 10 or 15 minutes for freight - it’s too long ago!
 

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Remember a failure doesn't need to be a complete sit-down but something that incurrs a delay of 10minutes or more (I believe this is the definition). Total sit downs, I've found were quite rare. I can remember five, afraid all attributable to a 47, 47470 from Inverness rescued by 37261, 47664 in Cheltenham, rescued by 47281and banked up Lickey by 37215, 47836 just outside Birmingham New Street rescued by 08805(!), 478xx at Bristol rescued by 37376 and another 478xx at Bristol and two 47s put on front!

Three for me but that’s out of many many journeys.
One complete failure on Dainton bank, one at Pinhoe and one at Banbury (which was due to the fire bells going off).
 

Richard Scott

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Yes it was probably that. ;)
Joking apart you do get driver error failures. Remember speaking to someone who was a traction inspector many years ago and driver had failed a 47 at Paddington as wouldn't create brake. When he looked master handle was still in 'Off' position so no auxiliaries running. No wonder he couldn't get brakes created! Also saw a driver come out of 57604 and declare it a failure at Paddington. Bloke with hammer came along, heard a bang from engine room, he came out and declared "Fixed now". Got us to Penzance so he was right!
 

Cowley

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Joking apart you do get driver error failures. Remember speaking to someone who was a traction inspector many years ago and driver had failed a 47 at Paddington as wouldn't create brake. When he looked master handle was still in 'Off' position so no auxiliaries running. No wonder he couldn't get brakes created! Also saw a driver come out of 57604 and declare it a failure at Paddington. Bloke with hammer came along, heard a bang from engine room, he came out and declared "Fixed now". Got us to Penzance so he was right!

Love it.
During the summer time at Exeter st David’s in the 1980s there were always plenty of full watering cans sitting around on platform 3 so that the various decrepit DMUs could be topped up hurriedly before they headed off in various directions.
Some of those were pretty ropey by the time we received them to replace the Skippers (142s).
 

Richard Scott

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Love it.
During the summer time at Exeter st David’s in the 1980s there were always plenty of full watering cans sitting around on platform 3 so that the various decrepit DMUs could be topped up hurriedly before they headed off in various directions.
Some of those were pretty ropey by the time we received them to replace the Skippers (142s).
Oh yes, forgotten about the watering cans, many a DMU often filled up before journey could continue. Remember 50046 needing a drink at Salisbury, think hose pipe came out for that!
 

CW2

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My personal tally of failures looks something like this:

Class 20
1 pair that demultied on a railtour in Scotland, ground to a halt, got going again.
1 pair on a Carstairs - Edinburgh where a single loco shut down and the other loco continued unassisted after some delay.

Class 25
Despite their appalling reputation, I seldom experienced outright failures from them. One pair over the S&C on a railtour where the inside loco was providing heat only and the front loco traction only resulted in lengthy delays, and a few instances of engines shutting down but restarting OK.

Class 26
The very first pair I had failed on me! On a Glasgow - Inverness working the locos dropped out of multi in Cowlairs Tunnel so we slogged up the bank with only the front loco working. We made it to Cowlairs, where after a lengthy delay the locos were split and the inside loco then worked solo to Perth.
I've had one complete shutdown on an Edinburgh - Dunbar service. The loco coasted to a silent halt at Drem station, where we terminated.

Class 27
One outright failure at Kirkconnel on the 1730 Glasgow - Carlisle. Not a position of strength.
Several instances of locos low on power, causing significant delays. A source of amusement and exasperation in equal quantities.

Class 31
I avoided the Paignton fiascos referenced above - but still managed a few of my own.
When the Trans Pennine DMUs were replaced by 31s I had a few instances of low power. I just avoided a failure on the very first day, when I alighted from a struggling Leeds - Hull train at Selby, and it subsequently failed at Eastrington. (We found out the hard way that you need to start the day with a full tank of fuel on those diagrams!).
I also suffered when I took a pair on the morning Paddington - Manchester for a pair of 37s on the Birmingham - Ramsgate. We had lost time en route, but I thought we could make the 37s at International. We didn't. What's more I was en route to Ramsgate at the start of a Continental holiday, so this wasn't a good start.

Class 33
Never had one fail on me. I hold these locos in high regard.

Class 37
A class I've spent a lot of time with over the years. A couple of stand-out failures. One at Curriehill on an Edinburgh - Carstairs portion working, which snarled the job up for some time, and one at Lentran on the Sundays Inverness - Lairg. Another was at Corrour on a Fort William - Glasgow daytime working. One I managed to avoid was when there was a return footex run from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen. The ECS was returning to Cowlairs, so a few bashers of the more adventurous nature decided to bunk it rather than wait for a 47/4 back at 05:00. Sadly the loco failed at Errol on the return ECS, and the guard decided he didn't want any uninvited interlopers around when the assisting loco showed up, so they ended up walking from Errol to Perth. Generally the class 37 did more rescuing of other failures than it ever incurred itself.

Class 40
I'm a long-time fan of these locos, but I have to admit they were very marginal in the radiator capacity, so prone to overheating. Other quirks were occasional air leaks from the control air system causing the loco to refuse to rev faster than a slow idle. Outright failure locations included Little Bytham, Dumfries, Farnley Branch Junction, and Princes Street Gardens. Many hours were spent waiting for class 40s to turn up late - or not at all.

Class 43 (HST)
Several failures to depart from Paddington during my time commuting into London. Only one outright failure on the line. I boarded a Newcastle - Kings Cross HST at York as the first leg of a trip to Poland. Both power cars were running but only the rear one was powering. At St Neots we ground to a halt and sat there for a couple of hours whilst a 31 was fired up at Peterborough to rescue us.

Class 45
Generally a solid if unspectacular performer. Only one outright failure, on a Liverpool - Newcastle service where the brakes could not be released after application at Chaloners Whin Junction. Eventually the York station pilot - an 08 - hauled us the rest of the way to York loose coupled!.

Class 46
Similar to the 45s, i.e. not my favoured type of traction, but I had to do a fair bit of travelling with them at one time or another. No outright failures.

Class 47
The scenes of my complete class 47 failures are:
-3 miles west of Marsden
- Quedgeley Junction
- York (having lost 90 minutes in running from Edinburgh)
- Chevington Loop
- Leeds
- Retford
- Dumfries
- Shap Summit
- Daw Mill Colliery
- Westbourne Park
Add to that the myriad array of partial traction failures, boiler failures, and general air of withering despair which I can't be bothered to list. Draw your own conclusions.

Class 50
One loco on a Plymouth - Birmingham kept shutting down, so we stopped on the curve at Gloucester for a can of oil. 30 mins delay.
On the same train on another date the loco was feeling poorly so we diverted into Gloucester station and re-engined there for a 47.
Finally in NSE days I noticed the loco on my train home from Paddington to Reading was suddenly cutting out at 95 mph, and each time it did so there was a puff of smoke from beneath the loco (which I suspect was a traction motor flashover). We stopped at Maidenhead after a report of fire, then continued to Reading where the train terminated. The loco transferred to Laira, had a Main Gen flashover within a week, and was withdrawn.
Generally a pretty good record - although I didn't do much on the Waterloo - Exeter route where they proved to be rather fallible.

Class 55
Only one outright failure, several miles south of Carstairs in a blizzard. Plenty of instances of running on one engine and losing time.

Other
I never had a failure with a Western, although my mileage off them was quite limited. I had a 56 on the Nuneaton dragging sit down on me once - and it was one of the UK built ones, almost brand new at the time.

By contrast I've had very few AC loco failures, despite racking up some decent distances.
 

D1537

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Remember a failure doesn't need to be a complete sit-down but something that incurrs a delay of 10minutes or more (I believe this is the definition). Total sit downs, I've found were quite rare.
Prior to the 1980s, one of the common reasons for recorded failures on passenger trains for Class 47s (and indeed Class 31, 37, 40, 45, 46 and others for that matter) used not to be a traction failure but issues with steam boilers resulting in the locomotive having to be replaced. The Spanner boilers in some 47s (and, I think, half the Class 46s and a lot of 31s) were supposedly particularly troublesome.
 

Journeyman

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I would like to go out on a whim, and nominate the class 57 as an unreliable locomotive.

My reasons are:-

1) most of the 57/0's are laid up. My tour of carnforth 2 years ago, and, the diesel guy said 57006 is basically a source of spare parts, it won't run again. The number of DRS 57/0's laid up, is testament to this.

2) the GWR 57/6's aren't exactly known for their reliabilty, especially when other loco's had to rescue the night Riviera due to locomotive failure. GWR had to hire in 57/3"s to cover for them.

I just thought I would put that out there. I stand to be corrected. The reliability of the 57/6's has improved since, possibly due to the 57/0's being used as spare parts!
Aren't the 57s laid up more because there's no work for them, rather than a reliability issue?
 

Richard Scott

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Aren't the 57s laid up more because there's no work for them, rather than a reliability issue?
Some of them must have been rebuilt nigh on 20years ago, that's almost a lifetime for some locos anyway. Even if they now are past their best, still been a good investment.
 

Journeyman

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Some of them must have been rebuilt nigh on 20years ago, that's almost a lifetime for some locos anyway. Even if they now are past their best, still been a good investment.
Yeah, I don't think retiring them is entirely unreasonable! I got the impression they were converted quickly to cover a shortage of locos, and that's no longer a problem.
 

DustyBin

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My personal tally of failures looks something like this:

Class 20
1 pair that demultied on a railtour in Scotland, ground to a halt, got going again.
1 pair on a Carstairs - Edinburgh where a single loco shut down and the other loco continued unassisted after some delay.

Class 25
Despite their appalling reputation, I seldom experienced outright failures from them. One pair over the S&C on a railtour where the inside loco was providing heat only and the front loco traction only resulted in lengthy delays, and a few instances of engines shutting down but restarting OK.

Class 26
The very first pair I had failed on me! On a Glasgow - Inverness working the locos dropped out of multi in Cowlairs Tunnel so we slogged up the bank with only the front loco working. We made it to Cowlairs, where after a lengthy delay the locos were split and the inside loco then worked solo to Perth.
I've had one complete shutdown on an Edinburgh - Dunbar service. The loco coasted to a silent halt at Drem station, where we terminated.

Class 27
One outright failure at Kirkconnel on the 1730 Glasgow - Carlisle. Not a position of strength.
Several instances of locos low on power, causing significant delays. A source of amusement and exasperation in equal quantities.

Class 31
I avoided the Paignton fiascos referenced above - but still managed a few of my own.
When the Trans Pennine DMUs were replaced by 31s I had a few instances of low power. I just avoided a failure on the very first day, when I alighted from a struggling Leeds - Hull train at Selby, and it subsequently failed at Eastrington. (We found out the hard way that you need to start the day with a full tank of fuel on those diagrams!).
I also suffered when I took a pair on the morning Paddington - Manchester for a pair of 37s on the Birmingham - Ramsgate. We had lost time en route, but I thought we could make the 37s at International. We didn't. What's more I was en route to Ramsgate at the start of a Continental holiday, so this wasn't a good start.

Class 33
Never had one fail on me. I hold these locos in high regard.

Class 37
A class I've spent a lot of time with over the years. A couple of stand-out failures. One at Curriehill on an Edinburgh - Carstairs portion working, which snarled the job up for some time, and one at Lentran on the Sundays Inverness - Lairg. Another was at Corrour on a Fort William - Glasgow daytime working. One I managed to avoid was when there was a return footex run from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen. The ECS was returning to Cowlairs, so a few bashers of the more adventurous nature decided to bunk it rather than wait for a 47/4 back at 05:00. Sadly the loco failed at Errol on the return ECS, and the guard decided he didn't want any uninvited interlopers around when the assisting loco showed up, so they ended up walking from Errol to Perth. Generally the class 37 did more rescuing of other failures than it ever incurred itself.

Class 40
I'm a long-time fan of these locos, but I have to admit they were very marginal in the radiator capacity, so prone to overheating. Other quirks were occasional air leaks from the control air system causing the loco to refuse to rev faster than a slow idle. Outright failure locations included Little Bytham, Dumfries, Farnley Branch Junction, and Princes Street Gardens. Many hours were spent waiting for class 40s to turn up late - or not at all.

Class 43 (HST)
Several failures to depart from Paddington during my time commuting into London. Only one outright failure on the line. I boarded a Newcastle - Kings Cross HST at York as the first leg of a trip to Poland. Both power cars were running but only the rear one was powering. At St Neots we ground to a halt and sat there for a couple of hours whilst a 31 was fired up at Peterborough to rescue us.

Class 45
Generally a solid if unspectacular performer. Only one outright failure, on a Liverpool - Newcastle service where the brakes could not be released after application at Chaloners Whin Junction. Eventually the York station pilot - an 08 - hauled us the rest of the way to York loose coupled!.

Class 46
Similar to the 45s, i.e. not my favoured type of traction, but I had to do a fair bit of travelling with them at one time or another. No outright failures.

Class 47
The scenes of my complete class 47 failures are:
-3 miles west of Marsden
- Quedgeley Junction
- York (having lost 90 minutes in running from Edinburgh)
- Chevington Loop
- Leeds
- Retford
- Dumfries
- Shap Summit
- Daw Mill Colliery
- Westbourne Park
Add to that the myriad array of partial traction failures, boiler failures, and general air of withering despair which I can't be bothered to list. Draw your own conclusions.

Class 50
One loco on a Plymouth - Birmingham kept shutting down, so we stopped on the curve at Gloucester for a can of oil. 30 mins delay.
On the same train on another date the loco was feeling poorly so we diverted into Gloucester station and re-engined there for a 47.
Finally in NSE days I noticed the loco on my train home from Paddington to Reading was suddenly cutting out at 95 mph, and each time it did so there was a puff of smoke from beneath the loco (which I suspect was a traction motor flashover). We stopped at Maidenhead after a report of fire, then continued to Reading where the train terminated. The loco transferred to Laira, had a Main Gen flashover within a week, and was withdrawn.
Generally a pretty good record - although I didn't do much on the Waterloo - Exeter route where they proved to be rather fallible.

Class 55
Only one outright failure, several miles south of Carstairs in a blizzard. Plenty of instances of running on one engine and losing time.

Other
I never had a failure with a Western, although my mileage off them was quite limited. I had a 56 on the Nuneaton dragging sit down on me once - and it was one of the UK built ones, almost brand new at the time.

By contrast I've had very few AC loco failures, despite racking up some decent distances.

Interesting, thanks!
 

Inversnecky

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By contrast I've had very few AC loco failures, despite racking up some decent distances.

Appreciate the time taken to recount this litany of failure!

Not sure if you've perused the thread on the AC electrics (81-87) on the Nostalgia and History subforum, but have you any experience with the 84s? These were supposed to be particularly unreliable?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I should really have combined the two types of train together, but a bit late now, so I've created a similarly veined thread for unreliable DMUs/EMUs.
 
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Ribbleman

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Class 28 Metrovick Co-Bo. They used 2 as opposed to 4 stroke engines which proved unreliable to the extent that the entire class was returned to the manufacturers for remedial work, also to cure the problem of cab windows falling out. The engines continued to be unreliable and the entire class withdrawn 1967/8 after only 11 years of service.
I had a friend whose father used to travel from Millom to Barrow and back each day. On more than one occasion in the mid-Sixties the station staff at Millom greeted a string of passengers walking north along the four foot. Ticket refunds followed the exchange of information -“ Co-Bo broken down again!”. As stated above, eventually BR gave up the struggle to make them work. There can’t have been many mainline diesels towed away for scrap by steam locos.
 

Grumpy

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“ Co-Bo broken down again!”. As stated above, eventually BR gave up the struggle to make them work. There can’t have been many mainline diesels towed away for scrap by steam locos.
I wonder what effect maintenance facilities had on this. By the mid 60's most diesels were being maintained in newly built or specifically converted buildings. I only visited Barrow shed a couple of times, and the memory plays tricks, but I only recall Co-Bo's in the old steam shed alongside the steam locos. I don't remember a separate diesel facility
 
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